LOR for forgettable student

[IRdreams]

What do you do when you are asked for a LOR from an unremarkable/bellow average student?

[adinutzyc]

I don't know what I'd do, since it's an awkward situation, but I know what a professor of mine did to other students. He just said no, and advised them to find someone to find someone else that'd think higher of them or whatever. In any case, tell them that the rec letter you write them won't be a stellar one, and that it'd more likely hurt their chances. They might think you're a jerk, but they deserve to know in order to be able to ask someone else (or give up applying?). Otherwise it's a waste of both your time and theirs.

[ktel]

I would be honest and tell them that you won't be able to write them a strong reference letter. If they have nobody else to ask, maybe just write it if you feel sympathetic towards them, but at least you've told them you don't think it will be very good.

[fuzzylogician]

Describe what you could write in a letter (I assume it's, at most, a DWIC) and tell them it won't be a strong letter; if it's even worse, tell them this kind of letter may hurt more than help. Depending on what you could actually put in the letter, you may want to simply discourage the student from asking or you may want to outright refuse to write the letter. It feels terrible to have to do this but in the long run, you're helping this student create a stronger application.

[harpyemma]

Ideally, students will have the foresight not simply to ask if one can write a letter of recommendation but if one can write them a strong letter of recommendation.

However, that's obviously not a commonplace occurrence. If i had a forgettable student ask for a letter, i think i would give them the benefit of the doubt and rather than flat-out refuse i would ask them to send me copies of their work and tell me more about why they want to pursue graduate study. I'm not arrogant enough to assume that if i can't remember a student that must be their error rather than mine--none of us is perfect.

If, on the other hand, the student just wasn't up to scratch (or it turned out that the forgettable student was forgettable for a reason), I'd tell them that it would be a bad idea for me to write a letter as it would not be a positive one and would certainly hinder their attempts to pursue graduate study. I would probably discourage them from applying altogether.

I think it would be pointlessly cruel not to make the student aware of the lay of the land in this respect, saying yes to all requests, however poor the student. The student's poor performance in your class is "punishment" enough for their lack of effort/ability; getting their hopes up and allowing them to spend hundreds of dollars on applications that will no doubt lead nowhere would be rather beyond the pale, i think.

[Sigaba]

Ideally, students will have the foresight not simply to ask if one can write a letter of recommendation but if one can write them a strong letter of recommendation.

However, that's obviously not a commonplace occurrence. If i had a forgettable student ask for a letter, i think i would give them the benefit of the doubt and rather than flat-out refuse i would ask them to send me copies of their work and tell me more about why they want to pursue graduate study. I'm not arrogant enough to assume that if i can't remember a student that must be their error rather than mine--none of us is perfect.

If, on the other hand, the student just wasn't up to scratch (or it turned out that the forgettable student was forgettable for a reason), I'd tell them that it would be a bad idea for me to write a letter as it would not be a positive one and would certainly hinder their attempts to pursue graduate study. I would probably discourage them from applying altogether.

I think it would be pointlessly cruel not to make the student aware of the lay of the land in this respect, saying yes to all requests, however poor the student. The student's poor performance in your class is "punishment" enough for their lack of effort/ability; getting their hopes up and allowing them to spend hundreds of dollars on applications that will no doubt lead nowhere would be rather beyond the pale, i think.

I very strongly disagree with this post. An educator's primary mission is to enable students so that they can achieve goals they define.

[harpyemma]

I very strongly disagree with this post. An educator's primary mission is to enable students so that they can achieve goals they define.

So, what? How far would you take that "mission"? It is my duty now to lie in a LOR to enable a substandard, uncommitted student to get into grad school? Or to lie to a student, saying one thing ("i will write you a good letter") and doing another?

I think it's perfectly reasonable and indeed ethical to refuse to write a letter if you know it won't be a good one. And if the work they produced for you indicates that they won't do well in grad school--and, come on, grad school is not for everyone and it's not a holy grail--then i really think it's kind to tell them so. If it's a blip and they're acing their other classes, they can always ask their instructors in those classes to write letters instead.

[Sigaba]

So, what? How far would you take that "mission"? It is my duty now to lie in a LOR to enable a substandard, uncommitted student to get into grad school? Or to lie to a student, saying one thing ("i will write you a good letter") and doing another?

Everyone must decide how much they're going to invest in their teaching. Given the mentors who taught me the craft of teaching, the choice was clear when it was my responsibility to stand in front of students. Nothing, not even preparing for a conference presentation and studying for qualifying exams, was more important than the undergraduates I was tasked to teach.

So I respectfully suggest an alternate set of questions.

• How about telling students on the first day of class that, if they're going to need LoRs, they should to come to office hours and talk about ways to put themselves in position to get the best LoR possible?
  
• How about re-enforcing this message in subsequent class meetings?
  
• How about mentoring students so that they can take themselves and their coursework more seriously?
  
• How about helping students to develop the skills they'll need to get into graduate school and to thrive when they get there?
  
• How about showing that you're committed (rather than dedicated) to your students and their success?
  

In a previous post, you said something about arrogance. I ask you this. Is it a sign of humility that you assume you know what it takes to get admitted into a graduate program given the fact that you yourself are not yet a professor who makes these decisions?

Yes, you do have an ethical responsibility to disclose to a student that you cannot write a strong LoR. However, is it really your job to dissuade someone from applying to a program? In performing that task, whose interests are you really advancing? Yours or your students'?

[runonsentence]

FWIW, it's possible that the OP is referring to a different kind of situation—I taught mostly freshman during my MA, and several asked me for letters for local scholarships and the like, not grad school.

OP, my advice mirrors others' here: simply let the student know that it will be difficult for you to write a strong one at this point because of X, Y, and Z. (For example, "Well, I'm willing to, but at this point I can't say that I knew you very well because my attendance roster shows you were absent for half of our class meetings so far, and if you'll remember the feedback I gave you on your last essay draft, I feel like I haven't been seeing your best work so far.")

If you want to be kinder about it, you can tell the student what kind of performance it would take for you to consider the student having turned a new leaf ("I'll feel better able to write a strong letter if your next essay draft were really strong and your attendance improved"). Maybe that will have the dual benefit of allowing you to write the letter and also turn around the student's class performance.

[IRdreams]

Thank you all for the replies. This is not a grad admission's letter. I first handled the situation by suggesting what sort of person would be the ideal letter writer for them. I had hoped the student would get the hint that I was not an appropriate choice. This did not happen and so I have agreed to write the letter with the caveat that it will be weakly positive. It seems I may be the students only choice and I do not hold such strong views that I am unwilling to write for them, but simply do not believe I can write a strong letter on their behalf.

When I say the student was forgettable, this does not mean that I forgot the student, it just was that I was relatively unimpressed with them, but did not view them negatively per se. This student rarely if ever spoke in class, never came to office hours, and received middling marks. Furthermore, the class was not the sort of course from which a good letter derives. It had two short discussion papers and tests. In the social sciences, one generally asks for a letter from someone who they have worked on a significant assignment with, like a research paper. I did not design the syllabus but these types of assignments inherently do not allow a lot of room for students to express their originality.

Unfrotunately, this student is from a class I taught last spring so giving the student the ability to turn over a new leaf is no longer a possibility. I do think that when I teach in the future I will have a section of my syllabus that discusses what a student should do if they would like a good letter. Thank you for this great advice specifically.

[Sigaba]

never came to office hours,

Please consider the mutual benefits of having each and every one of your students come to your office after they get back the first graded assignment of a term. Or, at the very least, have the ones who receive grades below a certain mark. In my experience, this is a very time consuming task but worth it.

[l.greg45]

I'd tell them that it would be a bad idea for me to write a letter as it would not be a positive one and would certainly hinder their attempts to pursue graduate study. I would probably discourage them from applying altogether.

[Remember]

I'd tell them that it would be a bad idea for me to write a letter as it would not be a positive one and would certainly hinder their attempts to pursue graduate study. I would probably discourage them from applying altogether.

You would discourage a student from applying to a program just because you cannot write him a letter?

[Sigaba]

So, what? How far would you take that "mission"? It is my duty now to lie in a LOR to enable a substandard, uncommitted student to get into grad school? Or to lie to a student, saying one thing ("i will write you a good letter") and doing another?

IMO, an educator has the perogative to not write a LOR, but the following is, IMO, unethical.

I would probably discourage them from applying altogether.

Guiding a student towards managing expectations is one thing. Attempting to convince a student to not try at all is quite another.

YMMV.

[natsteel]

Everyone must decide how much they're going to invest in their teaching. Given the mentors who taught me the craft of teaching, the choice was clear when it was my responsibility to stand in front of students. Nothing, not even preparing for a conference presentation and studying for qualifying exams, was more important than the undergraduates I was tasked to teach.

So I respectfully suggest an alternate set of questions.

• How about telling students on the first day of class that, if they're going to need LoRs, they should to come to office hours and talk about ways to put themselves in position to get the best LoR possible?
  
• How about re-enforcing this message in subsequent class meetings?
  
• How about mentoring students so that they can take themselves and their coursework more seriously?
  
• How about helping students to develop the skills they'll need to get into graduate school and to thrive when they get there?
  
• How about showing that you're committed (rather than dedicated) to your students and their success?
  

In a previous post, you said something about arrogance. I ask you this. Is it a sign of humility that you assume you know what it takes to get admitted into a graduate program given the fact that you yourself are not yet a professor who makes these decisions?

Yes, you do have an ethical responsibility to disclose to a student that you cannot write a strong LoR. However, is it really your job to dissuade someone from applying to a program? In performing that task, whose interests are you really advancing? Yours or your students'?

I have to disagree with the final part of your post, Sigaba. Your bulleted suggestions are well taken, but none of those suggestions in and of themselves will keep someone from getting LOR requests from underwhelming students. Those types of students are not often the kind to reach out for extra help such as visiting office hours and the like.

(NOTE: Keep in mind I am speaking from a Humanities point of view.) Considering the academic job market, I think it is actually a responsible decision on the part of an advisor or even potential referee to dissuade a clearly under-qualified candidate from spending hundreds of dollars on graduate school applications or, even worse, taking out thousands (if not tens of thousands) in (now) unsubsidized loans if they happen to get into a bottom-feeding, cashcow program (likely without funding) all in pursuit of what is quickly turning into a highly elusive goal even for students at the "top" universities.

Also, let me be clear... When I say "dissuade," I mean pointing out the immense competition the student will face from applicants even to mid-level programs with far superior records and achievements. It would also include pointing out the dire realities of the academic job market. If they still want to apply anyway, then fine. But, for me, it's more unethical to assist in that situation than desist regardless of the fact that they designed the goal of going to graduate school themselves.

To the OP's OQ, you could simply tell the student that if they are really serious about graduate school, they would need a letter from someone more familiar with their work. If that student had actually taken multiple classes with you, then you may have to be frank and simply say that, "Based on your work in my classes, I'm afraid I wouldn't be able to write you a strong enough letter to get into a good program." But following that conversation with one about the intense competition and dim job prospects is advancing the student's interest especially if these are things of which they are unaware.

[Sigaba]

But, for me, it's more unethical to assist in that situation than desist regardless of the fact that they designed the goal of going to graduate school themselves.

nasteel--

I think I addressed your concern in post #14 when I mentioned guiding a student towards managing expectations. Again, it is an admission committee's job, not a graduate student's, to make the determination of who gets in and who doesn't.

FWIW, one of the "unremarkable students" whom two of you would have told not to bother to try is now a dual hatted TT assistant professor at a UC campus.

Edited December 4, 2011 by Sigaba

[mandarin.orange]

I wrote several recs as a high school teacher. If asked, I held firm with our guidance office's policy of a three-week lead time. I generally found the truly poor and forgettable students would self-select themselves out, because they were asking way too last minute. So, I could decline and simply cite this reason.

In other cases, I'd query about the student's long-term goals. If their class with me didn't really relate, or I hadn't taught them since the 9th grade, I'd gently suggest they ask specific junior- or senior-level teachers, and stress that this looks better to college adcoms and would improve their chances.

In a few cases, students I NEVER would have initially guessed approached me for a letter of rec. If they gave me lots of lead-time and were super responsible, I saw this as an opportunity to get to know them better. I also requested individual meetings with them to talk about goals, accomplishments outside my class, etc. and asked if they could provide resumes, answer questionnaires about what they had gotten out of my class, forward personal essays they were submitting for other parts of the app, etc. If a student delivered all this to me, I had plenty of fodder and could easily write them a rec.

A rather quiet, poorly-testing student approached me to write a rec for a scholarship last year. Everything I asked for, she delivered, and I was impressed to discover her long track record of community service. Since this was a service-oriented scholarship, I just framed my letter differently. It also forced me to reflect on her other work in my class, and realize she was very diligent about her projects and other preparedness for class, as a way to compensate for not testing well. Despite her not having a mind for science, I am proud of my role in helping her secure her scholarship. I could tell it meant the world to her, and I would do it again in a heartbeat.

[eco_env]

I haven't been a TA yet, but being on the other side of asking for letters, I wouldn't want a recommendation letter from someone who doesn't feel like they can say good things about me. Just tell the student and they'll ask someone else, who might be able to write a better letter. Sometimes it's hard for a student to know who will be able to write a good letter for them.

[natsteel]

nasteel--

I think I addressed your concern in post #14 when I mentioned guiding a student towards managing expectations. Again, it is an admission committee's job, not a graduate student's, to make the determination of who gets in and who doesn't.

FWIW, one of the "unremarkable students" whom two of you would have told not to bother to try is now a dual hatted TT assistant professor at a UC campus.

I should have made clearer that my comments were not specifically aimed at advising an undergraduate as a graduate student, which I now realize was the focus of the question. I was instead speaking of what I considered to be the responsibility of a professor.

Furthermore, I don't know why you are putting "unremarkable students" in quote when responding to my post since I wrote "clearly underqualified," which is far different than "unremarkable." I also don't know how effective it is to use an outlier as an example for supporting your argument. Of course there are "unremarkable students" who have gone on to decent careers in all fields, but they are the exception rather than the rule.

If a student who had taken two classes with me and gotten two C's and asked me for a recommendation to graduate school, I would do exactly what I said above. That's because a student who gets C's in their major classes is "clearly underqualified" for graduate school. If I had a student who had gotten two B's, that would be "unremarkable" and I would still give them the speech about the competition involved in applying to graduate programs and tell them about the realities of the job market (as I would to even a straight-A student). Any student that would be considering graduate school in history, regardless of their grades, without a clear understanding of the way academia and the job market works, could be considered unprepared to make such a weighty decision which could affect the rest of their lives. Making them aware of this is, as I wrote (and defined) in the post above, what I meant by "dissuade," but which you could just as easily call "advising."

[Sigaba]

@nasteel Have you shared this view with any of your professors, advisors, or mentors? Have you disclosed this sensibility in front of those undergraduates you've supported as a teaching assistant?

[litjust]

Of course there are "unremarkable students" who have gone on to decent careers in all fields, but they are the exception rather than the rule.

That's because a student who gets C's in their major classes is "clearly underqualified" for graduate school.... Any student that would be considering graduate school in history, regardless of their grades, without a clear understanding of the way academia and the job market works, could be considered unprepared to make such a weighty decision which could affect the rest of their lives. Making them aware of this is, as I wrote (and defined) in the post above, what I meant by "dissuade," but which you could just as easily call "advising."

Since the larger issue might be related to a student's unawareness of the competitive nature of academia (especially if the student is a first-generation college student) and her/his grades might be connected to several other responsibilities held, hardships experienced, or anything other than an inherent "under qualification" that you mention; what would you suggest the student do to bring up her/his qualifications? It always bothers me when absolute statements such as "clearly underqualified" are made. Grades do not always equate knowledge. If your teaching is the common denominator for a student who earned two C's, do you ever reflect on your teaching practices and what steps you took to help that student earn a higher grade? How would you help this student prepare? If someone expresses an interest in pursuing graduate study, in my opinion, passion and desire becomes the initial qualification. Students with less than stellar grades should not be dissuaded from pursuing graduate study.

[Bimmerman]

Also, not everyone who pursues graduate study wants to be an academic, even in non-science fields. Telling them about the difficulties inherent in finding an academic job is great, but refusing to write them a letter because you don't think they would be a good academic without knowing what they want to do with their degree is wrong in my opinion.

[Andsowego]

I've written reference letters for students for grad school entry - and I always decline to write the letter if I know it won't be completely glowing. Even if I know the student to be good academically in the particular course I taught, I still ask for the following (and if they don't provide it or if I don't feel comfortable with what they send, I decline): 1) a copy of their current professional cv/resume; and 2) a sample of their work (e.g., a copy of their research proposal - usually 2 pages, or whatever they've done to meet application requirements, maybe a writing sample). After reviewing these items, I've still said no on a couple of occasions. The rule of thumb for me is as follows: If someone from the university the student has applied to is going to potentially call me on the phone, and wants to follow-up on my reference, I have to be able to be 100% honest in that conversation. After all, it's my reputation as a professional that is on the line too, not just the admission of the student! If I can't envision myself being completely honest, I know I shouldn't be writing the reference. I also don't see it as my job to tell students that they're not grad school material (who am I to decide that when I'm still a PhD student myself and perhaps don't know everything about their personal context?). I'm just honest with them, and say that I don't believe I'm the absolute best choice for providing an academic reference in this particular situation, but that I wish them nothing but success, etc.

[isobel_a]

Also, not everyone who pursues graduate study wants to be an academic, even in non-science fields. Telling them about the difficulties inherent in finding an academic job is great, but refusing to write them a letter because you don't think they would be a good academic without knowing what they want to do with their degree is wrong in my opinion.

Agreed. This is especially important to consider in the sciences, where many people go into PhD programs knowing full well they will never be on a tenure track, and many don't even want to be.

I think declining to write a letter for someone because they have a B or two in their major courses is absurd. I don't know where Natsteel teaches, but at my alma mater, in my major, a B+ was considered a very respectable grade. I graduated from my first bachelor's program (I'm finishing up my second now) with a B+ average (~3.4). I had several professors try to encourage me to apply to grad school, although at that time I was eager to join the workforce. One of these professors wrote me a letter for my current program. If I'd followed your advice, I'd have dropped any professional or academic ambition I had because I wasn't "competitive" with my B+. And here I sit now with interviews at several top 10 programs in my new field...

Heaven help us if grade inflation is so out of control that the only people who can hope to get decent letters of recommendation have a perfect 4.0!

[LawlQuals]

I think declining to write a letter for someone because they have a B or two in their major courses is absurd. I don't know where Natsteel teaches, but at my alma mater

The disagreement here I think is being more pronounced because of people not addressing different fields. Natsteel is in the humanities, grades mean different things in different fields. I agree, a B+ is a respectable grade, so is a B in physical sciences and engineering. At my alma maters, the average grade in classes where letter grades were assigned as per a distribution was a C or B-. Getting a C or B- would be unremarkable to me, but getting two of those in your major classes is not something I feel is warrant to pass immediate judgment on the student's absolute capability, dubbing them underqualified. To each their own though.