LOR for forgettable student

[mechengr2000]

I very strongly disagree with this post. An educator's primary mission is to enable students so that they can achieve goals they define.

Huh? Someone he barely knows is asking for a letter of reference. What is he supposed to say in his letter? It's supposed to serve as a character reference! You can't write a letter of reference for someone you meet in an elevator, even if they tell you what goals they are pursuing. You are recommending them based on evidence of what YOU have seen. More importantly, You are providing character testimony, which is what the resume and application can't give. How can you write a letter of reference for someone you think of as "forgettable" ?

[orangeMan]

I personally find overenthusiastic students obnoxious. It's like they have nothing better to do or something. As they say, you can't polish a turd.

[orangeMan]

Professors can write a great letter of recommendation based on a transcript. It's not up to them to decide whether an applicant is qualified to go to grad school. How arrogant of them!

[edost]

I've been a TA and nobody asked me for a LOR. In fact, I'd be surprised if they did. I think LORs should be from professors, not grad students, even if it isn't an application for grad school. Wouldn't people reading it find it suspicious that the letter is from a TA?

[litjust]

I've been a TA and nobody asked me for a LOR. In fact, I'd be surprised if they did. I think LORs should be from professors, not grad students, even if it isn't an application for grad school. Wouldn't people reading it find it suspicious that the letter is from a TA?

If grad TA's are on their way to being professors and are currently experiencing the rigors of grad school, why would a letter from them be suspicious? Especially if the TA was the sole instructor in the course. When I was completing my masters one of my courses was taught by a doc student, because the professor who ordinarily would have taught the course was on sabbatical. In that case, he was my instructor. Also, two of my letter writers were former TA's (they have now completed their studies/dissertations and are full time professors - which might make a difference) who I have continued to complete community activist work and research with post-graduation. My third writer was a former professor and emerging rock star in her field, which is my field of interest. Generally, I thought students should select writers who can provide the strongest recommendations. But, I guess this might be different across fields(?)

Edited January 14, 2012 by litjust

[tauren]

If grad TA's are on their way to being professors and are currently experiencing the rigors of grad school, why would a letter from them be suspicious? Especially if the TA was the sole instructor in the course. When I was completing my masters one of my courses was taught by a doc student, because the professor who ordinarily would have taught the course was on sabbatical. In that case, he was my instructor. Also, two of my letter writers were former TA's (they have now completed their studies/dissertations and are full time professors - which might make a difference) who I have continued to complete community activist work and research with post-graduation. My third writer was a former professor and emerging rock star in her field, which is my field of interest. Generally, I thought students should select writers who can provide the strongest recommendations. But, I guess this might be different across fields(?)

I do believe this is field dependent. Getting a GTA to write for an internship or scholarship is okay, but grad student letters (at least what I've heard from mentors on admissions committees) hold little but usually NO weight on decisions in to grad programs.

I don't professors should write letters for students they may have just had in class. They have nothing to tell the admissions committee except that they passed and showed up. I think there has to be actual interaction between the student and professor. And a transcript will not tell a professor anything when being asked to write a letter without supporting materials like Andsowego asks for. Professors aren't required to write letters when there is nothing to say. There seems to be a sense of entitlement people have that since they *gasp* attended class they should get a letter.

[ktel]

Huh? Someone he barely knows is asking for a letter of reference. What is he supposed to say in his letter? It's supposed to serve as a character reference! You can't write a letter of reference for someone you meet in an elevator, even if they tell you what goals they are pursuing. You are recommending them based on evidence of what YOU have seen. More importantly, You are providing character testimony, which is what the resume and application can't give. How can you write a letter of reference for someone you think of as "forgettable" ?

In my opinion you complete misinterpreted what Sigaba was saying. He wasn't saying it's the educator's responsibility to write a letter, he was saying it is irresponsible for an educator to discourage someone from applying to grad school.

Professors can write a great letter of recommendation based on a transcript. It's not up to them to decide whether an applicant is qualified to go to grad school. How arrogant of them!

I wouldn't say professors can write a "great" letter based solely on a transcript. I would say they could write a mediocre letter that would be sufficient if you didn't have any other options.

[Sigaba]

Huh? Someone he barely knows is asking for a letter of reference. What is he supposed to say in his letter? It's supposed to serve as a character reference! You can't write a letter of reference for someone you meet in an elevator, even if they tell you what goals they are pursuing. You are recommending them based on evidence of what YOU have seen. More importantly, You are providing character testimony, which is what the resume and application can't give. How can you write a letter of reference for someone you think of as "forgettable" ?

I think you are responding to an argument I have not offered. Please read post #14.

[isobel_a]

Some of these threads really go off on tangents...

I'd object to the notion that LORs are "character references"... they're supposed to highlight the academic potential of a student. I've heard that letters that consist mostly of "X student is the friendliest student I've ever had", or dwell more on personal qualities than academic preparation, are not considered good letters. They're considered fluff written by people who may like the student personally but have no real clue whether they're ready for grad school. If you've known a student to cheat, or steal, or defraud the university, of course you shouldn't write a letter - or you should mention it in the letter. But still, "character references" are not what adcoms are looking for.

Edit: My first degree was in the humanities, FWIW.

Edit2: Things may be different in the U.K. But in the U.S., "character references", such as the type you'd get from a former employer, are considered worthless in grad school admissions.

Edited January 15, 2012 by isobel_a

[Sigaba]

I've been a TA and nobody asked me for a LOR. In fact, I'd be surprised if they did. I think LORs should be from professors, not grad students, even if it isn't an application for grad school. Wouldn't people reading it find it suspicious that the letter is from a TA?

edost--

It depends. At some institutions, graduate students do the lion's share of the teaching.

[Mal83]

Just my 2 cents...I've found the posts about discouraging students to apply for grad school just because they either didn't make an impression in your particular class or because...gasp...they got unremarkable B's in 2 classes, rather disturbing. I completely understand if for whatever reason a professor/teacher is not comfortable doing a letter, I don't feel like they are obligated to do so, but to declare that that student is unqualified based on his/her performance in your class alone is pretty shortsighted. If you don't know that student very well then you have no idea how they're doing in other classes. You might think well that's a no brainer...that student shouldn't be coming to me for a letter, they should be going to a professor for whom they performed better. But it's not always that easy. They may have gone to them and they said no because it's too late and they don't have the time to do any more, which is something that happened to me. They may be out of undergrad for a while and now have limited options because they can't track down the professors who gave them A's.

I got a C in one of my major classes and it was pretty devestating, completely disliked the professor and I would have never gone to him for anything let alone an LOR for grad school, I could so see him not only declining to write it, but disuading me from applying even without knowing a damn thing about me other than the one grade I got in his class. But sure, as a C would indicate I didn't exactly perform in a stellar fashion in the class, I'm not unaware of that. While that was the only C I'd received, I was no almost 4.0 student. I ended up with a 3.35 in International Studies, which included that C, a B- or two, B's, B+'s, and a few A's in my major classes. Those are mostly "unremakarkable" grades according to a few of you, fortunately for me as I was out of undergrad for a while I was able to get ahold of the professors who gave me A's. But if I couldn't do that I hate to think that I would have gotten some "you're not qualified at all because you got a B in my class" lecture from the others. Don't sell those of us who weren't "stellar" in your class short, we're just as capable of succeeding in grad school too. If I was a 3.35 kind of student in undergrad and I don't do much better than that in grad school, I'll still get my Master's degree just the same as the 4.0 students.

You might not be obligated to write the letter, but for those students who express to you that you are one of their few or only options, then I believe that you are obligated to work with them to see if you can muster up something good to say. If they comply with your requests for writting samples, goal statements, and whatever else, that means they're committed and ready to make their impression on you. It's not easy for many students to approach a teacher for a letter, I personally absolutely hated doing it.

[ktel]

^ Seems like you have another perspective now that you've actually done some TAing!

[ktel]

You now know what it's like to be the TA and not just the student. Hence another perspective.

[Sigaba]

Have the students come back after a graded assignment??

Yes, and it was relatively easy.

As a T.A., I set up my office hours around the schedule of the students and added office hours as needed (as early as seven and as late as five in the afternoon). I made a point of knowing everyone's name within two days of the first section meeting. I kept lines of communication open throughout the semester. Most of all, I would be clear in establishing what I expected from students and what they could expect from me. So when I set up mandatory office hours, the compliance rate was very high. For those who straggled, they'd hear from me.

Not every student appreciated the opportunity to talk about how they did on an exam but they talked.

[mirandaw]

I've been a TA and nobody asked me for a LOR. In fact, I'd be surprised if they did. I think LORs should be from professors, not grad students, even if it isn't an application for grad school. Wouldn't people reading it find it suspicious that the letter is from a TA?

Actually, while I was applying to my grad program, my only academic reference was from a TA. One of my majors in UG was interdisciplinary and taught almost exclusively by adjunct professors or TAs. I ended up taking several different classes with one of them in addition to some activist work in the community. They were the most qualified candidate to discuss not only my academic progress but also my passion for my intended field. I was unsure whether it was acceptable to have a TA as my only academic reference, and I was told by my program that I should choose the strongest references who were best equipped to answer the standard questions, regardless of source.

What I read in most of the comments here is that everyone is making the assumption that the perception of the relationship between TA and student is the same from both sides. The fact is, while a student may seem unremarkable to you, you have no idea what they got from the class or what they were going through at the time. Maybe they were touched by you or your class in some way and so they are reaching out because they feel you understood some facet of their work or personality that is applicable to their request. I find it best practice to give the student the benefit of the doubt. If you're unsure, ask more questions, determine a set of criteria, and then simply accept or decline.

[butalas]

It seems that most think it totally unethical to dissuade a student from pursuing graduate studies. Does the inverse also apply then? That is, is it wrong to encourage outstanding undergraduates to consider their graduate options? My undergraduate professors made it very clear that they thought I would do very well in graduate school, and that to continue my education would be a fantastic opportunity for me. Of course, I had considered the option before, but thought myself in some way unqualified. After some encouragement from my professors I decided to apply--although I probably wouldn't have done so without them. Although I've yet to start (starting this fall!), I was accepted to multiple schools.

At the least, I can say that I'm very happy I was encouraged to apply. Conversely, I would think it a professor's duty to let a student know if they think the student is unqualified. Of course, it is impossible to tell this from just one class. But in such a case, the professor should inform the student that they may not be the best person to write a letter for them (to whatever use the letter may go).

[psychgurl]

Some things that I had to provide for my LOR writers (feel free to adapt for your students):

1. copy of unofficial transcript/cv/resume

2. a list of courses taken with this prof and the grades earned in each of those courses

3. if you worked in this prof's lab, the specific projects/tasks you worked on and which quarters you worked in the lab

4. list of each program you're applying to, including due date for the letter, any special formatting required, and a brief description of the program

5. any info you're hoping to be conveyed in the letter, because for some reason it isn't easy to communicate via other components of the application

6. if you worked during college, info about how many hours a week and what type of work

7. a copy of your personal statement (doesn't need to be the final version)

8. info about the specific mentors you're applying to work with (if applicable)

9. info about what you like about each program (specific line of research, emphasis of that program)

10. info about the degree you're seeking/what you hope to do with it.

I felt like this list was so thorough that my LOR writers had a lot to work with. Hope this helps.

[go3187]

Yes, and it was relatively easy.

As a T.A., I set up my office hours around the schedule of the students and added office hours as needed (as early as seven and as late as five in the afternoon). I made a point of knowing everyone's name within two days of the first section meeting. I kept lines of communication open throughout the semester. Most of all, I would be clear in establishing what I expected from students and what they could expect from me. So when I set up mandatory office hours, the compliance rate was very high. For those who straggled, they'd hear from me.

Not every student appreciated the opportunity to talk about how they did on an exam but they talked.

I doubt mandatory office hours would work at our university, and for all the (science) courses I took over the last 6 years, the office hours were optional.

In the undergrad course I'm TAing this semester, there are a few students who are doing very poorly. The homework is 40% of the final grade, and there's a final exam that's 60%. Some of the students (about 1/4 of the class) have such a low homework average that they'd need to do better in the exam than in the homework in order to pass -- that's rarely the case. I've been TAing this course for the last 5 years, and it's for the first time that the homework grades are so low. (The homework assignments are essentially the same as in previous years, and my grading hasn't changed.)

I have office hours twice a week, including on the weekends (undergrads live on campus, my office is on campus), and I'm available any time by email or phone. Out of 10 students, there's one who emails me whenever he needs help, one who came to office hours once, while the others never emailed/phoned me and never came to office hours. The professor reminded them a few times that they should see me if they are struggling with the course, but that didn't help.

So, I'd love to be able to implement mandatory office hours! However, not even classes are mandatory unless the attendance is graded, which is usually not the case in our science courses. For office hours to be mandatory, attending them would need to be graded. I'm certain my professor would never agree to that, and I don't think the university would either.

ETA: In the unlikely case that one of those 2 students who will likely fail the course asked me for a LOR, I would definitely not discourage them from applying to grad school, to an internship, etc. I would, however, tell them that I don't know them well enough to be able to write a strong LOR.

Edited April 21, 2012 by go3187

[ktel]

^ I don't think Sigaba was advocating for mandatory office hours for all courses. Obviously this works for small, discussion based sections, but large lectures are a different story.

[juilletmercredi]

You might not be obligated to write the letter, but for those students who express to you that you are one of their few or only options, then I believe that you are obligated to work with them to see if you can muster up something good to say.

No. No one is obligated to work with any one particular student to write a letter of recommendation. When you write one, you are saying, "I stake my reputation on the fact that I think this student is well-prepared for the award for which he is applying." Are you willing to stake your reputation on a student that you don't know very well, or a student who is doing poorly in your class, simply because he doesn't have many options?

It's the students' responsibility to cultivate multiple options for letters of recommendation.

I also don't think it is unethical to gently and kindly discourage some students from graduate study. It wouldn't be on the basis of one class grade, though. For example, if a student explicitly told you that they hated writing papers and disliked research, but wanted to get a PhD in English because they liked reading books, wouldn't you want to enlighten them? What about if a student expresses an interest in getting a doctoral degree because they don't know what else to do or because they simply want the prestige of being called "doctor," even though they don't plan to do anything with the doctoral degree?

I've dealt with both of the latter two situations as a mentor, and I kindly told these students (who were outstanding in other ways) that perhaps they wanted to explore other things and come back to graduate study later, when they were more ready. Personally, I think it is far kinder of me as an advanced mentor to let them know ahead of time they may not be ready for grad study than for me to say "Yes, sure, so you don't like writing and you hate research papers - but don't worry, go ahead and get that PhD!"

Edited April 27, 2012 by juilletmercredi

[Sigaba]

Personally, I think it is far kinder of me as an advanced mentor to let them know ahead of time they may not be ready for grad study than for me to say "Yes, sure, so you don't like writing and you hate research papers - but don't worry, go ahead and get that PhD!"

What about a third option: Shelving the snark and doing what one can to help get students ready for graduate school. Does a student hating to write and to do research mean that she automatically won't seize an opportunity to improve her skills at either? Or is a less than ideal mindset just as good a reason as any to stop teaching?

Regardless of the motivation, a student is still going to have to create new knowledge to earn a doctorate. What harm is a student doing to you or a particular field if she creates that knowledge only for the social prestige of a doctorate? Why is the standard of creating new knowledge good enough for a field but not for you?

[Safferz]

What about a third option: Shelving the snark and doing what one can to help get students ready for graduate school. Does a student hating to write and to do research mean that she automatically won't seize an opportunity to improve her skills at either? Or is a less than ideal mindset just as good a reason as any to stop teaching?

I also don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with finding research and writing to be a labourious and often unpleasant task.

[anti]

You might not be obligated to write the letter, but for those students who express to you that you are one of their few or only options, then I believe that you are obligated to work with them to see if you can muster up something good to say.

No. No one is obligated to work with any one particular student to write a letter of recommendation. When you write one, you are saying, "I stake my reputation on the fact that I think this student is well-prepared for the award for which he is applying." Are you willing to stake your reputation on a student that you don't know very well, or a student who is doing poorly in your class, simply because he doesn't have many options?

It's the students' responsibility to cultivate multiple options for letters of recommendation.

I also don't think it is unethical to gently and kindly discourage some students from graduate study. It wouldn't be on the basis of one class grade, though. For example, if a student explicitly told you that they hated writing papers and disliked research, but wanted to get a PhD in English because they liked reading books, wouldn't you want to enlighten them? What about if a student expresses an interest in getting a doctoral degree because they don't know what else to do or because they simply want the prestige of being called "doctor," even though they don't plan to do anything with the doctoral degree?

I've dealt with both of the latter two situations as a mentor, and I kindly told these students (who were outstanding in other ways) that perhaps they wanted to explore other things and come back to graduate study later, when they were more ready. Personally, I think it is far kinder of me as an advanced mentor to let them know ahead of time they may not be ready for grad study than for me to say "Yes, sure, so you don't like writing and you hate research papers - but don't worry, go ahead and get that PhD!"

I very much agree with this post, and something I haven't seen on this particular forum, is the perspective from someone who may have been in a situation similar to the student. I have, unfortunately!! I had an undergraduate professor turn me down for a letter of recommendation, and he quite plainly said "After reviewing your grades from my class, I remember that I gave you a B. You might want to seek a LOR from someone else who gave you an A". I appreciated his honesty and opinion, and followed his advice. The only reason I asked him is because he was one of the last professors I had class with during undergrad and I felt the class was actually challenging and helpful. But if HE felt that writing me a LOR was not a good decision, he was totally justified in feeling that way.

I think a good thing for us all to remember is that anyone who decides to embark on the task of completing a PhD, needs to (and most likely will be) motivated and driven from within. They will not require anyone with discouraging advice to keep them from pursuing the goal of graduate school, if that is truly what they want to do. I agree with juillermercredi that is not unethical to discourage someone, everyone needs to hear the truth about the bleakness of an academic career and life. However, if you really have the passion and are committed running (not walking) this doctoral road, it won't matter if the feedback you receive is positive or negative, it will probably do little to sway you from attempting to accomplish that goal.

[natsteel]

I think a good thing for us all to remember is that anyone who decides to embark on the task of completing a PhD, needs to (and most likely will be) motivated and driven from within. They will not require anyone with discouraging advice to keep them from pursuing the goal of graduate school, if that is truly what they want to do. I agree with juillermercredi that is not unethical to discourage someone, everyone needs to hear the truth about the bleakness of an academic career and life. However, if you really have the passion and are committed running (not walking) this doctoral road, it won't matter if the feedback you receive is positive or negative, it will probably do little to sway you from attempting to accomplish that goal.

Well put. And, yes, Sigaba, my view, I would say, is the standard among faculty I've known well at both institutions I've been at (a regional public college and a large R1). All three of my UG mentors discussed the job prospects after getting a PhD in History. And, though, I knew about it already, I am glad they did. That said, they encouraged me to apply. I would not (and did not say I would) tell a student not to apply. I did say, however, that I would certainly do my best to make sure they have as much information as possible before they make a decision. And that includes information about the job market because that is the information that most UG's don't seem to have. Not all UGs read CHE or the statistical reports from their field's national association. And, despite giving them that information, I suspect that most would still apply anyway, and I would have no problem with that whatsoever.

You are worried, quite rightly, about what if a late-bloomer never gets the chance to bloom. I, however, am worried about a student ending up with a PhD, $60,000 in debt, and a job adjuncting for $2000/course with no health insurance and no guarantee of employment next semester, which is way more common than unremarkable undergrads who turn into TT faculty.

I appreciate your idealism. I really do. I wish the corporatization of academia wasn't making it so hard for people to make livable careers as history faculty. But that is not the reality and I don't appreciate being characterized as a dream squasher simply because I said I would inform students as to the prospects of the career they are choosing. I would expect faculty in any field would do the same whether its History, Computer Science, or Accounting.

[Sigaba]

I appreciate your idealism.

My sensibility does not reflect "idealism" but rather the training I've received from a professional educator and a professional academic historian. To me, taking away from a person the opportunity to fail is also taking away an opportunity to succeed. It is clear that you have received formal training in a different set of sensibilities.

FWIW, I have not characterized you as "a dream squasher." My personal opinion of your POV as expressed in this thread remains undisclosed and, ultimately, irrelevant. I have simply invited you (in post #20) to disclose fully your frame of mind to the professors you know and to see what they think. That is, print out your posts in this thread, let them read what you've written, and have a friendly conversation. (What you said earlier in this thread compared to what you wrote in post #51 indicates that there may be an opportunity for discussion.)

Finally, I will respectfully disagree with your argument that the state of professional academic history is a byproduct of "the corporatization of academia." Based upon my experiences and my research, the issue is the professionalism of academic historians. YMMV.