Discerning what type of degree to pursue and what universities I should research.

[B-612]

I'm recently graduated from Vanderbilt University with a Master of Divinity and am considering next steps. I'd love to find a PhD program in religion and literature. However, I'm unsure whether I should pursue a PhD requiring a more academic dissertation or one with a creative dissertation. Several professors have encouraged me to enroll in a program for creative writing but I know a degree isn't required in order to publish, so if it is more vocationally sound to pursue the academic degree perhaps I should. My end goal is not to become a full-time tenured English professor. I am recently confirmed in the Episcopal Church and intend to use the next few years immersing myself in the life of the Episcopal Church before entering the ordination process. I would love to teach English adjunct, but my main desires are to a) write fiction from within the Church teach my parishioners about religious literature and help them plumb the theological and philosophical depths of literature c) enhance my own and others' practices of lectio and scriptio divina.

My interest areas include:

* British literature

* French literature

* Russian literature

* Existentialism (especially Christian existentialism)

* Magical realism

* Anglican authors (especially C.S. Lewis and T.S. Eliot)

* Children's literature

* LGBT literature

Here are some questions I have for your consideration:

- Would a PhD requiring an academic or creative dissertation be preferable for an aspiring priest/fiction writer?

- Should I consider an MFA over and against a PhD?

- Are there any universities someone with my background, goals and interests should consider? (I would love a program that is well thought of but also am interested in one with good funding)

I am most grateful for any advice you may offer. Thank you.

[Stately Plump]

I really can't help with this. You'll have to do more research on your own to figure out which schools might accommodate your interests. I don't think there are too many people on here looking to be ordained into religious life, so you probably won't get too many responses.

I would recommend thinking more specifically about what you want from your future education. In creative writing programs, you will mostly be focusing on your own creative writing. I don't know of any creative writing programs that will help you to write "fiction from within the church." In PhD programs, you will be focusing on theory and the application of theory.

To be one hundred percent honest with you, I don't think you need either one of these things to help your parishioners. That probably sounds insulting via the internet, but I sincerely don't mean it to be so; all I mean to say is that having a degree--be it an MFA or a PhD--has a very specific purpose within academia, and has very little purpose outside academia. If you want to pursue the degree for personal reasons, by all means, go for it. I don't mean to persuade you otherwise

One other word of caution: you should know going in that you will be in a very significant minority, as someone who is preparing for religious life. From my experience, academia can be (is not always, though) overtly atheist and agnostic, and you may have more trouble finding common bonds with your classmates. This is not always the case, and I don't mean to make unfair generalizations; I'm only speaking from my own experience. Again, this is not to persuade you otherwise. It's just the only advice I can give.

I would research schools and programs. If you don't know where to start, start geographically. Where might you want to be? Look up the programs in that area. From there, you should be lead to find other programs, perhaps not in that area. If you can, read the fiction from those teaching at MFA programs and read the theory from those teaching at PhD programs.

Sorry I couldn't be more help . And I hope I didn't offend you at all. I know that over the internet things can get lost, but I'm being sincere when I say that I didn't mean any harm by anything I said. I was only trying to help the best I knew how

[B-612]

I am grateful for your response. I didn't take anything you said as an insult, which may be in part due to your courteous statements about how you did not intend for it to be received as such. I am a horrible offender when it comes to sending text messages that come across as sour so I am well aware how distorting technology can be!

I have several friends in doctoral programs for English and they have often told me their programs tend to be populated by atheists and agnostics. I thrive on diversity and would be perfectly comfortable amongst them, unless I were to suffer direct attacks for being a person of faith (I find that the rhetoric from some atheists often sounds so similar to infuriating rhetoric from fundamentalists).

I may check into some divinity schools. It may be the case that religious literature programs for those entering into ordained ministry/theological academia are offered by seminaries, divinity schools and graduate departments of religion rather than English departments. However, I thought my MDiv might be a boon when applying to English programs because I doubt many other applicants would have one (and I know some schools appreciate interdisciplinary interests!).

I'll keep up the research and maybe seek additional advice from former English and religion professors. Thanks so much for your help!

[DorindaAfterThyrsis]

Anecdata: I gather that the Div Schools at both Duke and Chicago allow (and possibly encourage) student crossover with relevant grad courses in Lit or English, and faculty cross-postings aren't unheard of, either. I imagine this is the case at most major Universities where Div schools exist.

I agree with Stately, though, that getting an English or Lit PhD is an awfully enormous commitment of time, effort, and money with little practical payoff if you don't intend to stay within academia. Especially since you have plans to pursue ordination in the near future, are you sure you want to be delaying that for another 6+ years? If you're REALLY committed to the idea of studying literature at the graduate level, and are averse to doing self-directed study (which is an entirely valid, and much less costly route to take), perhaps an English MA might be more suitable? I, personally, would have a hard time justifying the many costs (both real and "missed opportunity") of spending 6 more years in school if I wasn't sure that the outcome was going to be directly applicable to my professional path. I could, however, justify doing a 1 (or maybe 2, but that's pushing it)year MA (if it was funded) on the grounds of pure knowledge-seeking and/or personal enlightenment (which seems to be your situation) if I needed a year or so to feed my curiosity before diving headlong into a profession. Keep in mind, though, that you (honestly, truly) don't need an official piece of paper with some fancy letters on it in order to authorize you to discuss, interpret, and "guide others" through literature, especially in a non-University (i.e. Parish) setting. All you need for that is a brain, and you clearly have a decent one of those. (Not trying to belittle or demean your ambitions, just trying to empower you to resist the idea of a PhD as conferring upon you the Ultimate Authority About Books and Stuff)

Just my $0.02.

Like Stately said, do your research. Maybe a program in Religion and Literature exists somewhere that I'm not aware of (entirely possible).

Good luck.

[rmexiq]

The MFA in fiction is a studio degree for people who write literary fiction. There's nothing to stop you from enrolling in an MFA and writing stories dealing with religion; there will be people writing about all sorts of things, and I suspect the workshop environment will be more accepting than academic programs of religion.

Keep in mind, though, that the main focus of the fiction MFA is the mechanics of the short story (e.g. point of view, dialog, character development). Stories will be analyzed as works of craft rather than assessed on their instructive (or other) merits.

You could also look into the low-residency MFA, which is an MFA done by correspondence. You are paired with an advisor, who critiques your work and oversees your thesis. If you can find a writer at such a program interested in instructive or religious fiction, I suspect the low-residency MFA might be a better path for you.

There's a lot of info on both full- and low-residency MFAs online. I'd start with the blog I'll link to below, which ranks programs based on funding.

Good luck!

http://creative-writ...k.blogspot.com/

Edited March 15, 2012 by rmexiq

[veniente]

You might like to check out The Iowa Writers' Workshop (at The University of Iowa). It looks as though they offer an MFA and a PhD with Creative Dissertation. I would certainly welcome the opportunity to write alongside Marilynne Robinson who I am sure would be amenable insofar as your religious interests are concerned.

[cquin]

This program may be of interest to you:

http://www.spu.edu/prospects/grad/academics/mfa/index.asp

"The low-residency MFA at SPU is a creative writing program for apprentice writers—both Christians and those of other traditions—who not only want to pursue excellence in the craft of writing but also place their work within the larger context of the Judeo-Christian tradition of faith."

[LivePoetry123]

This also might be of interest to you. Baylor University has an interdisciplinary program in literature and religion-- it looks like they do both PhDs and MAs. I think it is a Christian school but I don't really know anything about it.

http://www.baylor.edu/english/index.php?id=45821

[anxious_aspirant]

Anecdotally - I don't know anything about this, really - I was just researching an article about a novel published in a journal called Religion & LIterature. The journal itself is published by Notre Dame - they might have some related program worth looking into.

[Sparky]

Anecdotally - I don't know anything about this, really - I was just researching an article about a novel published in a journal called Religion & LIterature. The journal itself is published by Notre Dame - they might have some related program worth looking into.

No, just a monthly discussion group and a journal (and a ton of people working on religious topics in non-theology departments). Harvard and Chicago Div both have PhD concentrations in Religion & Literature, but then you'd be up against PhD admissions at Harvard and Chicago. You might check out whether that's also an option at the M* level at one of those schools, though.

Like previous posters, I'm wondering why you are even thinking about a PhD? If what you want to do is ministry, and you have that qualification...? I know quite a few pastors who have gone *back* to school after a good chunk of time working, in order to improve their biblical or theological training...If it's just a matter of confidence, or you're just not feeling ready for the "real world," what about something like a ThM (one year brush-up degree)?

I mean, if you want to be the next G.K. Chesterton, all the more power to you, but I'm not sure why you see academia as the best path to that.

[B-612]

Well, I wouldn't mind a foot in the Church and a foot in the academy. I guess I'm thinking this way for a couple of reasons:

1) I have heard from countless professors that the job market for individuals with degrees in English is horribly small and as a result have been focusing on additional areas I am passionate about.

2) I have become deeply aware of a problem with circularity in the academy. English professors help create more English professors. The same problem often rises with regard to theology, but because there is a connection to the Church there is a better opportunity for theory to engender praxis.

I think in my heart of hearts I was hoping that admissions committees would view my desire to see my learnings bear real, tangible fruits in the world outside of the ivory tower (especially the Church in my case) as a good thing. I wasn't expecting to learn that English faculty/admissions committees want everyone to stay primarily within the academy with the job market the way it is, just creating more English scholars to fight for ever-decreasing space within English departments.

I would have a real interest in teaching literature classes at a seminary or divinity school, though--and I would definitely like to publish. But I'm someone who needs to get his hands dirty. I have a heart for social justice and fighting for the wellness of the underprivileged. I think reading and writing are wellsprings of empowerment for marginal communities, but you don't tend to find them within the academy.

I don't know who we're helping if English scholars remain a somewhat detached and exclusive community.

I hope that made sense. It's 2am here and I've lost my senses at this point.

[Timshel]

Okay, this isn't going to be very helpful, but reading your post reminded me of something. Last summer my husband and I were at the Flannery O'Connor house in Savannah, and we met a couple who were also touring the house. The husband was a "new left Baptist" minister/preacher (whatever Baptists call them) as he called it, and he actually had a PhD in Literature. I can't remember specifically, but he did some sort of double emphasis thing with religion and literature, and he was telling me how he did his dissertation on O'Connor's work as religious parables, or something like that. It was very fascinating. For the life of me, I can't remember what school he said he went to, but for some reason I feel like he said it was somewhere in California. Either way, it can be done. He said he uses O'Connor and other literature to reach out to his parishioners, and he said he was very successful. He has his own church in Decatur, Georgia. So yeah, I don't know what you could do with that, but I thought I would share that anecdote.

Edited March 18, 2012 by Timshel

[TripWillis]

This thread makes me think of The Damnation of Theron Ware.

[Sparky]

Well, I wouldn't mind a foot in the Church and a foot in the academy. I guess I'm thinking this way for a couple of reasons:

...

I think in my heart of hearts I was hoping that admissions committees would view my desire to see my learnings bear real, tangible fruits in the world outside of the ivory tower (especially the Church in my case) as a good thing. I wasn't expecting to learn that English faculty/admissions committees want everyone to stay primarily within the academy with the job market the way it is, just creating more English scholars to fight for ever-decreasing space within English departments.

You make lots of sense, and yes yes YES, and "everybody knows it." The problem (and kudos to people on the history board for explaining this so clearly) is that humanities PhD programs earn their funding based essentially on two things: ability of students to bring in outside grant money for specialized research, and ability of students to land tenure-track professorships at 4-year schools.

I *suspect* that you might find a pretty warm reception for your long-term plan at a less well known, nowhere-close-to-top-ranked English dept. I'm not sure what that would do iin terms of job prospects, even as an adjunct. You'd also have to take into account exactly what types of courses adjunct profs, especially those from less "prestigious" schools, usually teach. (Of course, this is unfortunately not as limited as it used to be, but still).

The other option, of course, is to go into ministry, write your novels, become a superstar author, and work as a "star" adjunct teaching a class on Fiction and the Word or whatnot. But my understanding of such positions is that you do not generally need a full-blown PhD.

Having switched from religion to history, in fact, it seems to me that religion/theology is currently the field *most* suited to a blended approach. There is lots of big talk from the MLA and AHA about preparing grad students for jobs outside academia and how to broaden training and appeal to the public and all that jazz. I don't doubt that tenured professors leading major graduate programs are sincere in their desire to change what a PhD means, to adapt it to the current and future economic reality. But given the constraints of why grad programs are allowed to continue to exist, I will believe the changes will happen when I see them.

Edited March 18, 2012 by Sparky

[Stately Plump]

I think in my heart of hearts I was hoping that admissions committees would view my desire to see my learnings bear real, tangible fruits in the world outside of the ivory tower (especially the Church in my case) as a good thing. I wasn't expecting to learn that English faculty/admissions committees want everyone to stay primarily within the academy with the job market the way it is, just creating more English scholars to fight for ever-decreasing space within English departments.

You make lots of sense, and yes yes YES, and "everybody knows it." The problem (and kudos to people on the history board for explaining this so clearly) is that humanities PhD programs earn their funding based essentially on two things: ability of students to bring in outside grant money for specialized research, and ability of students to land tenure-track professorships at 4-year schools.

I agree with Sparky. You may actually be met with some resistance at top top schools, because they want to place students in tenure-track jobs. The goal, for many of the top departments, is to get students tenured university jobs, which boosts the status of their program, which increases the money they get from the university, etc. etc.

Most students applying to PhD programs are doing so with the (overly idealistic and potentially unreasonable/irrational) thought that they will land university jobs. Many are hoping for R1 placements, but nearly all are hoping for tenured positions. This is my goal; I would ultimately like to land a job in a university. If it is an R1 school, great, if it is a small college, great, but ideally, I'd like to have a tenured position. (Like I said, probably idealistic and unreasonable, but hey.)

When I look at prospective schools, one of the main things I am looking at (especially at this point, where I am trying to make decisions about where to go, having some acceptances) is job placement. I'm not at all interested in non-academic placements, because that is not my goal (and I think most people are thinking similarly). I certainly see the value in what you (besixdouze) are hoping to do, but if a school said to me, "Yes, we've also had success placing people within the church," I would not exactly be impressed. No offense; again, I hope this doesn't come off sounding critical or harsh, it's just not my plan.

Like I said, most departments are probably trying to place people in tenured positions. You may have some luck, like Sparky said, at smaller, less prestigious schools, but the top top schools are most like looking to create future scholars. Of course, I could be completely wrong about all of this

I hope this helps, and I hope you gain a clearer sense of where you might end up!

[pulpiteer]

This also might be of interest to you. Baylor University has an interdisciplinary program in literature and religion-- it looks like they do both PhDs and MAs. I think it is a Christian school but I don't really know anything about it.

http://www.baylor.ed...ex.php?id=45821

Well I do! I'm a first year PhD student at Baylor, and yes, we have a Religion and Literature concentration. It's somewhat informal in structure, splitting hours between lit courses and religion courses. I would guess about half of the students coming to Baylor for graduate English come for that program, although not all stay with it. One of my classmates has an MDiv and an ThM, I believe, and many others (myself included) have some theological education in our background. Though Baylor is Baptist, the English department seems to run more "high church," if you will. And as far as faculty who would be attuned to your interests, well, we've got Dr. Greg Garrett: http://www.baylor.edu/english/index.php?id=50147