MacBook Pro vs. Thinkpad

[RefurbedScientist]

Without getting too much into specs (unless you really want to go there), I'm weighing a MacBook Pro versus a Lenovo Think Pad for my grad school computer.

The essential question is this: Are most statistical software native to Windows, and does that make it a hassle to run them on Mac OS?

Does the hassle of running Windows in Parallels on my MacBook outweigh my slight preference for Mac OS over Windows?

[kaijura]

The OS should not be the determining point these days, as you can now dual or triple boot, or clone a VM (virtual machine) an instance of Win/Linux/OSX with compatible hardware. Running a VM instance is not a hassle, but it really depends on how you feel about it. Personally, I don't really mind that I need to take 3-5 minutes to reboot from Windows into Fedora.

On the contrary, some IBM based counterparts might not have the compatible hardware with running 'hackintosh' builds (official term for OSX on IBM architecture)

It's probably safe to say, most software are native with windows due to their long standing monopoly. The only real benefits I see with an OSX machine is that the battery life is substantial with notebooks, but this is not always a considering factor with everyone.

In the end it's really up to you. Pay a premium for a Macbook, or pay a realistic price gauge of the hardware with the ThinkPad - economically, both probably affect the negative labor practices in some way or another, however Apple makes more $ over it.

[ANDS!]

Without getting too much into specs (unless you really want to go there), I'm weighing a MacBook Pro versus a Lenovo Think Pad for my grad school computer.

The essential question is this: Are most statistical software native to Windows, and does that make it a hassle to run them on Mac OS?

Does the hassle of running Windows in Parallels on my MacBook outweigh my slight preference for Mac OS over Windows?

You shouldn't have a problem running SAS or R on a Mac (though I swear a friend had the toughest time finding packages for R on her Macbook Pro). As has been mentioned, at this point - this stuff is all universal, and putting windows on a Mac has enough converts that should you want a Mac there is support for it. I wouldn't go that route (and would just get a PC).

That said, I would take a Thinkpad any day of the week. Folks thought Lenovo taking over for IBM would be the death of the brand - that has been proven false many times over. I was late to the IBM thinkpad game, so most of my Thinkpads are Lenovo - and they are all still going strong. As soon as I begin in the fall, I'll be grabbing a new Thinkpad (or perhaps there sleeker Ideapad U series) and wont be looking back. Perhaps if I were younger, I'd be interested in the premium that the Apple brand carries.

[Dal PhDer]

FYI- I don't think SPSS is compatible with Mac yet...In my field that's the most used program.

I bought a Mac for my MA and then went back to a PC for my PhD. I honestly didn't feel the Mac gave me what I needed.

I might check out what most of your department uses. I know we use mostly PCs, so it's really easy for me to get software for my computer via my lab. Some of my other friends in different departments have labs that use only Macs (especially for medical imagine), and therefore they needed a Mac. So you might want to see what your department/supervisor uses

[ThisSlumgullionIsSoVapid]

Without getting too much into specs (unless you really want to go there), I'm weighing a MacBook Pro versus a Lenovo Think Pad for my grad school computer.

The essential question is this: Are most statistical software native to Windows, and does that make it a hassle to run them on Mac OS?

Does the hassle of running Windows in Parallels on my MacBook outweigh my slight preference for Mac OS over Windows?

Fancy seeing you here. I actually came here to search for this same information haha. Glad you beat me to it.

I'm probably going to wait til the new MBP's come out in June/July. I'm leaning towards picking up one of those but I've been asking the same questions that you raised in this thread. I'll probably just use VM to run windows at the same time; a buddy of mine does this on his laptop and he says it's no big deal.

[Gneiss1]

FYI- I don't think SPSS is compatible with Mac yet...In my field that's the most used program.

I bought a Mac for my MA and then went back to a PC for my PhD. I honestly didn't feel the Mac gave me what I needed.

I might check out what most of your department uses. I know we use mostly PCs, so it's really easy for me to get software for my computer via my lab. Some of my other friends in different departments have labs that use only Macs (especially for medical imagine), and therefore they needed a Mac. So you might want to see what your department/supervisor uses

SPSS will work on a mac they just have a little tutorial on how to install it. It isn't too bad if you follow the steps and it will work fine. I un mine on my Mac partition but I'm sure running it on my windows partition would be just as easy.

For me I havent had any troubles really using my Mac. The programs limited to windows I just use bootcamp and use those on my windows partition without much issue. I'm thankful for my mac and I think I will be sold for life on them. My fiance has a thinkpad and he likes it. It was definitely cheaper. He has experienced more problems with upkeep than I have but that is to be expected. I think it comes down to personal preference.

[R Deckard]

Fancy seeing you here. I actually came here to search for this same information haha. Glad you beat me to it.

I'm probably going to wait til the new MBP's come out in June/July. I'm leaning towards picking up one of those but I've been asking the same questions that you raised in this thread. I'll probably just use VM to run windows at the same time; a buddy of mine does this on his laptop and he says it's no big deal.

All new ThinkPads coming out next month as well. I'll be waiting for the ThinkPad X1 Carbon, which apparently will be released a bit later this summer.

[ANDS!]

All new ThinkPads coming out next month as well. I'll be waiting for the ThinkPad X1 Carbon, which apparently will be released a bit later this summer.

Holy hell. I love being surprised by new products. I hated the look and feel of the first X1, but god damn does the Carbon look sweet. I might just have to grab that in a couple of months. I was thinking I would go with one of the X300/X200 series, but that X1 looks perfect and (if the pricing rumors are to be believed) competively priced.

[ThisSlumgullionIsSoVapid]

All new ThinkPads coming out next month as well. I'll be waiting for the ThinkPad X1 Carbon, which apparently will be released a bit later this summer.

I just checked that out. The carbon is quite impressive too.

[euthuphron]

I had to make this decision too about two years ago, but I ended getting a Thinkpad T410 over a MBP. I don't regret it. The main reason I considered the latter was mainly due to aesthetics. The Thinkpad was the more practical choice: it cost less (especially with the EPP website), had better specs (like eSATA for external HD, faster CPU), a better keyboard (it seems like an insignificant factor, but the keyboard is just wonderful for typing) and is built such that a klutz like myself doesn't destroy it by accidentally spilling something on it (there's a drainage hole under) or knocking it off my desk (magnesium chassis, zinc-alloy hinges, etc.). Another thing is that the Thinkpad is far more accessible for the tech savvy. Removing the keyboard to clean the fan and insides takes just two screws. Manuals and videos are available online. Macs are more difficult to access.

The MBP at the time had better graphics options, probably better for multimedia, oh, and a better version of Scrivener, which is a really good program. As others said you can install Windows on Macs, but not t'other way 'round on laptops generally (which isn't strictly true, but a hackintosh on the T410 isn't worth it IMO). In the future I may buy a MBP, but mainly to use it at Starbucks to show everyone there that I'm working on something important.

[Sigaba]

FWIW, my decision would center around (i) the availability of timely support in a SHTF scenario, and (ii) what my department and POIs are using. In regards to the latter, although OS interoperability is increasingly seamless, I would want to be in a situation where I'd lowered the odds of something going wrong to as close as zero as possible. The last place I'd want to be is handing something off to someone without a lot of technical expertise (such as a departmental secretary) and making that person wait while the kinks were ironed out. What might take an experienced user ten seconds to fix (like font substitution and pagination) might take a less experienced user a lot longer. IME, one wants to be on the good side of the admin types and a good way to stay on that good side is to waste not their time.

In regards to the issue of support, IMO, Murphy's Law is especially prone to manifest itself at the worst possible moment. If disaster were to strike, I'd want to be in a situation where I could get either next day on-site support or take the machine to a certified shop and get prioritized service.

FWIW, part two. Each of the last three times I sat down to pick a new laptop, I've gone with a PC so that I could apply the premium I'd have paid for a Mac to buying peripherals (e,g,. extra power supply, external drive for back up, cable lock, fancy dan keyboard and fancy dan mouse, new computer bag, and an extended warranty). For my last purchase (early 2008), I scored an incredible deal on a ThinkPad R61 at Lenovo's on-line store. (IIRC, my savings was in the area of 40%.) My greatest regrets are that I didn't spend a bit more to max out the RAM and that I failed do a better job at researching the care and feeding of the battery.

If you do want to do additional research on Lenovo laptops, each month that company publishes the specs of machines that are currently available as well as those that will come to market in the near future. That document is available here.

Just my $0.02. HTH.

[ThisSlumgullionIsSoVapid]

FWIW, my decision would center around (i) the availability of timely support in a SHTF scenario, and (ii) what my department and POIs are using. In regards to the latter, although OS interoperability is increasingly seamless, I would want to be in a situation where I'd lowered the odds of something going wrong to as close as zero as possible. The last place I'd want to be is handing something off to someone without a lot of technical expertise (such as a departmental secretary) and making that person wait while the kinks were ironed out. What might take an experienced user ten seconds to fix (like font substitution and pagination) might take a less experienced user a lot longer. IME, one wants to be on the good side of the admin types and a good way to stay on that good side is to waste not their time.

In regards to the issue of support, IMO, Murphy's Law is especially prone to manifest itself at the worst possible moment. If disaster were to strike, I'd want to be in a situation where I could get either next day on-site support or take the machine to a certified shop and get prioritized service.

FWIW, part two. Each of the last three times I sat down to pick a new laptop, I've gone with a PC so that I could apply the premium I'd have paid for a Mac to buying peripherals (e,g,. extra power supply, external drive for back up, cable lock, fancy dan keyboard and fancy dan mouse, new computer bag, and an extended warranty). For my last purchase (early 2008), I scored an incredible deal on a ThinkPad R61 at Lenovo's on-line store. (IIRC, my savings was in the area of 40%.) My greatest regrets are that I didn't spend a bit more to max out the RAM and that I failed do a better job at researching the care and feeding of the battery.

If you do want to do additional research on Lenovo laptops, each month that company publishes the specs of machines that are currently available as well as those that will come to market in the near future. That document is available here.

Just my $0.02. HTH.

Funny, I thought the second half was going to be a "and those are the reasons why I got a MBP." The lead up of on-site support and murphys law talk lead me on that you went down that road.

[Sigaba]

Funny, I thought the second half was going to be a "and those are the reasons why I got a MBP." The lead up of on-site support and murphys law talk lead me on that you went down that road.

Lenovo's ThinkPads are designed for enterprise use and, therefore, tend to be rock solid--my machine has emerged unscratched from a few falls--and its users can rely on robust support starting with the touch of a blue button.

OMG, knock on wood! / Knock on wood.

[Usmivka]

Wow, I've had exactly the opposite experience with my 1 year old ideapad (supposedly the upmarket thinkpad, basically the same thing with a bigger screen and a graphics card that can be switched on and off). The following problems started withing 1 month of getting it.

There is no way to set fan speed without changing the BIOS, but it is set too slow so my machine overheats and dies unless I have it on a raised grill or vented platform (can't even be on a flat desk, and forget your lap, it has copper heat exchangers that will give you burns). I've had numerous hardware bugs, mostly caused by the bloatware they add onto the machine, and it is super difficult to disable all of it since the drivers like to reenable themselves randomly and slow things down. I also get frequent bluescreen "fatal errors" and freezing, and the startup is insanely long. I do nothing more complicated than running Matlab scripts on it (no fancy modeling, just plug and chug matrix algebra), but this can kill the machine too.

The wireless card is severely underpowered and drops connections every 5-10 minutes if you aren't within a few feet of the router, so you might as well plug in. But forget using it at conferences or on other trips. The battery life is a joke and the power time estimater is seriously flawed/optimistic (it will tell me I have 2.5-3 hours, and then 40 minutes later tell me I have 30 min remaining, then 5 min later shut itself off because it is out of juice--all with screen completely dimmed, wireless off, no programs running but notepad or excel). And the charger block is so rediculously huge it can't fit in most laptop bags--literally 2-3 times the size of chargers that come with any other laptop.

I got the extended warranty, but they want me to send it away for a couple weeks for any work, which I've yet to find a time for since I actually use my computer!

Maybe this is just the lemon in the family, but based on this experience I will never buy Lenovo again. In contrast, I previously had a 2004 Apple iBook that ran flawlessly until 2011 (with multiple 4 foot drops onto concrete floors)--and it was still faster than my new thinkpad even with way outdated hardware because Apple actually takes time to streamline their programming. The only reason I stopped using it was because the solder on the chip pins was getting old and cracking, and I didn't want to reopen it every couple months to find and resolder whichever pins were coming loose. I know they don't make them like that anymore, of course, so maybe new macs aren't as good a buy (it looks like they are selling 3 year old hardware at 500% markup, boo), but you should really consider something besides a Lenovo. At least Dell's are predictable in dying the week after the warrenty is up.

Edited May 24, 2012 by Usmivka

[OregonGal]

Oh Dell... that happened to me twice before I wised up and bought a MacBook so that I wouldn't have the power supply connector fail issue again.

[queller]

I've be considering this decision too, so thanks for the information everyone has provided.

In my research into the Lenovo laptops the Ideapad and the Thinkpad lines are completely different animals. I've heard good things about the Thinkpads rather consistently, but I've heard mixed things about the Ideapads. Note: Observation has a rather small sample.

So I'd definitely get a Thinkpad over a Ideapad. As for over the mac, I'm still in the trying to decide department and thankful I can put off my purchase until windows 8 comes out. (Even if I plan on putting Linux on it rather quickly)

[RefurbedScientist]

Wow. Very impressive and useful assortment of advice. Thanks so much to all.

If I do go with the Thinkpad, I've been advised to invest in a sold state hard drive, which will apparently speed things up and outlive the rest of the hardware.

Tangentially, the real attraction of the MBP is the ability to run Final Cut, as film is a hobby of mine (though probably a hobby I will soon drop once grad school work permeates every corner of my life).

I'll process this and get back at ya. I'm also going to get in touch with some students in my department to see what the norm is.

Thanks!

[kaijura]

The "how-does-my-purchase-affect-me" philosophy is a little something I've been instilling into everyone's minds that has came to me with this question, as I was former IT. In the end I try to give them the options so they can make the choices themselves.

Weighted impact(s) of buying Apple:

- Supports Apple slogan

- follow popular/trending culture

- efficient unrivaled battery technology

- aesthetically pleasing & notebook ergonomics

- Good support; this is actually in fact due to a controlled selection of peripherals

- company profits greatly from underpaid/underage/illegal labor (those premiums at work as a collateral damage)

- other?

Weighted impact(s) of buying non-apple:

- Supports a nobody (let's face it, really, no other PC company has a rivaled amount of influence that embossed apple logo has)

- Get ridiculed socially for not choosing mac, being 'uncool'

- More control room for DIY enthusiasts: Can swap/change some parts efficiently, upgrade to an extent, etc.

- Less -than-stellar support; But in reality it's not exactly the fault of the company, it's due to the vast hardware/driver differences, the same challenges Linux faces. (DIY's are generally not affected by this)

- company profits marginally from underpaid/underage/illegal labor

- other?

[OregonGal]

As someone who has (with help) built a desktop, I can say this-- I don't think that I'd ever buy a Mac desktop, but I don't know that I'll ever again buy a PC laptop. All the things I value about PCs--the ability to self-upgrade/modify/individualize, the fact that some video games only come on the Windows platform--are things I value in a desktop. The things I value in a Mac--the performance, the battery life, the power cord that stands up well to being tugged (doesn't end up disconnecting from the power supply/motherboard *grumble grumble*), the durable exterior, tech support, sleek aesthetic--are all things I want in a notebook/ultrabook. I will probably be trading in my 3+ year old, still works perfectly MacBook (first metal unibody edition) for credit against a MacBook Air when I start grad school, simply because I want to have as light a laptop as possible which stands up to my (non-hard science) computing needs and I have a gaming PC for when I want something with some power behind it.

[Sigaba]

If I do go with the Thinkpad, I've been advised to invest in a sold state hard drive, which will apparently speed things up and outlive the rest of the hardware.

Tangentially, the real attraction of the MBP is the ability to run Final Cut, as film is a hobby of mine (though probably a hobby I will soon drop once grad school work permeates every corner of my life).

SG--

Given the price points of SSHDs, you might get more bang for your buck by getting a large 7200 RPM HDD and applying the difference to a features. When the price points and sizes of SSHDs become more, ah, accessible, you could swap out HDs.

For example, if you were to purchase a Lenovo ThinkPad T520 with a 160 GB SSD, that option would cost $320 more than a 500 GB HDD at 7200 RPM. (Or just $170 if you were to buy this machine during Lenovo's Memorial Day sale.)

With that $320, you could instead get twice as much RAM (from 4 GB to 8 GB), and/or a more powerful CPU, and/or an upgraded warranty, and/or an extra power cord. (IMO, an extra power cord that stays in one's computer bag is a crucial piece of equipment. YMMV.)

A potential advantage of this suggestion--in addition to getting the most for your money--is you'd have a larger HDD to run a Final Cut-type program on your ThinkPad and not need to get additional external storage as quickly.

Just two more cents worth of free advice.

[Russell Grey]

Most people seem to be recommending Lenovo machines, but my experience has been that they don't last very long on battery power. Are those of you with Lenovos happy with the battery life?

[Sigaba]

Most people seem to be recommending Lenovo machines, but my experience has been that they don't last very long on battery power. Are those of you with Lenovos happy with the battery life?

No.

However, I do not use battery saver power options nor turn off background applications that use a lot of power when I'm unplugged. So if I cannot sit near a power outlet, I generally will not bother taking my machine out of my pack or my satchel. (And to be clear, it is a satchel, not a murse. ) So when I'm at the local coffee house, I sneer with green-eyed envy at the MPB users who can sit where they want and (apparently) not worry about running out of juice. But I'm not bitter.

[RockStar]

I'm having this exact dilemma. I have to use SAS for my PhD program so I will need a Windows platform whether I go with Thinkpad or use a dual boot option on the Mac.

The next generation of MPBs are rumored to exclude the optical drive. I'm wondering how this will affect loading Windows via bootcamp or other necessary software that will come on a disk?

[kaijura]

The next generation of MPBs are rumored to exclude the optical drive. I'm wondering how this will affect loading Windows via bootcamp or other necessary software that will come on a disk?

You should be fine, with all the USB/digital download options these days there's really not much other need for a built in optical drive that doesn't get used a good 3/4 chunk of the device's lifetime. You can directly copy from a dvd or load a Win7 install on a usb stick/sd card provided that I believe the minimum capacity necessary to do this is 8GB.

And if you ever really need to use CD's, just grab an external drive. It's a pain lugging around, so hopefully you can clone it to ISO or not have to use that CD often.

Edited May 25, 2012 by kaijura

[AbaNader]

Without getting too much into specs (unless you really want to go there), I'm weighing a MacBook Pro versus a Lenovo Think Pad for my grad school computer.

The essential question is this: Are most statistical software native to Windows, and does that make it a hassle to run them on Mac OS?

Does the hassle of running Windows in Parallels on my MacBook outweigh my slight preference for Mac OS over Windows?

Since I own both: a personal Thinkpad T420 I bought last November and a top-of-the-line Macbook Pro provided by my work recently (I don't know the specs but they have a habit of going for the best thing available), I think I can make an informed judgment. I almost never use my MBPro if I don't have to. It is just too big and seems much to fragile compared to my thinkpad. The thinkpad is versatile, I dropped it a couple of times on stone floor and it doesn't complain, the keyboard feels waaay better, the little trackpoint is handy, and it just feels good. The MBPro is more of a fancy personal computer. I use it to run some of my optimization code or when I need to video chat with someone (the camera is much better than on the thinkpad); the sound on it is also much better. Maybe its because everyone else at work has one but for me it doesn't even have that "status appeal" that some people crave for anymore (not me but I realize some people want to look like they're hip...). Also I think this is unorthodox but I never grew accustomed to MacOSX despite this being my third Mac (I owned two when I was an undergraduate). I never liked the lack of a taskbar and it always irritated me to have to switch windows. I also feel like the design and build quality on the older macs (circa 2005-07) was better than the newer ones (for e.g. I don't know why they changed the first magnetic charger plug style they had -- the new one is more aesthetically appealing but functionally much worse).