Women in grad school

[MakeYourself]

Do any other women in graduate programs sometimes feel like they have to work twice as hard to impress their colleagues, faculty members, or supervisors as a man? I honestly never felt like this before at any point in my education until I started grad school. I don't know if it's just the area that I am in (philosophy). But I feel like I work my ass off to impress supervisors and I always feel like I'm not perceived as intelligent as my male counterparts. Hell, all of the philosophical work that we read was written by men, so I guess it makes sense.

I don't know, maybe I am just actually really dumb and that's the reason no on is impressed with me

But I can't help feeling like men are just viewed as inherently more intelligent and as having more insightful things to say about philosophy.

 

Anyone else feel this way (and what area are you in)? Anyone else not feel this way?

Edited November 28, 2013 by randomness

[St Andrews Lynx]

Sure. 

But then again, I want to work hard to impress the people I meet in grad school anyway, because I'm also a brand-new 1st year grad student. It is hard for me to differentiate between "These people surely think I'm an idiot" (gender discrimination) and "These people surely think I'm an idiot" (impostor syndrome).

[MsDarjeeling]

I'm in psychology and find my classes to be mostly female students and I don't feel the need to work harder to impress them because of my gender.  I have noticed that I have to work much harder to impress female faculty than male faculty.  I'm not entirely sure why that is, but I recall feeling that way even in undergrad.  

[PsychGirl1]

I haven't noticed this, but I did go to an undergrad with more men than women, and was one of only two women in my department in my first job after college. I actually have found it more difficult to transition to a career area with more women than men (psychology) compared to my past careers/education in male-dominated fields. Sometimes, I think it's a matter of perception more than reality. (Although I'm sure gender discrimination is actually a problem in certain places). But I agree with St Andrews Lynx- I mostly assume everyone thinks I'm an idiot, and not because I'm a female, but because I don't know as much as all my genius peers :-D.

Edited November 29, 2013 by PsychGirl1

[PsychGirl1]

I came across this article/video today (http://www.npr.org/blogs/krulwich/2013/11/30/247842138/science-reporter-emily-graslie-reads-her-mail-and-it-s-not-so-nice?ft=1&f=1007) and thought of this thread. I also decided to change my answer :-D.

 

I can think of times in my life when I experienced gender discrimination, but it was always outside of the workplace. I think this was partly due to choosing (or by chance, having) only supportive environments where people valued intelligence over all other traits. I also went to a college with a very good reputation, which I'm sure has helped me minimize this type of experience in the workplace.

 

I can imagine that in certain "cultures"- (I feel like it's probably not field specific, but probably more culture-specific, as in, something you'll find at certain programs or labs based on the people/environment/etc.), this could definitely still be occurring. I feel like sometimes, even as women, we're quick to say you're attributing too much of your feedback to your gender, when we should be more open to this being a possibility and real in certain circumstances.

Edited November 30, 2013 by PsychGirl1

[fuzzylogician]

OP, this is actually a known problem in philosophy (and other fields as well). You can start by reading here: http://feministphilosophers.wordpress.com/.

 

But I can't help feeling like men are just viewed as inherently more intelligent and as having more insightful things to say about philosophy.

 

I think there is probably some truth to your feelings. I've had occasion to feel the same way, where I know for sure that my views are no less valid, interesting or important than what my male colleagues have to say. Yes, as others have mentioned, it's hard to know when someone's behavior is (partly) motivated by gender discrimination and when not, but I think our perception of events is important and not to be ignored or trivialized.

[Tall Chai Latte]

I'm a female in the life sciences, and I don't feel the need to work hard to impress other grad students because of my gender. Everyone is very supportive and collegial. But I found that I need to work harder to impress the female faculty than the male ones; perhaps because they worked very hard to be where they are today, and the process made them become more critical towards grad students in general. Our male faculty are less uptight and more approachable, and those are the ones whom students are attracted to.

[MsDarjeeling]

I'm a female in the life sciences, and I don't feel the need to work hard to impress other grad students because of my gender. Everyone is very supportive and collegial. But I found that I need to work harder to impress the female faculty than the male ones; perhaps because they worked very hard to be where they are today, and the process made them become more critical towards grad students in general. Our male faculty are less uptight and more approachable, and those are the ones whom students are attracted to.

 

YES!  This has been my experience too and that is a plausible reason.

[pears]

YES!  This has been my experience too and that is a plausible reason.

 

Mine as well, although it's very subtle. The academic side of archaeology has shown itself to be a much less judgmental environment for me, though, as a relatively young (23 y.o.) woman than fieldwork. It was a predominantly white male field until not-so-many years ago, and I feel that's carried over a lot, especially when the work involves lots of manual labor. I feel like I always have to hike faster, dig units quickly no matter how heavy the soil is, draw more thorough and accurate profiles, write better reports, etc., when I have male coworkers, lest I not be taken seriously if I don't break a hardcore sweat. Academic skill and precision don't mean much if you can't move dirt as quickly as a man with 30+ more pounds of muscle on his upper body can. I haven't felt that way as a grad student yet, and I suspect I won't.

 

That said, although I've never felt that I have to prove my abilities to my cohort, MA and PhD students alike, I noticed that there's something of a "boy's club": our program coordinator hand-picks a few students to work as his field crew each summer, and it seems his crew has been all male for the last few seasons. I have no idea whether that's been intentional, but I've noticed his past crews tend to stick together and talk (mostly inside jokes) mostly amongst themselves in and out of classes. I'm joining him and an otherwise all-male crew next summer, so we'll see how that pans out for me...

[TeaGirl]

I'm in a pretty male dominated field (mech engineering) but I can't say I've ever felt any sort of gender discrimination at all in grad school, or in undergrad for that matter. I work hard because I want to do well and want to work hard, but I don't feel I'm working any harder than my male colleagues for the same amount of recognition or feedback from my advisors/professors. When I do work harder, it's obvious in my work output and my advisor recognizes the effort.

 

Disclaimer: It's all about results though. You can work as hard you want, if nothing substantial comes out of it, you're not going to get an A for effort on the intelligence perception from anybody. That has little to do with gender. Speaking purely from experience, I've found that perceived intelligence often doesn't much to do with how intelligent you are, but rather with how well you deliver on results and how much you project confidence in these results while doing it.

[NatureGurl]

Do any other women in graduate programs sometimes feel like they have to work twice as hard to impress their colleagues, faculty members, or supervisors as a man? I honestly never felt like this before at any point in my education until I started grad school. I don't know if it's just the area that I am in (philosophy). But I feel like I work my ass off to impress supervisors and I always feel like I'm not perceived as intelligent as my male counterparts. Hell, all of the philosophical work that we read was written by men, so I guess it makes sense.

 

Yeah, I feel this way, too. I did my undergrad in the sciences--a field dominated by men--and I would say that you do have to work harder than males do to achieve the same level of respect. The only way we're going to change things is to keep going and eventually become the ones in charge (although, even females hold implicit biases against females, so we really need to work at a conscious level to promote equity).

Edited December 5, 2013 by NatureGurl

[CageFree]

I'm a female in the life sciences, and I don't feel the need to work hard to impress other grad students because of my gender. Everyone is very supportive and collegial. But I found that I need to work harder to impress the female faculty than the male ones; perhaps because they worked very hard to be where they are today, and the process made them become more critical towards grad students in general. Our male faculty are less uptight and more approachable, and those are the ones whom students are attracted to.

 

I would have to agree a bit here, though I am not sure my female profs INTEND it that way. I can think of a couple that are very intimidating but it's not because they WANT to be... they simply are more impressive than their male counterparts. They are better scholars. They are great advisers. They are very supportive. They ask really tough questions. Some male profs (especially older ones) had less hoops to jump through... had they been held to the same standard as some of my female profs, they wouldn't have been able to compete, IMO.

 

I love working with powerful female profs. They are inspiring!

[juilletmercredi]

I would imagine that this depends on your field.  I don't feel that way (and both of my advisors are men) but both of my fields & departments are roughly gender-balanced (I'm in the social sciences).  If I was in physics or math where the perception is still that men are inherently better, maybe I would feel that way.

 

I sometimes feel that way about my race, but not often, and when I do it's not because of my departmental colleagues and professors.  Everyone so far has been really supportive and awesome and encouraging, sometimes *because* I am black ("Black women are underrepresented in X, so it's neat that you want to do that.")  It's just because of the general racial makeup of my field and the knowledge that wherever I go, I will be in the minority in that way.

[nnnnnnn]

I don't know how to phrase this like I'm not trying to start an argument...

 

The "I don't see this in my field" sentiment... I just feel like even if it's subtle doesn't mean it's not there?

 

Specifically addressing TeaGirl, I'm not a mechanical engineer but I've had a decent amount of experience in that area. Maybe it's just chance that anywhere I've been in the field seems so "boys club" to me. That said, I feel that the effort to address gender discrimination can help a lot even if it doesn't solve the problem...

 

At any rate, I'm reminded of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=kOjNcZvwjxI

 

IMO, the problem is that you still have discrimination-justification...

Like this:  http://scripting.com/2013/08/19/whyArentThereMoreWomenProgrammers

And this: http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/546561-the-challenge-to-read-50-50-male-female.html#post1774638

Two completely different fields, yet pretty much the same logic of ascribing a deficit in female representation to inherent female traits that result in lower quality work.

Edited December 7, 2013 by nnnnnnn

[DropTheBase]

I agree with nnnnnnn. I work in a VERY male-dominate field, and if a woman doesn't see the extra challenges she faces, it's because we're better at hiding it. The prejudices can be extremely subtle. We have a long way to go before gender discrimination is effectively eliminated from the work-place.

 

For example, this offensive monstrosity:

 

At any rate, I'm reminded of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=kOjNcZvwjxI

 

I will bet you anything that this commercial was written by men. It's an extremely (and obviously) manipulative way to target women. What the hell does shampoo have to do with gender labels and prejudice??

 

---

 

At least in my field, many men I encounter genuinely believe they are better researchers on some level or another. They think they're more creative, more focused, more emotionally stable or some other stereotype. It's very difficult to change someone's inherent beliefs. It might be hard to see men exhibit these beliefs. Your best chance of seeing it is if you catch them under heavy stress. 

 

It's so ironic because we are training ourselves to be scientists, which are trained to see more than just what they want to see. 

DTB

[TeaGirl]

The "I don't see this in my field" sentiment... I just feel like even if it's subtle doesn't mean it's not there?

 

I agree with nnnnnnn. I work in a VERY male-dominate field, and if a woman doesn't see the extra challenges she faces, it's because we're better at hiding it. The prejudices can be extremely subtle. We have a long way to go before gender discrimination is effectively eliminated from the work-place.

 

To be perfectly clear, I was never discriminated against academically and I was never "hiding" anything.

 

I've never felt the "boy's club" thing in my field whether socially or academically. Socially speaking, being a male dominated field, you will see male students hanging out in groups a lot of the time (especially when there was only 8 girls in class of 80 in my undergrad). If I'd felt intimidated by intruding on an all-male group perfectly naturally doing male-oriented activities, I might've stayed away. If I'd thought about gender discrimination a lot, I might've attributed my inability to fit in to gender discrimination.

I didn't though. Perhaps, naively, I wasn't aware that I was supposed to be discriminated against based on gender. I just walked up to the all-male groups, said hello, introduced my awkward self and made friends. The group naturally adjusted its social dynamics to suit everyone.

 

Academically, I have never felt discriminated against. I want to earn the respect of my colleagues and professors, both male and female, not because I'm a woman but because I'm good at what I do. It's how it's supposed to work. I worked very hard to be good but comparing myself to close male colleagues and friends I've never had to work harder than they did to earn the same respect.

If there were a couple of guys generally regarded as smarter or better, it was because they were actually smarter and put in more work than I did, and not because they were male and I was female.

 

Some men do think they're better researchers when they're not, but so do some women. I have two co-advisors, one male and one female. They both think they're always right and have the better idea/plan, but clearly they can't both be right when they disagree on scientific opinions so often. It's not some male specific issue but rather than a human ego issue. Unfortunately, the path to becoming a researcher/prof. tends to foster having a bit of an ego about how much better your research is than everyone else's. I've rarely met a "humble" professor to be honest, male or female.

 

I respect both of your opinions, but I don't understand why it's so hard to believe that someone didn't experience gender discrimination just because it contradicts your world view or personal experiences. While I'm 100% certain that there are plenty of women facing real gender discrimination, I find discounting the experiences of women who say they are not and looking for discrimination where there is none is itself discriminatory against both genders: It discriminates against women by belittling their minds and not assuming them intelligent enough to understand their own personal experiences, and by not treating them as adults responsible for their own shortcomings. It discriminates against men by belittling any success they have to favoritism, wrongly attributing gender discrimination to them and making them contend with some invisible unknowable meter of what exactly that is supposed to be.

Edited December 8, 2013 by TeaGirl

[NatureGurl]

All I have to say is look at the stats: male professors make more than female professors do.

 

Gender discrimination is a complex issue, but the numbers are pretty clear to me. It doesn't matter if it's a male-dominated field or not, and it's not as simple as men discriminating against women--women discriminate against women, too. It's not our faults necessarily--we've been socialized to believe that women are less capable than men, or should serve in particular roles in society (as mother, wife, homemaker, caregiver, etc.). Partly it's our nature (again, not saying that men can't be caretakers). My personality type, for instance, is even nicknamed "the caregiver"! I'm not saying that women and men are equal--we're not. But neither is one better than the other. We're different, and that's okay. But it's not okay that women do the same work that men do and receive less pay. In the academy, this translates to 10-20% less pay for women than men.

Edited December 8, 2013 by NatureGurl

[TeaGirl]

But it's not okay that women do the same work that men do and receive less pay. In the academy, this translates to 10-20% less pay for women than men.

 

Do you happen to have the source for that? I'm interested in reading that study.

 

 

Also, just as a note, I'm not saying I've never experienced gender discrimination in my life, because I have. I faced a lot of that applying to the job market, especially outside the U.S., and in other areas as well. I was just responding to the question which asked about discrimination specifically in the academic/grad school setting.

Edited December 8, 2013 by TeaGirl

[rising_star]

There's lots of studies about this. I did a quick Google scholar search and came up with a few. You can choose which one(s) you believe are most reliable.

 

http://www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10419/34046/1/51436131X.pdf

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2012/04/focus-3

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0763170.html

http://ec.europa.eu/justice/gender-equality/gender-pay-gap/index_en.htm

http://www.aauw.org/files/2013/02/graduating-to-a-pay-gap-the-earnings-of-women-and-men-one-year-after-college-graduation.pdf

http://www.jec.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?p=Earnings&ContentRecord_id=db19df76-9299-4b46-a98c-ef33c21dab3d&ContentType_id=2206321f-9e59-4f98-b972-d78c64abf642&Group_id=51e071bd-07e9-46f2-bb70-cfc28baec8be

http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/CP200.pdf

http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/GenderGap.html

 

I assume those are enough links to get you started.

[DropTheBase]

To be perfectly clear, I was never discriminated against academically and I was never "hiding" anything.

 

I respect both of your opinions, but I don't understand why it's so hard to believe that someone didn't experience gender discrimination just because it contradicts your world view or personal experiences. 

 

First off, I'm talking about men hiding their prejudices. Second, if you genuinely believe that you've never been academically discriminated against, that's a good thing! The reason it's so hard to believe that you haven't been discriminated is because no one can be certain that they haven't been discriminated against.

 

Let's say there's a visiting male professor coming to give a seminar, and a male PI can only take one person in the group to dinner and drinks with the speaker. Let's say the PI chooses a guy instead of a girl in the group. How does the girl rationalize that choice? How does she know that the PI didn't choose the guy because he thought the speaker would be more comfortable having dinner with another guy? There's no obvious discrimination there. In fact, the girl might settle to thinking that the guy:

 

generally regarded as smarter or better, ... was (selected) because (he was) actually smarter and put in more work than I did, and not because (he was) male and I was female.

 

 

Ideally, that will actually be true, but one has no way of knowing.

 

That's why we rely on statistics to suggest gender discrimination.The numbers indicate that there is still active gender discrimination. It's often carried out in such a way that's not at all obvious. Men have gotten so good at hiding their sexism that they might not even realize when they're discriminating.

 

DTB

[Tall Chai Latte]

I would have to agree a bit here, though I am not sure my female profs INTEND it that way. I can think of a couple that are very intimidating but it's not because they WANT to be... they simply are more impressive than their male counterparts. They are better scholars. They are great advisers. They are very supportive. They ask really tough questions. Some male profs (especially older ones) had less hoops to jump through... had they been held to the same standard as some of my female profs, they wouldn't have been able to compete, IMO.

 

I love working with powerful female profs. They are inspiring!

 

I do think our female faculty are more impressive. My advisor is one such professor, her being a female on top of being an ex-international grad student/postdoc made her hop through even more hoops, and she emerged with several papers in the top journals and a faculty position at a top-20 school. At the same time, I feel intimidated as her student and lots of pressure to perform well, otherwise I'm breaking her CV or something LOL.

[TeaGirl]

There's lots of studies about this. I did a quick Google scholar search and came up with a few. You can choose which one(s) you believe are most reliable.

 

http://www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10419/34046/1/51436131X.pdf

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2012/04/focus-3

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0763170.html

http://ec.europa.eu/justice/gender-equality/gender-pay-gap/index_en.htm

http://www.aauw.org/files/2013/02/graduating-to-a-pay-gap-the-earnings-of-women-and-men-one-year-after-college-graduation.pdf

http://www.jec.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?p=Earnings&ContentRecord_id=db19df76-9299-4b46-a98c-ef33c21dab3d&ContentType_id=2206321f-9e59-4f98-b972-d78c64abf642&Group_id=51e071bd-07e9-46f2-bb70-cfc28baec8be

http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/CP200.pdf

http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/GenderGap.html

 

I assume those are enough links to get you started.

 

Thanks!

[rising_star]

This post from Vitae, a Chronicle site, is probably also relevant: https://chroniclevitae.com/news/143-what-i-learned-from-ripplesofdoubt

[nnnnnnn]

To address three particular points in order...

 

If there were a couple of guys generally regarded as smarter or better, it was because they were actually smarter and put in more work than I did, and not because they were male and I was female.

 

Some men do think they're better researchers when they're not, but so do some women.

 

I respect both of your opinions, but I don't understand why it's so hard to believe that someone didn't experience gender discrimination just because it contradicts your world view or personal experiences.

 

1) Many women think this about men who are actually not more capable then they are.

 

2) Yes, both cases exist, but what matters more is the relative prevalence in which they exist.

 

3) What metrics do you use to assess the gender discrimination? Admittedly, you are not provided with many same-gender peers. Probably, you are not provided with many same-gender mentors. Statistically speaking, you will likely get less credit than a man for the same work. (I linked a science-specific article but this trend generally exists.)

 

That's why we rely on statistics to suggest gender discrimination.The numbers indicate that there is still active gender discrimination.

 

Yes.

Edited December 9, 2013 by nnnnnnn

[nnnnnnn]

(My previous edit was because I made an incorrect link.)

 

My main frustration is when I feel people argue that gender discrimination won't exist if women simply rise above it.

• This view discredits a lot of women who put in extra effort they shouldn't have to (and maybe they still find themselves behind).
• I believe that many links in this thread show that this issue is embedded in social expectations and bias from authoritative/managerial figures.
• The statistics are improving but still pretty bad. I think a large cooperative effort is necessary to address the gender gap.

I'm not saying that this is TeaGirl's point,and upon reflection, I believe it's unfair that I single out her statements to make my own arguments.