None Of It Matters

[jakem]

I submitted my (13) applications (Social Psychology PhD) a few days ago. I was about to start descending into a rabid mania of checking email every few seconds, but then I had a realization. When it really comes down to it, none of this matters.

 

I mean, seriously. We're scientists here. Do we really think that going to school XYZ or ABC is going to make us a better thinker? A better planner? Give us special skills to make special science? It's all crazy, when you look at this process critically.

 

You are you, no matter where you go or what you do. If you're going to do great science, you'll do it anywhere. Sure, a prestigious degree will help you get into more prestigious schools. But that's circular logic. None of it involves better science or a better, more peaceful planet. Prestige begets prestige.

 

So until someone can get me a peer reviewed study that shows that world-changing science and GREs are statistically correlated, I'm simply going to throw up my hands and tell myself this is all a big joke, a game. A game I'll still dutifully play, mind you. But a game nonetheless.

[Loric]

Wow, you actually prompted me to post again..

 

A) We are not all scientists, thank you very much.

 

Have you MET the people who hang out around here? They live for academia, not because they give even the slightest crap about science, world peace, or anything altruistic. They want gold stars and if someone with a higher rank isn't patting them on the head they don't understand how they can be allowed ti exist. 

 

Frankly, your thread was comforting to see - i'd written pretty much everyone here off as an absolute jack wagon a week or so ago - but it's good to know not EVERYONE is insane or misguided or whatever the heck is wrong with these people and the way they think it's ok to think and place priorities. 

 

A first I thought it was the stress that made people completely unpleasent, but the deeper I dug the more fundamental character flaws were exposed. "I did "broader impact" (aka: community service but for grad school apps) to boost my applications.." - Heaven forbid they do it for.. i dunno.. the sake of helping others. My colleagues were aghast to learn of the nonsense I found in the grad school applicant ranks.. further they were saddened by how rampant it is. 

 

So bravo to you for not being a total douche nozzle. Here's hoping you get in, and they get the serving of reality they seem to desperately need. We know it wont work out fairly like that, but sometimes apparently adcomms do give applicants the "sniff" test and sometimes weed out the ones who seem to be completely full of it.

Edited December 3, 2013 by Loric

[Loric]

Note: In the end, it's better to be a grad school applicant than an undergrad applicant.. lest you be mowed down by the helicopter parents that run rampant on those forums. 

Edited December 3, 2013 by Loric

[Solnce]

Hi Jakem, first of all - let me advise you to switch to gmail - you would not need to check your e-mail at all. On your PC or Mac you just need to keep it open, and it will inform you when you get a new e-mail. On your iphone or android it just informs you even when the gmail app is not running. (I don't know how it works for other types of phones). 

 

And I agree with you - you have done what you could. After that the result does not really matter. 

 

On the other hand I know why I want to be admitted by a top school - just to know - what it is  - to study at one of the best universities in the world. To use those facilities. Just to feel everything.

 

But I am completely sure that there is no a bad school in the USA. The competition is so strong so even in small schools there are exceptional scientists that come from all over the world. Any school gives a really great education, and it only up to students what to do with the lives after they finish. 

 

Personally I hope to be admitted by any school I applied - I would be happy. But if I get admitted by a top school - I would get more dopamine, which shortly (after a year of study for sure) I would stop getting. Because it will be just a study. 

 

A top school does not promise you the best career. Only You, yourself, can promise that.

 

At the end, we all just want to be happy

Edited December 3, 2013 by Solnce

[GeoDUDE!]

While I want to agree with the sentiment, as it seems it would give hope to many people on this forum, I can't help but wonder If you have ever experienced the research environment at a top tier university AND the research environment at a lower ranked university? I certainly have, and going from an IVY league to a lower ranked public institution was night and day. Prestige itself does not get your paper published in nature, that prestige often brings money to conduct an experiment or project that is of higher quality than ones at lesser universities. Obviously, I am speaking in generalities.

 

With regards to applications, there is a larger point; Does doing better on the GRE make you any less likely to conduct great research? If there is no correlation between research and GRE, which I think there probably is a stronger one than many would like to admit, because there is a large correlation between competency and GRE scores. Why should a grad school take someone with a lower GRE score ? Is that person with a lower GRE score really that much more special? How can someone call them self a scientist yet not be able to do high school level math ?  Maybe you can get through graduate classes if you did poorly on the GRE, as many people in my program did, but graduate level classes aren't supposed to be hard or take up a lot of time. Research is. And if you have to struggle with high school level math in your classes, it's going to eat up all your research time.

 

Graduate Schools want students to be healthy. If you have to work 80 hours a week to get all your work done, you aren't going to be healthy. There will be weeks where you work a ton, but if every week you are not sleeping and every week you are working all the time you will not be happy. I would bet my left nut that there is a correlation between strong research and happiness.

 

With poor stats, there is a case to be made. I had barley above a 3.0 GPA in physics with a few conference presentations / REUs and found myself in a fully funded masters program. But don't kid yourself and think that prestigious schools are all smoke and mirrors; Funding can deliver stability, along with many other things. Fusion needs lasers to heat up atoms. It is difficult to find out we are not who we someone think we are; We all can't be great. Somewhat depressing, to confront yourself.

Edited December 3, 2013 by GeoDUDE!

[juilletmercredi]

Have you MET the people who hang out around here? They live for academia, not because they give even the slightest crap about science, world peace, or anything altruistic. They want gold stars and if someone with a higher rank isn't patting them on the head they don't understand how they can be allowed ti exist. 

 

Very nice sweeping generalization of all of the graduate students on this forum, Loric.

 

Will going to the number-4 ranked school over the number-5 ranked school make you a better thinker than you otherwise would've been?  No, probably not.  But assuming that there's fundamentally no difference between programs is a mistake, I think.  Different programs have different atmospheres, environments, resources - things that can certainly shape your personality and the science that you choose to perform, as well as the career options you consider.

 

But I think it IS good to realize that you will be a person of worth and value regardless of whether you go to grad school, and regardless of whether any particular program accepts you.

 

I do disagree, though, that

 

1) there's a correlation between GRE and research capacity (the GRE correlates - weakly - with grad school GPA, but your performance in classes has very little to do with your capacity to do research.  And there's definitely no evidence for any, much less a "large" correlation between "competency" and the GRE.  Plus there are plenty of PhD programs that don't require facility with high-school level math.)

 

2) that "graduate schools want students to be healthy" (certain professors within programs may. But overall, the enterprise is not a healthy one).

[qualthian]

You should read this.

 

http://academia.stackexchange.com/questions/90/university-rank-stature-how-much-does-it-affect-ones-career-post-ph-d/154#154

[DropTheBase]

You made my day, Loric. Have an upvote!

 

@jakem

 

While department quality is certainly a factor (as mentioned above), I believe it comes down to the PI. I was lucky to know what I wanted to do going into graduate school, and I knew which professors I wanted to work for. Each of them were doing excellent science and published in powerful journals. The range of school ranking between those professors' respective institutions was ~30! I would have been happy at either of them, and I didn't pick the highest ranking one. 

 

DTB

[Loric]

So.. fun fact..

 

People who take offense to broad statements are those who identify qualities laid out in the statement as being identifiers of self..

 

Just sayin.

[GeoDUDE!]

So.. fun fact..

 

People who take offense to broad statements are those who identify qualities laid out in the statement as being identifiers of self..

 

Just sayin.

 

We have different definitions of what facts are.

 

Just sayin.

[socioholic]

i've come to peace with the overwhelming odds that i will not be admitted. surprisingly, the application process proved to be invaluable to simply providing a little clarity about what i really wanted to do, specifically, it made me realize that this is not the only path. in the face of certain rejection, i started about thinking of all the other ways i could work in this/that capacity without a phd and found there were more options than i originally acknowledged.

 

 

[Loric]

i've come to peace with the overwhelming odds that i will not be admitted. surprisingly, the application process proved to be invaluable to simply providing a little clarity about what i really wanted to do, specifically, it made me realize that this is not the only path. in the face of certain rejection, i started about thinking of all the other ways i could work in this/that capacity without a phd and found there were more options than i originally acknowledged.

 

Don't say things like that! You'll penetrate their dellusions! And then what? WHAT? What will do with all that laundry they sorted for that professor to get an A instead of an A-?

[fuzzylogician]

Don't say things like that! You'll penetrate their dellusions! And then what? WHAT? What will do with all that laundry they sorted for that professor to get an A instead of an A-?

 

Loric, please stop with these posts. You're turning into a troll that really does deserve the down-votes you're getting.

[Loric]

Not surprisingly.. what -you- think still doesn't matter. 

[Althonse]

I think this post is great, but instituion does matter on some level. What we're all really after is the best training that we can get. There are more labs at "high caliber" institutions that will be able to give you the best training, though of course there are good labs and bad labs everywhere. So by going to a better school, you're giving yourself a better opportunity for the best training. It quickly devolves and becomes stupid though, because the reason that those universities are considered the "best" and attract the best labs is just bias. Everyone is biased to well known universities and labs, and so the name alone benefits you.

 

Anyway, not to end on too pessimistic a note. I think that wherever you go, as long as you find a good lab, get good training, and do well, then you will be fine!

[jakem]

So just as an update: I found out recently that I have an interview next month at Princeton University. Which is exciting! But I stand by my original statement. It'd be nice to go to a school like that, with great resources, blah blah, but it's not essential.

[Icydubloon]

Not surprisingly.. what -you- think still doesn't matter. 

 

Agreed. Many people think their opinion and views matter, when in reality, they don't. 

Edited December 27, 2013 by Icydubloon