Applying to PHD English with an MA

[SilasWegg]

I keep hearing mixed messages regarding applicants applying to PhD English programs who already hold an MA. Some say the best programs want you right out of undergrad. Others say the MA is supposed to train you for PhD work and programs recruit from MA programs heavily. Should an MA in English write a thesis or is that just a waste of time? What else can an MA do to strengthen an application to PhD programs in English?

 

Perhaps you are currently thriving in a top PhD program and your MA was the difference maker? Or maybe you now languish in academic obscurity, your MA gathering dust? 

 

Tell me augurs of graduate destiny... what is the MA?

[poliscar]

I don't think that there's a fixed answer here, since it really depends on circumstance. I think that both positions, a.e. an M.A. puts you in better stead, or that top programs prefer students fresh out of a BA, are mainly based on hearsay. 

What I will say is that a thesis-based MA isn't useful because of the end-product, since you're going to have to cut it down to a chapter if you intend to use it as a writing sample. What is helpful is the process; writing a thesis in an MA program (and, to a lesser extent, in a BA program) helps you better understand your own intellectual goals, as well as how they are positioned within current debates. 

That being said, you don't have to write a thesis to have clear intellectual goals, or an understanding of the field. A lot of MA programs will have a proseminar to help you develop that knowledge. Alongside that, most MA programs will also do more in the way of facilitating/supporting applications to PhD programs, unlike BA programs, where a continuation of studies into a doctorate generally isn't considered to be a norm.

With all of that said, I think it really comes down to the individual. If you think that you have a clear enough understanding of your own academic interests, and that you can field a strong application, then apply to PhD programs. If you're not sure about that, think about an MA. Moreover, if you look at coursework based masters programs and they don't seem as though they'd help you develop your own interests, it's probably better to look at thesis based programs. 
 

Also, as always, think about money. In some cases a thesis based MA will cost you more money, or extend beyond the time that a course based program would. Moreover, MA programs are often quite expensive, and are generally seen as cash grabs. That isn't to say that they won't help you progress to a good PhD program, but that you most likely won't be eligible for funding. In the case that the MA program in question isn't terminal, you may also find yourself competing with PhD students for attention (also hearsay, but it's worth contacting current MA students at the programs in question). Based on this, it's best to research MA programs beforehand, so as to prevent yourself from going deeply into debt (never worth it), or from finding yourself in a program in which you're not taken seriously or given attention. 

[Gauche]

This is probably going to be very unorganized, but this is the way I understand it. An MA is a program that gives you a little taste of what graduate school is like. Many people who go for the MA are interested in staying in school because a) they love their area of study; are afraid to leave academia and go out on the job market directly out of school; c) both a and b; d) some other reason. Many MA programs are offered at universities, but not all universities offer PhD programs. Many if not all teaching intensive universities do not offer PhD programs.

 

As you mentioned, it's not always a "bad thing" for students to start with the MA first since there are a handful of programs that are looking for students to be "trained" in MA programs before they can enter PhD programs. The thing is, undergraduates are just not trained to enter PhD work right away. But because grad school has become super competitive nowadays, many universities prefer taking in the *best* students straight from undergrad so they can train them themselves. Besides, if you're someone who isn't ready for grad school, you're most likely not going to jump into the PhD program right away but maybe the MA instead. Let's say someone decides to go ahead and apply for the MA program at a university who accepts MA and PhD students but doesn't have a set amount for each track. If you're the school, and you receive this application from a prospective MA student when you already have an application from a prospective PhD student, who would you choose? The student who may or may not stay for the PhD program when everything is said or done or the other student who seems dedicated enough to stay during the five years and hopefully get done in that amount of time?

 

I hope any of that makes sense. I know there are flaws to some points I made, but I don't really have time to work them out right now. I just wanted a break from writing something for one of my deadlines.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Gauche

[hashslinger]

It's really a toss-up. An MA does great things--it helps you figure out your interests, hone a writing sample, and get a taste of grad school. Really, a student who already has an MA should be looked at as lower risk for dropping out since he or she already knows what grad school requires and is perhaps older and a little more mature. Personally, if I were making the decisions about admissions, I would prefer to see an MA.

 

However, the highest ranked and most "elite" programs seem to prefer people without MAs. And if they do entertain candidates with an MA, they typically hold the MA to higher standards.

 

I do know people at top programs who got MA degrees. But not a lot of people. Like, I can count them on one hand. (And I'm not counting people who got a master's at Oxford or Cambridge. You will see a lot of those in the Ivies.)

 

In addition, my own program used to accept MAs but now prefers to accept BAs straight into the PhD program. And we're not the only ones. During the time I've been in grad school, I've seen a lot of programs phase out terminal MA programs in order to be more like the Ivies. (To be honest, I'm glad I got my MA before this whole trend started. I think it might be tougher out there for an MA these days.)

 

If you're an MA looking to move up in the world, the best thing you can do to maximize your chances is write one really great seminar paper, one you market as a potential dissertation chapter. And then, revise the hell out of it. And make sure that the rest of your application is equally stellar--numbers, recs, CV.

Edited January 7, 2014 by hashslinger

[rhetoricus aesalon]

So, as you can see, there is no straight answer to your question. But, I do want to add caution against some of the more defamatory remarks about MA programs. This has not been my experience at all, nor does it seem to align with what I've witnessed. Especially in a job market as crappy as ours, I have been told it can actually work to your advantage to network with more advisors (and their networks) rather than stay confined to one program for 6+ years. The opportunity to negotiate better funding between the MA/PhD split can be much more tricky when remaining at the same institution, too.

 

My advice is to be wary of unfunded MA programs, but not the programs themselves. 

 

Your best bet will be to contact the schools to ask about their preference. Some will be very up front in what they look for, in which case everything else you are being told is hearsay.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Chadillac

[hashslinger]

As has already been made painfully clear, there is no straight answer to your question. But, I do want to caution against some of the more defamatory remarks being made about MA programs. This has not been my experience at all, nor does it seem to align with what I've witnessed. Especially in a job market as crappy as ours, I have been told it can actually work to your advantage to network with more advisors (and their networks) rather than stay confined to one program for 6+ years. The opportunity to negotiate better funding between the MA/PhD split can be much more tricky when remaining at the same institution, too.

 

My advice is to be wary of unfunded MA programs, but not the programs themselves. 

 

Your best bet will be to contact the schools to ask about their preference. Some will be very up front in what they look for, in which case everything else you are being told is hearsay.

 

I agree that having first-hand experience at more than one program is particularly advantageous. You get see how different programs work and what they value. I moved from a program very invested in cultural studies to one focused more on poetics, and the contrast was interesting. I also got to see how different programs approach teaching and professionalization.

 

However, I'm not sure if it worked out for me in terms of networking. I turned down a PhD spot at my MA institution to go elsewhere ... and that can be uncomfortable. Sometimes professors are a little distant when you leave their program for another one--not in a way that's grubby or unprofessional ... but obviously they're more invested in seeing their own PhDs succeed rather than the MA who "traded up" for a better program. And at the end of the day, you're known by your PhD institution, not your MA institution. Basically, it was difficult for me to keep in touch with the professors at my MA institution, but maybe I'm just terrible at networking.

 

Of course, it never hurts to have friends from multiple cohorts.

 

But in terms of the job market, I think you want to just do what you can to get into the best program for your interests.

 

And agreed on funding. Don't listen to people who say that you have to pay for your MA. There are so many out there with stipends and TAships that no one should ever have to do an unfunded MA.

[PeakPerformance]

Strictly in terms of admissions decisions: If you are coming from a good school and have distinguished yourself as exceptional in some way as an undergrad -- e.g., presented at conferences, won awards offered by your department, published, etc. -- then an MA is less important. An MA is helpful in making less than exceptional candidates more competitive at the best universities. Rather than getting your PhD at a second-tier school, it's worth taking the time to get an MA and making yourself a more competitive candidate for a top-tier program. I've seen several students rejected from  PhD programs at second-tier universities get an MA and then get accepted in PhD programs at Hopkins and Berkeley. If you are serious about becoming an academic you need to get your PhD from the best possible school with the best scholars in your field. The MA can be a useful means to this end.

[SilasWegg]

Nice thread all. Great perspectives all around. 

 

I'm still unclear about the perceived value of the MA thesis. Its true that a master's thesis could never serve as a writing sample, yet can't an impressive writing sample be sourced from/honed by the thesis project? Or perhaps its easier just to work up a seminar paper, try to publish it, and use that as a writing sample?

 

Though personal threads can be annoyingly unhelpful to readers, I'm gonna go ahead and provide some personal context that may help focus our discussion. I'm currently in a funded MA, teaching freshman comp, 4.0 gpa. I think I want to apply to PhDs for Fall 2015. I'm gonna be on the older side of things (33 at the age of application). My undergrad GPA is awful. For me, and others like me, is the MA my academic ceiling or is it a springboard to the next level?

[Swagato]

 Its true that a master's thesis could never serve as a writing sample, yet can't an impressive writing sample be sourced from/honed by the thesis project? Or perhaps its easier just to work up a seminar paper, try to publish it, and use that as a writing sample?

 

For me, and others like me, is the MA my academic ceiling or is it a springboard to the next level?

 

1. The MA thesis can definitely be reworked into a writing sample. Some places (eg., the University of Chicago's MAPH) expressly design the MA thesis to be your shot at an awesome writing sample. Alternately, as you note, the MA offers an opportunity for further research at a higher level that can see a great seminar paper become your writing sample. I actually got to try both tactics; my first round of applications used my MA thesis as the writing sample, while my second round used a revised seminar paper.

 

2. It's impossible to say. Does it offer an opportunity, a leg up? Yes. Is it a guaranteed one? No. 

[hashslinger]

If you're trying to get into PhD programs, then your goal as an MA student should be to write the best writing sample possible. If writing an MA thesis helps you do that, then go for it. If working more closely on a seminar paper helps you achieve this, then do that instead.

 

From the admissions side of things, I don't think it matters either way. The year I got in, my program admitted people who had done MA theses and people who hadn't. I didn't do one and instead submitted a heavily revised seminar paper as my writing sample.

[bgguitarist]

I'll be finding out whether or not my M.A. helped in the next couple of months (*crosses fingers*). But, as someone who did not go to a prestigious university for undergrad (or M.A., actually), here's how I think the M.A. has made me a better candidate: more time to hone research and submit papers to journals; more faculty attention / help with said research; more experience and more focus (undergrad requires so much splitting of one's attention); more time to make academic contacts (faculty in my department as well as scholars whom I've shared interests or even just food/drinks with at conferences); teaching experience--although research is emphasized at the PhD level, I have access to TAs and GTFs right off the bat because I now have years of experience; and, last but not least, more time to become confident in and explore my specific field (and subfields) of interest. 

 

Now, whether or not any of this really helps me with an ad comm, who knows?

 

I do know that, as a first generation grad student whose immediate family is working class and conservative in a very Ayn Rand, productivity=physical labor, capitalistic sort of way (I'm not bashing it, it's just not for me--as evidenced by my chosen career field), the only reason I am able even to think about PhD school is because I went for the M.A. first. I don't know if this makes sense to anyone else, but between having to justify my early B.A. to my family, having to stay local so that I wouldn't starve if I couldn't make ends meet despite working multiple part-time jobs, and having to somehow achieve more than just summa cum laude to stand out as an applicant, M.A. was my best option.

 

My situation wasn't ideal in terms of applications, but I think it worked out for the best. I can honestly say my M.A. professors are friends, and they've helped me every step of the way.

[NowMoreSerious]

Applied last year to 16 schools with an MA from an unranked state school. I got into 8 great places but I did get shut out of top 5 ivy type schools. Not sure if my MA was a factor, but I doubt it. My friend the year previous, from the same MA program, made it into an Ivy and is there now.

[SilasWegg]

NowMoreSerious your post gives me some hope. Like you, I'm an MA at an "unranked state school." I'm applying to UPENN but other than that ivy type programs aren't for me. Do you mind sharing your application info? Where did you apply? Where did you get in etc?

[NowMoreSerious]

NowMoreSerious your post gives me some hope. Like you, I'm an MA at an "unranked state school." I'm applying to UPENN but other than that ivy type programs aren't for me. Do you mind sharing your application info? Where did you apply? Where did you get in etc?

Rejected from: Princeton, Upenn, Brown, Duke, Maryland, NYU, Berkeley

Did not hear back from: Rutgers

Accepted: UC Davis, UC Santa Barbara, Purdue, University of Virginia, Tufts, UCLA, University of Minnesota (CSDS, not English).

My fields were late 19th Century American Literature, Utopian Theory, and Digital Humanities/Rhetoric.

If you have any further questions don't hesitate to ask. I'm very transparent about these things and I'm always willing to share info about my entire application experience.

[smellybug]

I also have an MA from a unranked state school and did surprisingly well last year. However, I didn't apply to any Ivies, thinking I wouldn't get in. I should have gone for it.

[shortstack51]

Reading this thread has given me some hope. It's 1 AM and I've been up obsessing over my applications, even though I know I won't hear back for another month at minimum. I'm at a mid-ranking school for MA (somewhere in the low 40s I think for graduate English programs). I was not funded, but I do work as a TA, tutor, and GA at my school and have done so for both years. I applied to 10 or 11 schools, only a couple ivy (NYU, harvard, princeton), and otherwise just a lot of top 30 funded programs (as I was told to do by the professional development person in my department). My BA was from an unranked school with no graduate English program at all, and I was rejected from all but 1 school when I was first applying to MA programs.

 

I was told that an MA from my school would actually help quite a bit since my school has enough name recognition to apparently put my name towards the top of the pre-cut app list (past MA students have gotten into UCLA, Princeton, etc). However, there were some programs that asked students with MAs not to apply at all and some that said they would only accept 24 credits of previous MA work (my MA is 30 credits, plus the 0 credit thesis course), so I've started to get pretty nervous.

 

My program has a PhD program that requires a separate application to enter after the MA, though it's been implied that I should be accepted into it if all goes well (good funding as well, also a stellar 80% of full-time job placement, 60% tenure-track). Hopefully, my current school will be at least one acceptance I can expect.

 

I have some worries keeping me up, though: for example, what happens if I don't get accepted into a program (or into a program with good funding)? Since I was unfunded as an MA, my loans are through the roof. It will take me until I'm 50 or so to pay them off. I know you can defer loans if you can't afford to pay them back, but it's really stressful to think about flailing around in the job market with an English degree and little direction with a massive amount of loans and loan interest to pay back. This is, of course, aside from the fact that I also very much want to get my PhD and to pursue my interests and course of study.

 

Additionally, because I work so much in order to pay living expenses on top of a full-time course load (30-40 hours of work a week plus 3 seminar courses), I did not have as much time to devote to my application as I would have liked in the fall. I'm nervous that my statement and writing sample are not as on point as they should have been as a result. I had some help from faculty, but the faculty at my school were equally busy and I didn't get as much assistance as I would have liked (one of my rec providers was almost 2 weeks late on a few of my apps).

 

Anyway, sorry to unload my anxieties on you all, but these things have really been weighing on me going forward. I stay awake at night worrying about my applications and just waiting for that first rejection to appear. I'm quite young for a graduating MA student, as I understand it--I'm 23 and one of the two youngest people in my program--so I just also feel like I don't really have any real life experience to balance out the monstrous application process. I feel like I'm going to wake up with gray hair one morning.

[Kamisha]

I spoke with Richard Hudson (UC-Berkeley) at the WLA conference this year and specifically asked him about this issue. He said that his program prefers MA candidates to BA candidates and that most schools worth their salt do, as well. That could have just been his opinion, though. 

 

Just another hat to throw into the mix. 

[cbttcher]

I spoke with Richard Hudson (UC-Berkeley) at the WLA conference this year and specifically asked him about this issue. He said that his program prefers MA candidates to BA candidates and that most schools worth their salt do, as well. That could have just been his opinion, though. 

 

Just another hat to throw into the mix. 

Then there's also the other end of the spectrum with Boston University. Apparently, they only take one person who already has an MA each year. All other admitted students only have the BA. At least, that's what I heard about BU and I certainly didn't get in last year according to the 3(!) rejection mails/letters I got.

[perrykm2]

it depends on the program. the best thing to do is to email the director of graduate studies before you submit an app, if you're still submitting.