Waitlist Thread

[Table]

As one of my undergrad professors once told me, if you are not willing to take an offer somewhere because of the location and other such 'social life' issues, then it would seem that you are not actually serious about pursuing the PhD. 

 

I really think this is a mistake. People need to consider all of the factors that will impact their ability to be happy somewhere, because unhappy students do worse work and often end up leaving without a degree. 

 

If location isn't going to have a big impact on your ability to be happy somewhere, that's great. But telling a student that taking these factors into account suggests you're not actually serious… christ. 

Edited March 16, 2014 by Table

[Hilbert's timequake]

I really think this is a mistake. People need to consider all of the factors that will impact their ability to be happy somewhere, because unhappy students do worse work and often end up leaving without a degree. 

 

I agree. But I guess the prof means something like: to allow a little bit of difference in social life to affect your happiness to the extent that cripples your work is a bit too self-indulging.

[maxhgns]

I really think this is a mistake. People need to consider all of the factors that will impact their ability to be happy somewhere, because unhappy students do worse work and often end up leaving without a degree. 

 

If location isn't going to have a big impact on your ability to be happy somewhere, that's great. But telling a student that taking these factors into account suggests you're not actually serious… christ. 

 

 

I agree with you that location can have a big impact on general happiness, and that's very important and worth considering. Some of you have some measure of control over where you will live for the next five or more years, and that's a luxury you probably won't get ever again. 

 

I think there's a more charitable interpretation of that professor's remarks, however. The fact is that when it comes time to finding a job in academia, virtually none of us will be able to afford to discriminate geographically. That's a cold, hard fact that's best absorbed early, before having invested significant amounts of time, effort, and opportunity-cost into a PhD. If you're reasonably certain that you only want to work in a big city, or on the west coast, etc., then academia may not be for you. The job market is such that nobody can really afford to be picky. So it's important to go into the PhD aware of at least some of the realities of the academic job market, and aware that you should be cultivating a plan B. Geographic restrictions, depending on what they are, raise something of a red flag of which you should be aware, if only to save yourself future grief.

 

Having said that, I tend to think of the fact that we won't have control over the geography of our employment as a pretty good reason to allow geography to exert some influence in the choice of school one attends for the PhD. Since you'll probably never work in Chicago, New York, LA, Toronto, Montreal, etc. anyway, the next best thing might just be to spend five or more years there as a student.

[objectivityofcontradiction]

maxhgns charitable interpretation is the right one and the one my professor was no doubt trying to express. Basically the piece of advice was meant as a general point about geography and academia. We should all be prepared, if we are lucky enough to secure employment after all is said and done, to take a first job at 'Little Valley Hollow State College' in State X in a not so favorable region of the country, if that is all we've been given to start with. For those in disagreement, I will paste the quote directly from my professor's piece on attending graduate school in philosophy. Here it is:

 

'Does it matter where the graduate school is? I’ve emphasized often enough that the basic principle is to go to the best, most highly thought-of program that suits your interest you can get into. Geographical factors such as how high the surf is or the availability of good tex-mex cuisine simply shouldn't count. It’s a 4-6 year commitment that will determine the rest of your life, so if you refuse to go to a great program because it’s in a rural area and you’re a city gal, or because it’s in a big city and you’re a country boy, you’re not really serious about a career in philosophy, are you?' 

 

Further to his point, and from the same advice column: 

 

'Would you be happy teaching a heavy load for not much pay in a small college in North Dakota or Mississippi? Of course, we’re just talking about the odds here, and there are ways to move up the academic ladder, wherever you start (publish, publish, publish!), but you should go into grad school aware of the odds you’ve decided to play.'

 

Such are the basic ideas behind his advice to not let geography have too great of an influence on your decision. 

Edited March 16, 2014 by objectivityofcontradiction

[zblaesi]

To your second question: if I am offered a place off the wait-list at what has become my top choice (of my three wait-list spots), and if the visiting period has already passed, and, further, I am up against the April 15 deadline, I will accept the offer without a visit. FWIW, I would feel comfortable doing this, given that since my being wait-listed, I have been in fairly regular correspondence with my two main POIs at this institution, both of whom seem keen on my interests and are going to be available to work with me. I don't care about scouting the location, etc. I up and moved to Europe for my MA with two suitcases, and managed to find a flat and settle other logistical issues just fine. As one of my undergrad professors once told me, if you are not willing to take an offer somewhere because of the location and other such 'social life' issues, then it would seem that you are not actually serious about pursuing the PhD. 

 

Can you elaborate on your correspondence? Did you know the professors previously, or did you contact them for the first time after becoming wait-listed?

 

I'm wondering if I should start emailing some of the professors in my AOI's, but I'm worried that this could be deeply risky since I am not too familiar with their work (since my wait-listed schools were not top choices).

[zblaesi]

I really think this is a mistake. People need to consider all of the factors that will impact their ability to be happy somewhere, because unhappy students do worse work and often end up leaving without a degree. 

 

If location isn't going to have a big impact on your ability to be happy somewhere, that's great. But telling a student that taking these factors into account suggests you're not actually serious… christ. 

I've been wondering about this. For instance, I think UW-M fits my interests better than UT, but I feel like I'd be much happier in Austin than Madison. So, it'd be a really tough decision, and I don't really know how to go about it. Maybe you guys have some advice for me on that topic. In any case, I'm still sort of getting used to the idea of not living in NYC.

Edited March 16, 2014 by zblaesi

[objectivityofcontradiction]

Can you elaborate on your correspondence? Did you know the professors previously, or did you contact them for the first time after becoming wait-listed?

 

I'm wondering if I should start emailing some of the professors in my AOI's, but I'm worried that this could be deeply risky since I am not too familiar with their work (since my wait-listed schools were not top choices).

 

Generally speaking, I am a chatty, laid-back, gregarious type of person who has no fear of reaching out to any one in the field over email (the worst that can happen is they don't respond), or approaching professors at conferences to chat, etc. I am one of those who throughout the year leading up to my applying was constantly emailing people whose work I read and enjoyed. I'd run some ideas by them, express an interest in working with them at their school if I applied, etc. At this school in particular, I emailed both of these professors last fall informing them of my application to their department and my interest in their work, and I essentially quoted a paragraph from my SOP in each email, seeing if it reflected the sort of project(s) they had supervised in the past. I then got in touch with them again after the wait-list offers to touch base on the same sorts of things. 

Edited March 16, 2014 by objectivityofcontradiction

[zblaesi]

I see, I see. I recently met Strawson, even though I don't do metaphysics, so I'm going to send him an email. But I'm wondering how to broach emailing other professors, besides Shafer-Landau, whom I've already emailed before.

[Zukunftsmusik]

They might not get the best impression of you. At my school for example, they never move people up the list after visits as a rule, but sometimes people get moved down.

This probably won't happen, but just know that there are risks, and with someplace like Michigan you will be evaluated vs the best students in the world. If people get the wrong impression of you, it is POSSIBLE that it hurts you.

 

Hey Hopephily, I think I met you last week!

 

There's some truth to what you're saying, Vineyard, but I think your point only goes so far. I'm visiting two programs at which I've been waitlisted. They requested that I do so, will cover my travel expenses, and put me up with graduate students. I've also been told that I'm at the top of each waitlist (for my interests, anyway). Given the extremely low likelihood that they'll rescind an offer from an accepted student who makes a fool of himself, there's nowhere for me to go but down. So yes, it's possible my visit will hurt me. I strongly doubt, however, that the department invited me to visit their programs in order to evaluate me and find reasons to bump me down. On the contrary, they invited me because there's a good enough possibility that they'll make me an offer eventually and they want me to be comfortable turning down whatever offers I've had and investigated in case they do make me an offer. That's exactly what I need because I'm very comfortable with an option I have at the moment. I would hesitate to accept an offer to a program where I haven't met anyone, gotten a feel for the program, its milieu, etc. when I have an offer I'm already so happy with.

[PerpetualApplicant No More]

Hey Hopephily, I think I met you last week!

 

There's some truth to what you're saying, Vineyard, but I think your point only goes so far. I'm visiting two programs at which I've been waitlisted. They requested that I do so, will cover my travel expenses, and put me up with graduate students. I've also been told that I'm at the top of each waitlist (for my interests, anyway). Given the extremely low likelihood that they'll rescind an offer from an accepted student who makes a fool of himself, there's nowhere for me to go but down. So yes, it's possible my visit will hurt me. I strongly doubt, however, that the department invited me to visit their programs in order to evaluate me and find reasons to bump me down. On the contrary, they invited me because there's a good enough possibility that they'll make me an offer eventually and they want me to be comfortable turning down whatever offers I've had and investigated in case they do make me an offer. That's exactly what I need because I'm very comfortable with an option I have at the moment. I would hesitate to accept an offer to a program where I haven't met anyone, gotten a feel for the program, its milieu, etc. when I have an offer I'm already so happy with.

I think this is really spot on. I have a question in that I'm in a situation that is similar in many respects but distinct in one salient one, and I'd love to hear some thoughts.

 

I'm in a similar situation in that I have an option with which I am very comfortable at the moment (Riverside). And I have a school where I've been wait-listed that may or may not be a better fit (CUNY). There are a lot of considerations: CUNY is higher ranked, but I think my dissertation committee might be even a bit better at UCR etc etc. So, like you, "I would hesitate to accept an offer to a program where I haven't met anyone, gotten a feel for the program, its milieu, etc." Thus, I think it'd help me a lot to visit CUNY, in order to decide if staying on their wait-list is something I really want to do (viz, if I would take the spot if offered it).

 

Where my situation is dissimilar is that I haven't received an invitation from CUNY saying they'll foot the bill. Fortunately, the money itself isn't an issue in this particular case (I have family near NYC who would be thrilled to see me and help with the costs). But I do worry about some of the points raised by TheVineyard given that I haven't been invited as you have. On the one hand, I kind of don't care--I'm not going to make an impression, and if they hate me, so be it, I'll be happy at Riverside! On the other hanud, I don't want to shoot myself in the foot by simply asking to visit.

 

Any thoughts are appreciated.

Edited March 16, 2014 by perpetualapplicant

[wandajune]

I think if visiting is especially important to a prospective before making a decision, then

 

I think this is really spot on. I have a question in that I'm in a situation that is similar in many respects but distinct in one salient one, and I'd love to hear some thoughts.

 

I'm in a similar situation in that I have an option with which I am very comfortable at the moment (Riverside). And I have a school where I've been wait-listed that may or may not be a better fit (CUNY). There are a lot of considerations: CUNY is higher ranked, but I think my dissertation committee might be even a bit better at UCR etc etc. So, like you, "I would hesitate to accept an offer to a program where I haven't met anyone, gotten a feel for the program, its milieu, etc." Thus, I think it'd help me a lot to visit CUNY, in order to decide if staying on their wait-list is something I really want to do (viz, if I would take the spot if offered it).

 

Where my situation is dissimilar is that I haven't received an invitation from CUNY saying they'll foot the bill. Fortunately, the money itself isn't an issue in this particular case (I have family near NYC who would be thrilled to see me and help with the costs). But I do worry about some of the points raised by TheVineyard given that I haven't been invited as you have. On the one hand, I kind of don't care--I'm not going to make an impression, and if they hate me, so be it, I'll be happy at Riverside! On the other hanud, I don't want to shoot myself in the foot by simply asking to visit.

 

Any thoughts are appreciated.

 

I'm not waitlisted anywhere currently, but I don't think I would have strong reservations about asking to visit. I don't know that I would want to eventually end up at a program that responded in a hostile way to what is a reasonable request from a potential prospective. It seems like that kind of reaction might be a bad sign about the department culture, etc.

Edited March 16, 2014 by wandajune

[AquinasDuo]

I have declined University of Arizona and UCSD, and I just withdrew from University of Toronto's wait list. Good luck, all -- I sincerely hope this makes good things happen for others here.  

 

I likely missed it, but where is it you are going then?

[PerpetualApplicant No More]

I think if visiting is especially important to a prospective before making a decision, then

 

 

I'm not waitlisted anywhere currently, but I don't think I would have strong reservations about asking to visit. I don't know that I would want to eventually end up at a program that responded in a hostile way to what is a reasonable request from a potential prospective. It seems like that kind of reaction might be a bad sign about the department culture, etc.

Thanks for the feedback--I agree. Fortunately, they just responded and said they'd be happy to have me visit. That said, I stressed in my email that I wanted to visit to compare them to my other offer, not as some (misguided) attempt to boost my application. I'd recommend this tactic for anyone wait-listed considering asking about a visit (as long as it is actually true for you!).

Edited March 17, 2014 by perpetualapplicant

[DHumeDominates]

I removed myself from the Penn wait list tonight. Hope the move helps someone!

 

EDIT: Also from the Virginia and Wisconsin wait lists.

Edited March 17, 2014 by DHumeDominates

[humean_skeptic]

I removed myself from the Penn wait list tonight. Hope the move helps someone!

 

Arizona too?

[Zukunftsmusik]

Thanks for the feedback--I agree. Fortunately, they just responded and said they'd be happy to have me visit. That said, I stressed in my email that I wanted to visit to compare them to my other offer, not as some (misguided) attempt to boost my application. I'd recommend this tactic for anyone wait-listed considering asking about a visit (as long as it is actually true for you!).

 

Glad to hear that! I think that's a good qualification to make - that you just want to get a feel for the department in case an offer comes through - if you want to request a visit. I really feel the request is reasonable enough without it, but as a nervous applicant who'd be afraid of being judged for possibly trying to improve his/her lot on the waitlist, I wouldn't request a visit without it.

[MattDest]

I've been wondering about this. For instance, I think UW-M fits my interests better than UT, but I feel like I'd be much happier in Austin than Madison. So, it'd be a really tough decision, and I don't really know how to go about it. Maybe you guys have some advice for me on that topic. In any case, I'm still sort of getting used to the idea of not living in NYC.

 

Why do you think you would be happier in Austin than in Madison? Have you been to each city before? I love Madison. 

[MattDest]

Waitlisted (and removed) from University of Illinois-Chicago. 

[dgswaim]

Why do you think you would be happier in Austin than in Madison? Have you been to each city before? I love Madison. 

I've never been to Madison, but I hear good things. I've been in Austin for almost 5 years now, and Austin is great. Tons of fun.

[greencoloredpencil]

I've never been to Madison, but I hear good things. I've been in Austin for almost 5 years now, and Austin is great. Tons of fun.

 

I've only visited Austin once and it was brief (under a day). How is public transportation there? 

[philwomen2014]

whoops, wrong account, hang on 

Edited March 17, 2014 by philwomen2014

[Hypatience]

I likely missed it, but where is it you are going then?

 

I'm in at a top three and on four other wait lists in the 7th+ range that I'm waiting to hear about. I'm also in at Berkeley, which I'm taking seriously because of my interests. I'll probably pull myself off one of the wait lists soon, but the others are still live options and I'll be attending the visits. So although I don't know where exactly I'll be next year, I can at least say that it'll be somewhere I'm happy about. I have been very fortunate!

[Platonist]

I was offered fairly similar funding packages everywhere, especially when cost of living is taken into account.

 

Thanks for the info. wandajune. Congrats on your multiple offers of admission!

[Platonist]

I removed myself from the Penn wait list tonight. Hope the move helps someone!

 

EDIT: Also from the Virginia and Wisconsin wait lists.

 

Great. Let's get the wait lists start moving now! 

[DHumeDominates]

Just turned down Notre Dame. Fyi