"School is for Suckers"

[Mathematical]

Greetings,

I understand that this is not going to be a popular post, so I will try to keep it as tactful and brief as possible. I just ask that people who are willing to respond to it don't try to "read between the lines" and will respond simply to what I am asking. I also felt that this was the most appropriate place to post this. If it is off topic, I apologize. 

My Story:

I graduated high school (with a diploma) very early, took the SATs when I was twelve, and enrolled in university when I was fourteen years old. I came from a very underprivileged household and school system, so the idea of someone excelling so far academically at such a young age solidified in everyone's mind that college was the place for me. Inspired by the work of Descartes and Spinoza, I have always been very eager about learning. I ask that you would take me at my word when I communicate that I feel as if I am living the highest quality of life that I can when I am engaging knowledge.

 

When I went to college I found that nobody took it very seriously. Not even a legal adult, I was a much more disciplined "scholar" than many graduate students I met. Furthermore, I found all the classes very easy and continued with a 4.0 until I eventually became a full time student at seventeen years old. Discouraged after a single semester as a full time student, I did not return to university and joined the military.

After an honorable discharge from the Air Force, I returned to college as a full time student. I finished two majors and a minor in under four years, graduating with honors and research. As an undergraduate, I was given special permission by department heads to tutor graduate level math classes (even though my majors were not in mathematics). Once again, I found the culture to be completely nonacademic and juvenile. My experience was that most students saw college as an extended adolescence and retained some false "student-teacher" dualism that held over from high school. Students complained about going to class, wouldn't do readings, wouldn't understand the little that they sometimes read, and generally wouldn't try. Please, know that it is not the case that I have some kind of condescending attitude because people "just can't keep up with me." Rather, I was very frustrated that most people weren't actually interested in fulfilling the academic roles that they would later puff out their chests and embrace on graduation day. I felt like I was at a band camp, not a college. Similarly, many professors would inform me about how excited they were to have a such a serious student while I was conducting research, yet would simultaneously completely lower all of their standards in order to receive high evaluations from students – ergo retaining higher odds as scoring the tenure positions they were all at each other's throats for. I have had several classes where everyone got an A with no tests and no assigned readings. I have caught several professors giving me incorrect grades out of miscalculation. All of these were changed after I contacted department heads, but not without getting an angry cursing phone call from one English professor about how "Ya didn't have to call my F%*king boss, @!%hole." Very professional environment.  I have also seen students who clearly do not understand basic material being passed because they retook the course several times and were supposedly trying hard. Moreover, I have caught several professors teaching material incorrectly or not reading the assignments they were teaching on.

 

I never found school particularly challenging and, honestly, I feel that I have learned much more reading on my own in the past few months after graduation than anything school has had to offer me. Having someone shoot mortars at my FOB was very stressful. Memorizing math formulas for a test that I've had all semester to memorize is not stressful. Getting phone calls about close friends from my unit getting killed in Iraq while I was college is something that was stressful for me. Reading a book and generating maybe one or two original thoughts about it for finals week is not stressful.

I met some serious students and befriended many professors, but I found that the academic environment was still anything but. I surprised my professors and peers by refusing to walk at graduation and leaving the departments on no uncertain terms. I concluded to them that my "college experience" was an exaggerated, false rational category where high school kids show up and pay for a degree. I was not special, and got absolutely nothing out of my time at university besides what I did myself. Standards are demonstrably getting lower and lower, and my experience dictates that most people affiliated with university are responsible for this condition. Firstly, I feel that most (but not all) college students are part of the problem for having no real desire to be at university in the first place (beside perhaps basic utility) and therefore lowering standards. Secondly, I feel that professors were responsible for simply paying lip service regarding their discontent regarding lowered standards yet sitting on their hands while the situations get progressively worse. Finally, I hold administrations responsible for seeking expanding profits instead of meeting the educational values they claim to hold.

And to top it all off, my degree doesn't even say my majors or minor on it.  

Many of my professors are pleading that I apply for graduate school, with these great, high expectations of how wonderful the experience will be. Indeed, several of them are offering to pay for all my exams and applications if I simply do it. However, I am still very skeptical that it is any different from the undergraduate experience and, as I meet more graduate students through dating or other social mediums, I find the same myopic and undisciplined demeanor. I keep meeting the archetypal middle class social climber who had the luxury of college handed to them and, happy to embrace the identity of a scholar, is more in love with the pride of believing they are part of some elite academic smart people club than possessing a love for learning. With fond, self-congratulatory memories, they often boast about the super stressful test they "worked" so hard to pass or how the experience was so hard that they're on anxiety medication now. After browsing this site for a few weeks, I am not certain that I have seen anything that convinces me any differently.

Please note, these are not sweeping generalizations of everybody in school, because I hold no illusions that I can speak for people I have not met. I will unabashedly communicate that this has been my experience. Also, so there's no confusion, I have so far gone to four different universities. Three were state schools and one was private. My parents are deceased and I am therefore receiving no financial support from them, nor did I receive any support from them when I began college full time after the military (life insurance was spent to cover their stuff years prior). I worked 35 hours a week and took out loans after the G.I. Bill was cut in 2011. I currently work an entry level position and make a little more than minimum wage (no degree required).

 

My Question:

Can someone give me a no nonsense answer if graduate school is worth going to? Is it really different? Moreover, I keep meeting people with PhDs and Master's degrees working at Starbucks or other entry level positions. I did some basic research and I get mixed answers about job placement. A lot of things I have read seem to indicate that, if I were to get a PhD or Master's Degree, standards are going to be compromised so much by the time I finish that it will be just as hard to find a job.

Thank you for taking the time to read this. I'd be curious to hear some input.

PS - I understand the title is inflammatory, but the reason I chose it is because it's one of the last things my grandfather told me before he passed away.

Edited March 2, 2014 by Mathematical

[seeingeyeduck]

It sounds like the answer is no. If you need anyone else to convince you to go then it probably isn't for you.

I would also point out that it is a mistake to expect everyone in a school to have the same level of dedication as you. In a world where a BA is expected for many jobs, many simply want those jobs, not the knowledge that comes with the education. College has not met your hopes and expectations, but maybe you could also adjust your expectations. Sometimes in the messy real world the stated purpose for things is not the reason why people do them. Yes, the stated goal of college is to be a place of learning and intellectual advancement but in reality, it serves as a stepping stone to a job.

However, maybe you need to be at a different kind of school. There will be lazy students anywhere, but in my experience at a top school there are many people who are curious and like intellectual debate or puzzles. Perhaps you needed to be at a higher caliber school in order to challenge yourself. You mentioned that there were a few people you met who you thought were good - your strategy should be to find people like that and surround yourself with them instead of taking so much notice of others who you don't admire. The numbers are such that you can always expect people to be less like you than like you, so your task will always have to be to find the ones you can feel compatible with among the ones who aren't.

Keep in mind that you are precocious in some ways so others will seem to be lagging, but just remember that at some point they will also learn to be mature. If they don't, why does that affect you at all? It doesn't prevent you from pursuing your goals or your knowledge. If you want to keep learning school is the best place to do it. You are even more unlikely to find intellectual peers in random jobs than in the academy, though of course that isn't impossible as there are smart people everywhere. If you don't like what you see in school, I'd hate to say it but the real world could be worse - office politics, answering to bosses who may not be as qualified as you, doing stuff that you don't want to do.

It sounds like you are booksmart but that there are some social aspects that you don't quite have a handle on yet. Consider that what people chat about may not be a true reflection of what motivates them. I sympathize with you but in my own experience I know that I am deeply attached to my field and my ideas but that doesn't mean I say those things on a daily basis to others. Unfortunately passion can come off as too intense in everyday conversation, where some people do complain and vent, but that is just an emotional coping mechanism to deal with stress, not a perfect reflection of their level of dedication or their intellectual capacity. I've learned to not judge people by how they act in conversation. They can still be capable of a lot.

Sometimes people are careful about what they say because they don't want to be perceived as a know it all. There is a strain of anti-intellectualism in our culture (for some reason showing your smarts is often construed as elitism?!). If you really are smarter than most, then just roll with it and be glad. You can't expect everyone to conform to your standards. Not everyone is like you and they needn't be to be happy or successful on their own terms.

If you've been disappointed where you've been, take it as a sign that you need to aim higher.

Edited March 2, 2014 by seeingeyeduck

[m-ttl]

"myopic and undisciplined" 

 

... do you mean misanthropic? unless you really have something against people who wear glasses. 

 

 

I find the same myopic and undisciplined demeanor. I keep meeting the archetypal middle class social climber who had the luxury of college handed to them and, happy to embrace the identity of a scholar, is more in love with the pride of believing they are part of some elite academic smart people club than possessing a love for learning. With fond, self-congratulatory memories, they often boast about the super stressful test they "worked" so hard to pass or how the experience was so hard that they're on anxiety medication now. After browsing this site for a few weeks, I am not certain that I have seen anything that convinces me any differently.

 

The rest of this was so achingly narcissistic and offensive that I don't care to address the rest of it. "Only I have the proper pure love of academics, no one else has possibly ever worked for what they've earned, I am the only one ever to have struggled in life."

 

Don't bother going. 

[Mathematical]

Latte,

The rest of this was so achingly narcissistic and offensive that I don't care to address the rest of it. "Only I have the proper pure love of academics, no one else has possibly ever worked for what they've earned, I am the only one everto have struggled in life."

 

Don't bother going. 

You clearly didn't read anything I wrote. Also, by strawmanning my point and not understanding my use of the word "myopic," you're only further proving my point. 

[Mathematical]

SeeingEyeDuck, 

Thank you for the well thought out response. Although I do find a little bit of what you wrote to be contentious. 

 

 

However, maybe you need to be at a different kind of school. There will be lazy students anywhere, but in my experience at a top school there are many people who are curious and like intellectual debate or puzzles. Perhaps you needed to be at a higher caliber school in order to challenge yourself.

 

If I had this luxury, I would have done so in the first place. I have friends who are in some of the Ivy League schools and they claim it is the same, but obviously this is only anecdotal evidence. As aforementioned, I grew up very poor and most of the "top level schools" I've have seen I would not be able to afford. 

 

Keep in mind that you are precocious in some ways so others will seem to be lagging, but just remember that at some point they will also learn to be mature. If they don't, why does that affect you at all?It doesn't prevent you from pursuing your goals or your knowledge.

 

One of my bigger points is that I am affected because the university standards seem to be "low-balled." If it's atypical to have a desire be in class, much less read the material, the standards consequently plummet. 


 

If you don't like what you see in school, I'd hate to say it but the real world could be worse - office politics, answering to bosses who may not be as qualified as you, doing stuff that you don't want to do. 

 

I did mention that I was working full time while in school and was in the military beforehand. I have plenty of real world experience, and this was one of my issues with the extended adolescence of college. 

 

It sounds like you are booksmart but that there are some social aspects that you don't quite have a handle on yet.

 

Please don't make me out to be some kind of Aspie. As I mentioned, I have an active social life and date frequently. My social skills aren't lacking. My point was simply that the academic environment wasn't very academic. 
 

If you've been disappointed where you've been, take it as a sign that you need to aim higher.

 

And at this point, that seems like not rotting in graduate school. Thanks for the advice. 

[vityaz]

Hahahah, this thread is even better than the last one! 

[TakeruK]

My honest reaction to what you wrote is that you do sound incredibly arrogant. But I will take your word and give you the benefit of the doubt that you do not actually mean to be offensive and you just don't know how else to honestly express your feelings. So I'll give a few opinions and answer your question about grad school.

 

First, some opinions:

 

1. I think you have a misguided view of what the academic world is really like. If you want to be in an environment where you are surrounded by people who are 100% devoted to academics and basically embody the idea of a "scholar" in Newton's time, then grad school and academia isn't where you want to go. Remember that in those days, the scholars were all independently wealthy and basically pursued "natural philosophy" as their passion and devotion. In the modern day, academics come from all sorts of backgrounds and have all sorts of other desires and passions. To me, doing research on planetary science is really no different nor any more valuable than any other job in this world. I think it is misguided to try to cling onto the ideals of the Royal Society type scholars because back then, science is really only accessible if you were white and wealthy.

 

2. As others said above, I think you also misjudged what University/college will be like. Universities are not just places where people go to become serious scholars. Although many schools keep up the traditions of "joining the ranks of scholars/graduates" once you earn a degree (that's basically how my undergrad phrased the whole graduation process), I think this is more tradition than reality. You don't have to be a serious scholar (or any scholar at all) to earn a Bachelor's degree. The purpose of a 4 year Bachelor's degree is to give graduates a basic understanding of some particular major so that the graduate can then choose to pursue further studies (e.g. MA, MSc, PhD) in that field, or pursue further practical work in that field (especially engineering type degrees) or just provide a well rounded education. 

 

3. So, I don't understand what you mean by "standards" are dropping. They should not be very high because the point of a Bachelor's degree is not to "weed out" certain types of people/students. For most degrees, you just need to maintain something like a C average to avoid academic probation and getting kicked out. I don't think the whole process of getting a degree should be much different from something like First Aid certification or any other certification, except that the 4 year degree is a longer program with lots of breadth and depth requirements, instead of something you might cover in a weekend. I think this "basic utility" that you mention is a perfectly valid reason for attending college and that since this is what the majority of people want to get out of college, the schools should shift and adjust their priorities to meet this need. 

 

Basically, universities exist nowadays to provide people with some kind of basic training for their life, whether it's to pursue more school, provide skills for a certain job, or just give people more time to develop into mature adults. I think if you expect anything else, you will be disappointed.

 

To answer your questions about grad school:

 

Will it be any different than your undergrad experience?

 

Yes and no. Yes, it will be slightly different because almost every single graduate student has made the choice to go to grad school and you have to do a bunch of work to get in. Also, not every university/college is the same so just because you are going to a different place and meeting colleagues who themselves came from different undergrad schools will put you in a very different environment. I often notice that there is a very stark difference between the graduate and undergraduate student cultures even at the same school, and even when both groups work/live in the same buildings.

 

At most graduate schools, you will find that most students are serious about pursuing their major as a career. They will generally be professional and self-motivated. For example, they are all probably people who did more than the minimum work in their undergraduate classes, and to varying levels, they are going to be actually interested in the scholarly research of their field. 

 

However, if you are still expecting the "Royal Society ideal" that I described above (and that sounds like you describe in your first post), then you will be disappointed and probably find that graduate school is "the same" as your undergraduate experience. My friends and I complain about our classes all the time. Not that we actually hate them (after all, if we did, we would quit and find better things to do with our life) but because it's human to not like tough things. I think if our lives got easier, we would still find something to complain about.

 

But also graduate students all have individual goals and priorities. I might be mostly interested in X so I would complain that classes in Y is taking away from time to pursue my interest/work in X. Even though I know a well rounded foundation that includes Y is beneficial for me (e.g. I complain about the taste of medicine when I am sick even though I know it makes me feel better!). At any particular moment, I might curse that I am working on finishing a paper on a weekend when I would rather be spending time with my friends or family. Or, after working all day, I might prefer to just go home and watch TV the rest of the night instead of read a paper that my supervisor just sent me. If you consider these actions as "un-scholarly" or beneath you, then you will not enjoy your colleagues at grad school. 

 

The academic workplace is really just like any other workplace. Maybe our department's main output is published papers and grant applications instead of building cars or making coffee, or packing Amazon orders, but academia isn't and shouldn't be some sacred or special place that is different from the rest of the world. During college, I worked in a factory like job in the summer and I witnessed adult men and women teasing and bullying each other the way you might see children or teenagers do at a schoolyard. Before that, I had thought that adult workplaces were much more mature than that but in the end, I think that is just what humans are. Academic workplaces will be no different....maybe less noticeable or disguised with a sense of academia, but such behaviours will still occur (e.g. bullying or posturing might happen in the form of attacking seminar speakers with inflammatory questions, or disguising one's insult/self-promoting comment as a "question"). 

 

As for classes at the graduate level, you can probably expect them to be more demanding than undergraduate classes because they will expect more self learning and deeper thinking, but the evaluation and grading is generally a lot easier, at least in research heavy programs. Profs don't want you to spend too many hours working on classes when they are paying you to do research. So, while an A in undergrad tends to mean "you went beyond the minimal requirements", an A in grad school is usually "you did what we expected" and a B is "you met the minimums". When you apply for jobs after the PhD, very few people will look at your coursework, so coursework tends to be a very low priority for both students and faculty.

 

Finally, when you are considering whether or not to do a PhD/go to graduate school, remember that pretty much every academic is a human first, and then an academic second. If you expect anything else from your colleagues and superiors, you will be disappointed. But I am not sure what you are actually expecting from your peers in academia though? Let me describe a typical day at the office for me (by just 'averaging out' all the days of grad school I've had in the last 4-ish years):

 

9am -- arrive at work, check emails, address any problems that might have come up from anything I might have left running on my computer last night.

10am -- get some coffee, stop by my friends' offices, chat to them about how their weekend went, gossip about other people we might know or celebrities or politicians etc. then go back to work

11am -- go to class and take notes

Noon -- round up colleagues to go have lunch; discuss variety of topics during lunch: sports, current events, upcoming academic stuff (conferences), upcoming departmental events, share recipes, discuss TV shows, make social plans for later that evening/week/weekend, etc

1pm -- get back from lunch, continue working

2pm -- maybe take a break to get more coffee, go on Facebook, chat with others

4pm -- go to a seminar presented by a guest lecturer, or meet with a professor or a visitor etc.

5pm -- go home (make sure whatever needs to run overnight is started first)

evening -- probably not working, unless I have a lot of assignments to do or a deadline coming up

 

I don't know what you really mean when you say an "academic" environment. To me, the grad school environment is not necessarily one where everyone behaves "academically" (when I say this, I again think of Royal-Society-like people, but I don't know what you mean). Instead, I think the grad school environment is one where all sorts of different and diverse people with different and diverse backgrounds/goals/opinions/hobbies/etc. work together on a common academic goal. I don't know if this really answers your question though, but I hope it did!

[spunky]

I predict this thread will become a goldmine of entertainment. 

 

And I don't really think the OP is meant to be taken seriously. 

[gr8pumpkin]

OP, you say "Aspie" like it's a bad thing, which I'm sure will endear you to disability activists on this site (like, say, me).  But, then, Asperger's Syndrome is no longer recognized by DSM5, which I'm sure you knew, since you're so erudite.

[gr8pumpkin]

I predict this thread will become a goldmine of entertainment. 

 

And I don't really think the OP is meant to be taken seriously. 

 

Oh, I don't know, ever heard of Eliezer Yudkowsky?  He projects a persona very much not unlike the OP and a lot of people take him seriously.

[spectastic]

when I wake up tomorrow. I expect this thread to be at least 3 pages long.

[seeingeyeduck]

If I had this luxury, I would have done so in the first place. I have friends who are in some of the Ivy League schools and they claim it is the same, but obviously this is only anecdotal evidence. As aforementioned, I grew up very poor and most of the "top level schools" I've have seen I would not be able to afford.

 

One of my bigger points is that I am affected because the university standards seem to be "low-balled." If it's atypical to have a desire be in class, much less read the material, the standards consequently plummet.

 

Please don't make me out to be some kind of Aspie. As I mentioned, I have an active social life and date frequently. My social skills aren't lacking. My point was simply that the academic environment wasn't very academic. 

 

And at this point, that seems like not rotting in graduate school. Thanks for the advice. 

 

I know that at some point both Harvard and Stanford had programs where those who had a household income of <$100k had their tuition completely waived. I don't know if that's still the case, but I wouldn't say that the prestigious schools are out of reach for those without wealth.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by standards are low-balled. Where I was at, yes, students complained, but if they didn't do the reading or didn't show up to class then mostly their grades suffered. I did not see the faculty or school make any effort to lower standards just so it would be easier. But at any rate, I don't understand why it's a problem - you could just hang with the people who you think are smart and do well in all your classes. I don't see what else you could expect.

 

The reason you come off as socially impaired is because you say things like "rotting in grad school," as if it's beneath you, and you are saying it on a grad school forum, so what do you expect people to say? I gave you the benefit of the doubt, but I guess the other explanation is just that you are a rude person.

 

It seems like you are looking for reasons to not go to grad school, and you seem to hate the academic environment so I have no idea why you would even consider going. If you're happy in the real world and can do well, why not just do that?

[AwesomeBird]

"I feel as if I am living the highest quality of life that I can when I am engaging knowledge"

 

 

 

Sounds like you have your answer right there...

 

I want to go school for acting. Have you any idea how many people (fellow actors) think that's an absurd, nonsensical concept? I don't want to get my MFA in acting so I can make more money or get more work. Maybe I will end up wokring in Starbucks, but I want to go back to school because there have been two places in my life where I have felt comfortable, in my element, at home... 1) in a place of performance, whether it be on stage, in front of a camera, etc., and 2) in a classroom.

 

Stop worrying about what everyone else is doing. From what you have told us, you are a brilliant mind who thrives in a place of learning; why go against your nature? Go back to school... Furthermore, we need you. Keep going.

[spunky]

Oh, I don't know, ever heard of Eliezer Yudkowsky?  He projects a persona very much not unlike the OP and a lot of people take him seriously.

 

oh, god, i hope this is not the case. i mean, how can anyone not see through the BS of the OP's post!? attention-grabbing headline followed by a long, long rant of his/her perceived superiority and unnecessary self-justifications? that makes him/her a rather unoriginal troll. 

[the_sheath]

If you need other people around you to be as dedicated as you are for you to pursue your intellectual interests, you may not be as "dedicated" as you think. Honestly, so what if standards are low? You'd just transcend them anyway.

Edited March 3, 2014 by the_sheath

[Mathematical]

To those of you who responded meaningfully to my posts, I seriously thank you for your advice and input. I concede that I was gullible for buying into the "royal society" image and community of scholars. My point is that many of my undergraduate professors propose(d) that same image of graduate school, and I see it's clearly not the case. And yes, my post is very serious. 

To those of you who have simply made strawman arguments or just accuse me of being profoundly narcissistic, please note that I have not boasted or condescended to anybody. All I was claiming is that I found that college wasn't challenging to me, I didn't think the environment was super academic, and, after serving in active duty military, came back and found that it was still just as easy. If I'm going to be accused of boasting or I wanted to be the arrogant jerk I have been made out to be, I would have easily boasted about the myriad of academic publications I managed to get while most of my peers were struggling with algebra in middle school. 

The responses have been eye opening and I am now more convinced than ever that graduate school is the same game. It was very naive on my part for buying into the hype, and I'm seriously very thankful for the honest  replies.I don't think my grandfather was absolutely right, because a lot of you guys aren't what I would consider "suckers" but don't have a romanticized image of graduate school. However, I will not be going. It doesn't seem like it's for me. I will also not be checking this website or this thread anymore.

Seriously, the guys and gals with honest replies have been very helpful. 

[juilletmercredi]

I find quite a few things in the original post difficult to believe, but I'm going to assume that the rare mathematical prodigy has found their way onto this board and treat your question seriously.

Graduate school, quite frankly, is a means to an end.  In general people go to get a graduate degree because they want to do something specific.  People get a PhD because they want to become researchers and/or professors.  People get an MBA because they want to go into business.  People get an MA in statistics because they want to be professional statisticians and maybe get a PhD later.  So on and so forth.  Sure, you can get personal intellectual enrichment through the process of studying for an advanced degree, but I don't think that in and of itself is a good reason to go unless you're independently wealthy and don't mind sacrificing the 6-10 years of potential income and retirement savings you could be making.  (I could maybe see doing an academic master's degree for that personal enrichment aspect - maybe, if it were totally free and I had a burning desire to be a full-time student - but most of them are not totally free, so I see no purpose in that either).

So, to answer the question of whether it's worth it to you, ask yourself - do you want to be in a profession that requires a PhD?  (For most fields, that means that you want to be a professor at some kind of tertiary educational institution.  In some fields, it means you want to be a researcher at an institute that pays people to do research.)  If you don't, then there's no need to go.  *shrug*

 

As usual I agree with TakeruK's entire post; in particular I agree with the comments that it's unclear what you're expecting the academic environment to be like.  Graduate students will complain about going to class.  Employees will complain about going to work.  Professors will complain about many aspects of their jobs.  One of the things we do as humans is complain, and that is regardless of what kind of work we do.  And I'm just going to be completely frank, as you were: If you are that one person in the department who always wants to talk about academic work, thinks nobody should complain about work and class and are a general all-around keener, nobody will like you.  Even the most dedicated person I know from my program - who just got hired to work in the #2 ranked department in my field, at a fantastic R1, and had 8 publications by the time she graduated - talks about social life and how much she hates coursework and was just a generally fun person to be around.

 

One more thing: You may not want to be a professor at all (generally the job goal for people gunning for PhDs) if these are the attitudes you have about students.  The vast majority of educational institutions in the U.S. are not research universities but teaching institutions focused on educating undergraduates, and most U.S institutions admit more than 50% of their applicants.  That means that MOST PhD-level professors will be teaching 3-4 classes a semester at universities and colleges where the students are not super competitive geniuses and may not want to be there - or worse, are not well-prepared to be there because of failing K-12 education in this country.  If you think you are annoyed by those students now, wait until you have to teach a class of 20-40 of them.  And if your contempt for your students comes through (and despite what you say, you do sound very condescending), they will make things difficult for you and you won't enjoy your career.

[m-ttl]

when I wake up tomorrow. I expect this thread to be at least 3 pages long.

 

God I hope so. This is great free entertainment, but I can't be assed to pretend like it's in any serious enough of a discussion to merit paragraphs worth of reply. 

Edited March 3, 2014 by m-ttl

[TakeruK]

Mathematical, good luck with whatever you choose to do in the future!

 

But in case you do come back to read this thread, consider what juilletmercredi said too! In particular, when you say (added emphasis):

 

To those of you who have simply made strawman arguments or just accuse me of being profoundly narcissistic, please note that I have not boasted or condescended to anybody. All I was claiming is that I found that college wasn't challenging to me, I didn't think the environment was super academic, and, after serving in active duty military, came back and found that it was still just as easy. If I'm going to be accused of boasting or I wanted to be the arrogant jerk I have been made out to be, I would have easily boasted about the myriad of academic publications I managed to get while most of my peers were struggling with algebra in middle school. 

 

Just FYI: when a group of people found something challenging, and then someone shows up and says "Well, that was easy! I can't believe that was supposed to be challenging!", that person is a jerk even if they didn't mean it. I think a reasonable person should know that completing college is indeed considered an accomplishment by society and in fact, many people struggle through some or all of college. You don't have to boast about yourself and your accomplishments to be a jerk--it's entirely possible to be a jerk by saying something like that bolded statement above. I think it's the impact of a person's words that matter, not the intention. And I think someone making a statement like "college didn't challenge me at all!" and expect people to not think they are being arrogant is either 1) out of touch with society/social norms or 2) subtly trying to insult/put down others. 

[Plissken]

Assuming the original post and poster are indeed genuine:

 

Mathematical, you are the type of person I'd love to meet and befriend. I have never been in the military, and I have never feared for my life, and I have never fought for my life, and I have never lost friends or comrades to violent and unfortunate circumstances. But I frequently think about what stress means. My relatively tame life experience has led me to the conclusions that stress is not disagreeing with your advisor, or your boss, stress is not an exam or a grade (because what is a grade but a number on a piece of paper?). Stress is when you don't know where your next meal is coming from, not knowing whether your loved ones will survive the night, not knowing whether you or you friends will wake up in the morning. Sometimes, I think these thoughts are luxuries resulting from a privileged upbringing--a way of justifying my place and worldview in a world where so many have suffered and/or suffer yet I haven't. I don't deny that. But I digress.

 

I keep meeting the archetypal middle class social climber who had the luxury of college handed to them and, happy to embrace the identity of a scholar, is more in love with the pride of believing they are part of some elite academic smart people club than possessing a love for learning. With fond, self-congratulatory memories, they often boast about the super stressful test they "worked" so hard to pass or how the experience was so hard that they're on anxiety medication now.

 

You will continue to find these people in graduate school. In my (admittedly limited) experience: academia is a big bubble, disconnected in many ways from the real world. This doesn't mean nobody in academia is in touch with reality. You will always find people, in any arena--including academia--who have a solid grasp on reality, a good perspective. But like any other area, most of them will be caught up in exactly what you describe. I don't think you can ever escape it in first-world, civilian life.

 

Ultimately, I don't think you should base your decision to attend graduate school or not on something like this. You will inevitably be surrounded by people fitting your description, no matter what you choose to do. If you think you can rise above it, ignore it, or perhaps even benefit from it and encourage the others around you to see things the way you do, then I think you should go for it. Consider the long term, not the short-term. If graduate school will help you achieve your long-term goals, then don't worry about the people and attitudes along the way; at worst, you will encounter exactly what you have described. At best, you will meet the exceptions while also making progress toward your overarching professional and academic goals, and making connections that could prove important in your future.

Edited March 3, 2014 by Plissken

[spunky]

just look at this line and tell me how it doesn't scream I-love-to-BS:

 

Many of my professors are pleading that I apply for graduate school, with these great, high expectations of how wonderful the experience will be. Indeed, several of them are offering to pay for all my exams and applications if I simply do it. 

 

OMG! professors plead you? Do they also throw themselves at your feet begging for the privilege of taking you in as a student? 

 

Yeah rite. 

 

And, as a side note, it is interesting to see that if one just skips over all your oh-i'm-the-best-no-one-can-compare-with-me BS, you actually make a couple of important points about the lack of commitment in higher education.

Edited March 3, 2014 by spunky

[spectastic]

God I hope so. This is great free entertainment, but I can't be assed to pretend like it's in any serious enough of a discussion to merit paragraphs worth of reply. 

entertainment? I'm not going to waste my time reading all this shit. ignorance is bliss.