Friends?

[Guest Gnome Chomsky]

Should have picked porn.

Same problem. 

[Scarf in the wind]

I keep my life segregated. I don't want to have philosophical conversations when I am not engaged in something in my field. I actually don't even like intense conversations or debates. I don't consider myself that smart, nor do I expect other people to view me that way. Yeah I can talk circles around any average person about political parties and Latin American politics, but that hardly ever comes up, and I like it that way. 

 

My girlfriend is not an intellectual, neither are her family members. No one in my immediate family even graduated high school. The vast majority of my friends either didn't attend university or graduate school. 

 

In my opinion, friends are always disposable. This becomes more pronounced as you age and get involved in whatever pursuits you follow. Friends are easy to find. Friends exist for one reason, to meet a demand or need (of course, this is usually both ways). You have something in common? You share it. I have foodie friends where I go out to dinner or cook with. I have friends who like to play a certain sport that I do. This to me, is what friends are for. Other people rely on friends more for a emotional support network. I don't, I try to take care of my own shit. They are like a commodity, they can be traded or discarded if they are not worth as much to you anymore. 

 

This may make me an 'disloyal' friend, but I am honest about it. And quite frankly, I move around a lot so it's not like it's even plausible for me to keep the one's I collect in a certain place.

 

So I guess what I am trying to say is that friends aren't that important to me. They serve a temporary purpose, a fairly important one, but nonetheless disposable. But I think I learnt a lesson with regard to friends that makes it easier for me to relate to them. I don't have to like every component of someone to be friends with them. Everyone has faults and things that unattractive, as I do, but instead of trying to overcome these things I just look for some common ground and exploit that into a two-way relationship. If there isn't anything, then whatever. 

 

I wish I were more like you, but instead I am the type of person who ingratiates himelf to others hoping they would become a friend, and I hate that about myself. Very lonely.

Edited May 20, 2014 by Scarf in the wind

[PlantinMoretus]

 

 I don't know how to put this without sounding pretentious, so forgive me if this comes across as arrogant, but I just find that once you get to a certain intellectual level or way of thinking, talking to lay people is extremely difficult.

 

I can relate to this, although it's not so much about "lay people" as just people who are not on the same intellectual level. 

E.g. I listened to a old lecture by Aldous Huxley over the weekend.  It wasn't for school or anything, I'm just interested in Huxley.  But I literally do not know a single person (IRL) with whom I could discuss Huxley.  Most people in my circle of acquaintance don't know who he was, let alone how his work has any relevance to today's society.  So, no Huxley chats for me then.  But if I wanted to talk about shopping or the Kimye wedding, I'd be all set.  When it's like that all the time, it gets pretty lonely.  Downplaying your true interests and faking an interest in topics like shopping, Kimye, Duck Dynasty or whatever is equally lonely.  So it's tough and I don't know what the solution is.

[Eigen]

Wow, that sucks. 

 

I think about 80% of my friends and acquaintances would be down for both listening to Huxley's lecture and talking about it. 

 

Have you tried meeting grad students/staff/faculty in other programs to hang out with?

[PlantinMoretus]

See, I know those people exist, but I never meet them!

 

I work full-time and am doing my master's part-time so I literally have no time for seeking out new friends.  Maybe when I've finished the degree.

 

Anyway, it was this lecture, in case you're interested.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RX-iUfPJ9I

[Eigen]

One thing I did that helped a lot when it came to meeting new, interesting people was start an interdisciplinary graduate colloquium series- two talks from different areas, and dinner/socialization.

[CageFree]

I think my situation is different from a lot of people's because I did not grow up in the US, so I did not form any close social circle growing up. I don't have a circle of "friends from back in the day." That, and I didn't have a lot of friends where I did grow up.

 

Moving away for grad school destroyed my previous social circle, but realistically I only miss maybe 5 or 6 of those people.

 

I have two categories of friends: transient friends, and real friends. My real friends are relatively few, and I've "collected" them over the years... I seem to have one or two good ones from every major life transition (college, jobs, etc.). Those are people I might not see in person for years but we stay in touch and when one of us is in town, we hang out, give each other a big hug, get caught up, and what not, But they are also the people that, if I had a major crisis, would drop what they are doing in a heartbeat for me, and I for them. They are like family. Those friends are scattered all over the country right now.... and one lives in the town I grew up in, half-way around the world. I went back there this last summer and stayed at her place for a week, staying up late at night catching up on two decades of "stuff." If she ever wanted to come up here, she'd have a bed as well. 

 

Then there's the people who you befriend, do stuff with, etc., but whose friendships won't survive a move or a change in situation.That includes coworkers you get close to, for example. That also includes most other grad students. After we each finish our degrees, many of us will go our separate ways, though some people will be part of my 'tribe' so to speak, and so it goes.

[themmases]

I think not being able to relate to other people might have more to do with going through a consuming change in your life and trying to assimilate to academic culture. Being a grad student who can't stop talking about your field is a lot like being a non-academic who can't find anything to talk about other than your job, or your kid. I think it's OK to be that person for a while-- it's incredibly common-- as long as you bring some self-awareness to it and work on having other things to talk to people about (for your own mental health, too).

 

That can be through finding some outside hobbies, or through recognizing that grad school is a job and people with jobs actually have a lot in common. You can also just focus on getting to know people. I used to believe people expected me to always contribute some original reaction or thought to whatever they were saying, which of course made small talk and getting to know people difficult. But actually you don't always have to relate to people or add something special to every conversation-- people will also just appreciate your sincere interest and you'll gain perspective by knowing them.

[spectastic]

I know the feeling. I deal with operators everyday. they're mostly easy going, but I'm also constantly surrounded by stupid talk. Not all of these guys are very smart, I mean shit, most of them spend the majority of their paid hours sitting around. I have to deal with it, otherwise they'll think I'm antisocial or something. Friend of mine bailed out of a PhD with a Master's (great engineer).. said he'd rather feel smart being surrounded by idiots than feeling like an underachiever in a brilliant research group.

[spunky]

i think it's just fair to say one of the main reasons of why we gravitate towards academia is because we appreciate the intellectual stimulation and we can only take so much of going a day talking about normal, 'everyday' kind of stuff without going insane.

 

heck, the very fact that we're spending time analyzing the intellectual exchanges of our social interactions already says something about the kind of people we are and the kind of people we look around to get together with. we can't help but be insightful and we like to talk about our insights to other people (and listen to theirs as well). but the world outside doesn't care much for insight. 

[QASP]

i think it's just fair to say one of the main reasons of why we gravitate towards academia is because we appreciate the intellectual stimulation and we can only take so much of going a day talking about normal, 'everyday' kind of stuff without going insane.

 

heck, the very fact that we're spending time analyzing the intellectual exchanges of our social interactions already says something about the kind of people we are and the kind of people we look around to get together with. we can't help but be insightful and we like to talk about our insights to other people (and listen to theirs as well). but the world outside doesn't care much for insight. 

 

I don't know, I think it's pretty clear some people are saying we can only take so much normal everyday academic 'stimulation' and instead we seek out interaction with people who don't have to limit themselves to topics that would be covered by the BBC and/or The Chronicle of Higher Education.

 

A lot of my "normal" friends (I call them normies) analyze their friendships and the type of people they hang around with, and why. I get a lot of insight out of my friends who dropped out of college, just as much as I do from others who are in or went to grad school. I find a lot of people within academia denigrate mainstream culture ("the outside world" apparently) without seeking to understand it, and make odd blanket statements that don't hold up to my experience (like your last sentence here).

 

As Woody Allen expressed it in Annie Hall: "What is fascinating [about sports] is that it's physical. You know, it's one thing about intellectuals. They prove that you can be absolutely brilliant and have no idea what's going on."

Edited May 21, 2014 by QASP

[PlantinMoretus]

I don't think it's so much about within/without academia.  Plenty of academics aren't intellectual at all, and plenty of intellectuals do their thing outside of academia.  Though admittedly it is rare for someone with an intellectual bent not to spend at least a little time at university unless life circumstances such as poverty or family obligations make it impossible.

 

It's just that there aren't many intellectuals to begin with.  I am no spring chicken and in my time I have met lots of people and VERY few are what I would consider intellectual.  I think curiosity is the major characteristic of an intellectual and it's truly shocking how few people are curious about anything.  I mean literally not. one. thing.  Most people don't read one book or a long article on a serious topic in a whole year, even a decade.  Or watch a documentary or go to a lecture or event or in some way seek out new information, ideas or perspectives.  Or learn a new skill or hobby.  You get the idea.

 

I want to be clear: I'm not saying it's about who has an advanced degree or what job they have or whether they've read this or that. It's more about a way of looking at the world, taking an interest in it.   E.g. I saw a man in a park with his kids, they were using an app on his smartphone to identify the various trees and shrubs.  That totally counts as intellectual in my book.  In contrast, I know someone who has a master's from the LSE whose major interests in life are her hair, clothes, and makeup.  She never, ever mentions any other interests AT ALL.  (She does, however, have a system for keeping track of which shoes of different heel heights go with which pants of different lengths.)  

 

Just my two cents.

[Guest Gnome Chomsky]

I don't think it's so much about within/without academia. Plenty of academics aren't intellectual at all, and plenty of intellectuals do their thing outside of academia. Though admittedly it is rare for someone with an intellectual bent not to spend at least a little time at university unless life circumstances such as poverty or family obligations make it impossible.

It's just that there aren't many intellectuals to begin with. I am no spring chicken and in my time I have met lots of people and VERY few are what I would consider intellectual. I think curiosity is the major characteristic of an intellectual and it's truly shocking how few people are curious about anything. I mean literally not. one. thing. Most people don't read one book or a long article on a serious topic in a whole year, even a decade. Or watch a documentary or go to a lecture or event or in some way seek out new information, ideas or perspectives. Or learn a new skill or hobby. You get the idea.

I want to be clear: I'm not saying it's about who has an advanced degree or what job they have or whether they've read this or that. It's more about a way of looking at the world, taking an interest in it. E.g. I saw a man in a park with his kids, they were using an app on his smartphone to identify the various trees and shrubs. That totally counts as intellectual in my book. In contrast, I know someone who has a master's from the LSE whose major interests in life are her hair, clothes, and makeup. She never, ever mentions any other interests AT ALL. (She does, however, have a system for keeping track of which shoes of different heel heights go with which pants of different lengths.)

Just my two cents.

I totally agree. It's the curiosity in my opinion that defines an intellectual. I mentioned in some of my earlier posts that the most intellectual friends I have are high school drop outs. People in this thread are assuming that people in academia are curious minds. I don't think that's the case. A lot of people have been in school their entire life because it's what is expected of them. You'd be surprised how many bright people are just going through the motions. Their parents were doctors so they've been on a lifelong mission to become a doctor. Anyway, you're on the money about curiosity. I mentioned how I like stand up comedy and the thing I like about my favorite comics is their curiosity about the world. I mentioned how my intellectual friends are open enough to literally talk about anything. That's why I think you can be an intellectual without being socially awkward. Curious minds can talk to anyone about anything and can have a sense of humour about anything. I know a lot of socially awkward people in college who go through life convincing themselves that the reason they don't have any friends is because they're smarter than everybody.

On a side note, I think my phone is British. It auto-corrected humor to humour. It's a shame too. I kinda liked my phone.

Edited May 21, 2014 by Gnome Chomsky

[spunky]

A lot of my "normal" friends (I call them normies) analyze their friendships and the type of people they hang around with, and why. I get a lot of insight out of my friends who dropped out of college, just as much as I do from others who are in or went to grad school. I find a lot of people within academia denigrate mainstream culture ("the outside world" apparently) without seeking to understand it, and make odd blanket statements that don't hold up to my experience (like your last sentence here).

 

well... wouldn't you say  you're already placing some distance between yourself  and other people by calling your non-academic friends 'normal'? like you have the 'normal' group of friends and the 'academic' group of friends? i mean, you even have a special name for them (which i have to say is more than what i do)!

 

denigrating the outside world is pointless. it is the world that we live in and it influences us more than we can influence it. but my guess is that a staple of a scientific mind is to set yourself apart of the object of study so you can remain as objective as possible when looking at it. Leahey (from 'A History of Psychology') calls it 'the viewpoint from nowhere' so if for i guess 5 or 6 years of graduate school you spend your time looking at things and analyzing and re-analyzing them over and over again, it just makes sense you'll eventually make a habit out of it.

 

what i'm starting to realize is that this is probably depends a lot more on the area of study one is involved in. the people in my area (Mathematics/Statistics) are notorious for insulating ourselves from the 'outside world' if we find a problem that interests us. 

 

it reminds me of the quote Farkas Bolyai sent his son János:

 

"For God's sake, please give it up. Fear it no less than the sensual passion, because it, too, may take up all your time and deprive you of your health, peace of mind and happiness in life. 

[A letter to his son János urging him to give up work on non-Euclidean geometry.]"

 

maybe those of use who have trouble relating to the everyday world just find graduate school to be a decent-enough excuse to rationalize why we can't get along with people in the outside world. with that being said, however, i am thankful for graduate school because i don't think i would have the chance to meet and talk to other people if it were not for it. i can keep an 'everyday' conversation for maybe 10-15mins before the other person (usually non-academic) and myself become painfully aware that we have absolutely nothing to talk about

Edited May 21, 2014 by spunky

[QASP]

 

well... wouldn't you say  you're already placing some distance between yourself  and other people by calling your non-academic friends 'normal'? like you have the 'normal' group of friends and the 'academic' group of friends? i mean, you even have a special name for them (which i have to say is more than what i do)!

 

denigrating the outside world is pointless. it is the world that we live in and it influences us more than we can influence it. but my guess is that a staple of a scientific mind is to set yourself apart of the object of study so you can remain as objective as possible when looking at it. Leahey (from 'A History of Psychology') calls it 'the viewpoint from nowhere' so if for i guess 5 or 6 years of graduate school you spend your time looking at things and analyzing and re-analyzing them over and over again, it just makes sense you'll eventually make a habit out of it.

 

Calling them my 'normal' friends and the "normies" thing was a joke (a joke ripped off from popular culture), I was poking a bit of fun at the divide you seemed to be creating between the 'normal' and 'everyday' vs. academics.

 

There is no such thing as the viewpoint from nowhere, imho. You can't step out of these things, I would argue people who think they can set themselves apart from their objects of study are fooling themselves and are more likely to commit tainted research (in the social sciences, anyway). Of course, many disagree. I'd love to do an experiment on this someday.

[spunky]

Calling them my 'normal' friends and the "normies" thing was a joke (a joke ripped off from popular culture), I was poking a bit of fun at the divide you seemed to be creating between the 'normal' and 'everyday' vs. academics.

 

i guess it helps exemplify how removed some of us are from it all. honestly, i don't even have a clue whether 'normies' is a thing or not. 

 

but the fact that we're even having this conversation points towards the fact that for quite a few of us (i'm glad i'm not alone) the divide is quite tangible

[Guest Gnome Chomsky]

The only time I've ever heard the term normies used was by people with Asperger's. Apparently that's a commonly used term in that community. I knew some people who have it and we were talking and they kept using the term normies. 

[PlantinMoretus]

From the Asperger's community I have also heard "NTs" as in "neuro-typicals".

[Guest Gnome Chomsky]

Yeah you're right. That's the term they kept using. My bad.

[danieleWrites]

I'm in a unique position. More than half of the people in the grad school at my university have celebrated fewer birthdays than I've celebrated wedding anniversaries (we're a one-anniversary-a-year couple, no first this or first that. wedding only). My spouse has a crap-ton of education, but very little of it is collegiate. Come zombie apocalypse time, I'm hiding behind him.

I'm an introvert, which makes a difference in how understand the concept of "friend". I find them disposable, as well, even though I really miss certain people and the good times we used to have. I'm sufficiently weird, even to my cohort, in my interests and knowledge base. It's kind of creepy to exchange conversation with people who think Phantom Menace is the first movie. As if. I was there, in 1979, for the first movie. The people putting together tenure packets these days are my age.

Anyway. I have grad-school buddies. I call them friendquaintances because they're more than acquaintances but a bit less than friends. I have had no time for non-grad-school friends during my first year. I had a Paper that Ate My Life to get over. Anyway. Getting non-grad-school friends isn't that difficult, even for dedicated introverts (of the world unite! separately, in our own homes). I like to golf. So I joined a women's golf league and made some pals. I have a buddy who is a knitter, joined a knitting group. I've joined a book club (but there was a bitter feud of Earl Grey and the definition of socialism so I sneered like Stewie and went my own way). Be a joiner.

Most grad schools have a grad school-wide groups and programs that you can get involved in. I have an ethnic grad and faculty group that I joined that does work in the community. I have a skeptics group that I'm skeptical of joining. I joined professional associations.

[dstock]

My friendships with non-grad people (people from high school, random friends-of-friends) are very similar to my friendships w/fellow grad students. 

 

Only difference for me is that non-grad are moving ahead in life stages (marriage/house/etc) faster than my grad-student circle so the socialization is a little different. 

 

My grad school friends and I just talk about normal life things once we're out of seminar.   I like reading about politics, history, etc but  I can be curious and read up on anything on my own time.  I don't care about intellectual discussions during social time.  I want to joke around and talk about whatever... nothing too deep.

 

 

[bsharpe269]

It is interesting that there seems to be 2 different kinds of people here: those who like having intellectual conversations during social time and those who would rather goof off and take a break. The people who want to have intelletual conversations seem to have difficulty making non academic friends but it seems to come very easy to those who see social time as an intellectual break.

 

I definitely fall into the first category. I do take some time away from school for things like family dinner or date night with my SO or to do other things that I enjoy like excercise. I probably take about 3 evenings a week off of intellectual pursuits. Of course, I may spend dinner talking about school or research. You never see me at home, just sitting around watching TV. Lately, whenever I have free time from school I study physical chemistry since I never took it during undergrad. I usually have a topic that I love reading about and I consider that my free time. I definitely have a hard time relating to other people. My ideal "hang out" would either be having intellectual conversations, doing something worthwhile like running together, or my all time favorite hangout is just having study groups since I get to be social while doing what I love.

[Guest Gnome Chomsky]

It is interesting that there seems to be 2 different kinds of people here: those who like having intellectual conversations during social time and those who would rather goof off and take a break. The people who want to have intelletual conversations seem to have difficulty making non academic friends but it seems to come very easy to those who see social time as an intellectual break.

I also think there seem to be 2 different kinds of definitions of "intellectual conversations." You can speak intellectually, or philosophically, about a topic that isn't related to what you are studying. You even said when you talk intellectually at the dinner table it's about school or research. You can have a conversation on a higher level than, say, the weather or sports that isn't about organic chemistry or linear algebra. You said the group of people who don't speak intellectually just like to "goof off" in their free time. You can talk about your views on the world, religion, politics, alternate universes, absolute values, etc with non-academics. If someone isn't talking about research in their free time it doesn't mean they're sitting with their head on the table saying, "I like soup." 

[MakeYourself]

I don't necessarily want to have 'intellectual' conversations or non-intellectual ones, and I don't really think the line can be drawn between the '2 kinds' of conversation very easily.

 

Honestly, I've been thinking about the issue more lately since I started this thread and I've come to the conclusion that I just have a hard time relating to people in general. I think I have low tolerance for people, am impatient, and don't really like to put up with BS. Basically, I think I hold everyone (including myself) to unrealistically high standards (not necessarily intellectual standards but just standards in general) and it has nothing to do with grad school. I think this is just the way I've always been but grad school just highlights it even more.

 

Glad my issues sparked conversation for others though...

[bsharpe269]

I also think there seem to be 2 different kinds of definitions of "intellectual conversations." You can speak intellectually, or philosophically, about a topic that isn't related to what you are studying. You even said when you talk intellectually at the dinner table it's about school or research. You can have a conversation on a higher level than, say, the weather or sports that isn't about organic chemistry or linear algebra. You said the group of people who don't speak intellectually just like to "goof off" in their free time. You can talk about your views on the world, religion, politics, alternate universes, absolute values, etc with non-academics. If someone isn't talking about research in their free time it doesn't mean they're sitting with their head on the table saying, "I like soup." 

 

I agree. I really just meant research as an example of what I might talk about. I am absorbed in science constantly so that is often what is on my mind and therefore what I talk about. I also find conversations about politics, religion, etc interesting though. I don't come across people who want to talk about these things any more than science though.

 

This might also depend on where people live... I am in the bible belt and I dont come across many people who want to talk about religion. Where I am from, talking about religion means asking someone where they go to church. Most of the other women I meet want to talk about their hair, where they went shopping, what they learned at their bible study, or gossip about the other woman in their workout class. It isnt even common to ask a woman what her career is since she probably is a stay at home wife and might feel akward by the question. To be clear, I am not trying to judge people like this! I am just commenting that I have a hard time making friends with them. I guess because of this, I either find myself talking to other academics (usually about science) or taking about someone's cute new shoes...