Venting Thread

[ScaredyCat]

22 minutes ago, philstudent1992 said:

You make a lot of good points. However, I'd like to point out that it's irresponsible to quote studies that claim things like "When people look at a resume/cv from someone name Maria Rodriguez and John Smith, and both have the same qualifications, they are more likely to judge the former more harshly" as if they're indisputable fact. These social psych results are notoriously hard to replicate, and there are plenty of studies that claim that the opposite is true (e.g. Williams and Ceci 2014 made a big ole stink a while ago). So, while it's definitely not the case that women and minorities who get PhD spots don't deserve those spots, and it's hard to really know how adcoms are judging people, I think it's unfair to assert right out that women and minorities are automatically viewed as inferior even when they have the same credentials -- while it would explain some things, and it would probably fit some people's prior beliefs, things just aren't equivocally proven one way or another.

Not proving something unequivocally does not mean people need to remain neutral. Evidence can swing to one side or the other. The research on implicit bias is extensive and I accord my beliefs to evidence. So I do not think it is irresponsible to assert that people have negative implicit biases towards women and minorities and positive biases towards men and white people. Of course I should frame it differently in the future.

[majorshake]

Not to take away from the other thing going on, but does anyone have any idea how ad-coms look at international students vs US students (or those who went through the US system)??
 

[ScaredyCat]

6 minutes ago, majorshake said:

Not to take away from the other thing going on, but does anyone have any idea how ad-coms look at international students vs US students (or those who went through the US system)??
 

Wish I knew more. The only thing I know is that with international students whose first language is not English, they tend to discount the GRE scores.

[majorshake]

2 minutes ago, Hermione27 said:

Wish I knew more. The only thing I know is that with international students whose first language is not English, they tend to discount the GRE scores.

I can understand that about the GRE.. that test is straight up designed to weed out students whose first language isn't English.

 

Thank you anyhow.

[Nat_Foot]

5 hours ago, philosophe said:

The students themselves don't know what their letters say, let alone someone else's letters... not to mention grades, etc. So I find it hard to believe that someone else would be able to judge which application is "better," especially without having access to all the information, or knowing what kind of student the adcomm is looking for (which is notoriously difficult to know). Hell, I know plenty of info on other students in my program, but there's no way for me to objectively judge myself as superior or inferior. The whole thing is a crapshoot. 

And by 90% I was referring to the entire philosophical profession, not just current phd candidates. Although top programs might hit a target ratio of 50/50 many schools fail to enroll women in their cohort. I can think of programs without women in all of their years (Rochester) though they may have yielded one in the last year, I don't know. UCSB had no women in their entering cohort of 7 last year. The gender imbalance is real and nothing to laugh about. To say that adcomms actively discriminate against men is ignoring the larger issue. 

I have also heard from Sarah-Jane Leslie (at Princeton) that NYU, MIT, and Princeton did not yield any women for one year... It's actually a pretty terrifying situation to think about if you're a woman. 

[majorshake]

4 minutes ago, Nat_Foot said:

 It's actually a pretty terrifying situation to think about if you're a woman. 

I agree, though I can't know from first hand experience.

But I can imagine it being pretty uncomfortable being the only woman in the room (or one of two) with 12 or so men, every damn time you're in a room with other philosophers.

[behindclosedoors]

6 hours ago, TheChosenOne said:

I'm here to vent about the severe racism and sexism among admissions committees. ...

And it's no small matter. My white male friend and I have received only rejections and anticipate many more. I applied to a ton of schools and anticipate maybe one or two acceptances (but only after sitting for many weeks on a waitlist). But we know two gals at our program, of equal caliber with ourselves (perhaps lower), who each got into nearly every program they applied to, some within the top 10, with full funding. In fact, when one of these gals was flown out to a top university, they practically begged her to come. ...

 

6 hours ago, TheChosenOne said:

I know these two personally, know their scores, their letters, and their writing samples. I actually helped one write hers. I've also got better GRE scores, and an MA. (She's only an undergrad.) So it is frustrating to watch her get in to so many places while I've gotten pretty much nothing.

In Jungian psychology, what we do not acknowledge in ourselves (our Shadow Self) is projected onto others.

This person, who aptly calls himself "TheChosenOne", complains of special treatment yet secretly desires this special treatment for himself.

I deplore this attitude and all those who sympathise with the content of his post.

No one (and that means no one regardless of their gender or race) is entitled to a PhD, no matter how brilliant, smart or excellent they are (or think they are).

Lose the sense of entitlement and you will, remarkably, also lose all the frustration and anger that goes with it. 

[TheChosenOne]

Profound.

[qkjg]

3 hours ago, TheChosenOne said:

Profound.

https://gradschool.duke.edu/about/statistics/philosophy-phd-admissions-and-enrollment-statistics

for 2015/2016:

7/35 female applications were successful - 20%

3/108 male applications were successful - 2.7%

the numbers seem to validate some discussion and venting. though as a qualifier, this kind of data is hard to find and numbers are easy to cherry pick

 

[philosophe]

5 hours ago, Nat_Foot said:

I have also heard from Sarah-Jane Leslie (at Princeton) that NYU, MIT, and Princeton did not yield any women for one year... It's actually a pretty terrifying situation to think about if you're a woman. 

I flat out did not go to a Phd program two years ago because there were no women. Talk about isolating. 

[philosophe]

1 hour ago, qkjg said:

https://gradschool.duke.edu/about/statistics/philosophy-phd-admissions-and-enrollment-statistics

for 2015/2016:

7/35 female applications were successful - 20%

3/108 male applications were successful - 2.7%

the numbers seem to validate some discussion and venting. though as a qualifier, this kind of data is hard to find and numbers are easy to cherry pick

 

Isn't it enough that men receive preferential treatment in all other areas of life? (Interviewing and salary negotiations, general respect and authority, perceived intelligence, bodily autonomy, making a dollar compared to a woman's 77 cents, I could go on forever...) Men need this one too? I'm sorry, I have no sympathy, even if it is accurate that admissions are skewed towards women. 

Edited February 17, 2016 by philosophe

[Disgruntledlurker]

The data are definitely sparse and easy to cherry-pick. I've been following Kate Norlock's attempts to gather sufficient data for a while, and Eric Schwitzgebel has recently taken up the task, too. 

Here's what Schwitzgebel says so far: http://schwitzsplinters.blogspot.ca/2016/01/percentages-of-us-doctorates-in.html

Edited February 17, 2016 by Disgruntledlurker

[samori]

3 minutes ago, Disgruntledlurker said:

The data are definitely sparse and easy to cherry-pick. I've been following Kate Norlock's attempts to gather sufficient data for a while, and Eric Schwitzgebel has recently taken up the task, too. 

Here's what Schwitzgebel says so far: http://schwitzsplinters.blogspot.ca/2016/01/percentages-of-us-doctorates-in.html

Schwitzgebel and Jennings' recent report on women in philosophy is also a good read: http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~eschwitz/SchwitzPapers/WomenInPhil-160212.pdf

[Shawn3007+]

13 minutes ago, philosophe said:

I flat out did not go to a Phd program two years ago because there were no women. Talk about isolating. 

And you are the reason for even more women not going into PhD programs. You can't expect things to magically change for you, everyone who is different has had to fight for what they want. If you go into a PhD program the lone woman, you may inspire other women to follow suit and breakdown stereotypes that your male colleagues hold about you. Stop expecting men to come "save" you. 

[Disgruntledlurker]

2 minutes ago, hot.glass said:

Schwitzgebel and Jennings' recent report on women in philosophy is also a good read: http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~eschwitz/SchwitzPapers/WomenInPhil-160212.pdf

Nice, that's the paper that the blog post I linked to is about. 

[genesis]

Shawn, the reason more women don't go into PhD programs in philosophy is not because people like philosophe make tough choices in order to diminish the real effects that male philosophers' misogyny has on them. The reason more women don't go into philosophy PhD programs is because of male philosophers' misogyny.

Asking to be treated with respect is not asking men to come save us.

[metaphysician]

20 hours ago, bechkafish said:

Oh man. Still 6 out of 7 applications outstanding. I really, really need a win this week... I'm not getting any work done, I'm not sleeping well, my chest feels like it's in a vice all the time. This whole process is cruel and unusual.

 

18 hours ago, FoxAndChicken said:

I think I've caught a bit of a depression bug, too.  My "friends" have put me into a bit of a funk. The mathematicians I know have all found out many of their decisions and one who isn't actually applying for anything made a snarky comment like "You can sit at the grown up table when you've actually heard from graduate schools." And in an unrelated incident the next day, some other mathematicians wrote in the undergraduate math commons "No logic in this room please" and "Set Theory isn't a real math." I've been super depressed since then and unable to function normally. 

I'm sorry you are feeling low! I went through a really tough time last year and my GP really helped me. Is that something you could consider? I have never understood the need folks feel to say what's philosophy (or mathematics) and what's not. Insecurity? Good luck.  

[philosophe]

12 minutes ago, Shawn3007+ said:

And you are the reason for even more women not going into PhD programs. You can't expect things to magically change for you, everyone who is different has had to fight for what they want. If you go into a PhD program the lone woman, you may inspire other women to follow suit and breakdown stereotypes that your male colleagues hold about you. Stop expecting men to come "save" you. 

Clearly you have never been the lone person of your gender or lone person of your race anywhere. Consider what that must be like, and then decide if you would want to be that person for 5 years, especially with people thinking that you're only there to be that token person of race or gender, and that you don't deserve to be there solely because of your academic merit. (As many on this thread have suggested).

Edited February 17, 2016 by philosophe

[Disgruntledlurker]

7 minutes ago, Shawn3007+ said:

And you are the reason for even more women not going into PhD programs. You can't expect things to magically change for you, everyone who is different has had to fight for what they want. If you go into a PhD program the lone woman, you may inspire other women to follow suit and breakdown stereotypes that your male colleagues hold about you. Stop expecting men to come "save" you. 

If we're going in a linearly causal direction with this, I'm going to go ahead and say the reason even more women don't go into PhD programs is admissions committees that categorically don't accept them. I'd avoid a department like that, too. I'm having difficulty seeing how you think that the choice to go to a program with female students is antifeminist. Wouldn't a brain-drain in sexist schools further the feminist goal of promoting a more inclusive academia?

[Establishment]

Also, in response to Shawn, there's just a general amount of pragmatism in choosing not to attending such a department. Philosophe had no obligation to attend. The fact that a department has no other female students can itself be a red flag: why have no other female candidates been admitted? why haven't they ended up attending? why did they enter into the department but subsequently leave?

I'd also like to say there's something morally disturbing in your claim that: "everyone who is different has had to fight for what they want." It's like a light mix of victim blaming, as well as holding someone responsible for not meeting supererogatory claims. How is it fair that someone has to be the brave individual who blazes the trail (even if one accepts such a premise)?

Edited February 17, 2016 by Establishment

[FoxAndChicken]

Ohmygosh. What happened here? Eep. I took a law and philosophy course last semester that talked about race discrimination in academia, and had to deal with a lot of people throwing around these types of arguments. If anecdotal evidence is fair game, as it appears that that is the trend, here's mine: 

I'm half mexican, and my dad is an immigrant. I grew up unable to communicate with about half of my family, and I lived in a trailer park for the first eight years of my life before moving to a small apartment in a town where I was the only Mexicanish Latinaish person--in sixth grade people asked if I brushed my hair because I was the only one who had curly hair. At fourteen I decided to get a job, and I coded websites for ten dollars an hour while eating only ramen so that I could attend private school. I financed this entirely myself. Parental supervision wasn't super big because my mom is a cosmetologist who owns a small business, so she wasn't really home when I was growing up. Then, in college, I have worked three jobs for the past several years while living in an apartment made for one person with my dad and uncle. Sophomore year the university screwed up my financial aid and froze my account, so I couldn't register for classes and I stopped eating in order to make payments. I dropped to 104 lbs (for reference, this was a decrease of about twenty pounds), and pulled several all nighters. Because I'm a first generation college student (my mom didn't complete high school) I dealt with all of this while hearing things from my mom like "If it *really* mattered to you, you would just have a 4.0." and "Please help your sister with scheduling, but make sure she takes useful classes, not the crap you're taking." (I'm paying for college, I take the classes I want.) Now, senior year, I'm probably going to be shut out of graduate school, I'm going to find a job and reapply. And I know that if I had the amount of time to focus on my studies that many of my peers get (and they seem to have a lot of time to go out and drink and party), I could actually have a 4.0 and a stellar writing sample and a perfect GRE score. (I actually did get a 4.0 last semester.) Instead, I balance three jobs, leadership positions in Women in Math, I volunteer with a group that helps get more students interested in mathematics, and I'm taking six classes. (So basically, I pull a couple all nighters per week and drink coffee two to four times a day.) 

And if I don't get into graduate school, my response isn't going to be to complain that the system seems to hate me. Instead, I'm going to work harder to be an applicant they want to accept.  

Edited February 17, 2016 by FoxAndChicken

[Chrysippus'Doge]

1 hour ago, FoxAndChicken said:

Ohmygosh. What happened here? Eep. I took a law and philosophy course last semester that talked about race discrimination in academia, and had to deal with a lot of people throwing around these types of arguments. If anecdotal evidence is fair game, as it appears that that is the trend, here's mine: 

I'm half mexican, and my dad is an immigrant. I grew up unable to communicate with about half of my family, and I lived in a trailer park for the first eight years of my life before moving to a small apartment in a town where I was the only Mexicanish Latinaish person--in sixth grade people asked if I brushed my hair because I was the only one who had curly hair. At fourteen I decided to get a job, and I coded websites for ten dollars an hour while eating only ramen so that I could attend private school. I financed this entirely myself. Parental supervision wasn't super big because my mom is a cosmetologist who owns a small business, so she wasn't really home when I was growing up. Then, in college, I have worked three jobs for the past several years while living in an apartment made for one person with my dad and uncle. Sophomore year the university screwed up my financial aid and froze my account, so I couldn't register for classes and I stopped eating in order to make payments. I dropped to 104 lbs (for reference, this was a decrease of about twenty pounds), and pulled several all nighters. Because I'm a first generation college student (my mom didn't complete high school) I dealt with all of this while hearing things from my mom like "If it *really* mattered to you, you would just have a 4.0." and "Please help your sister with scheduling, but make sure she takes useful classes, not the crap you're taking." (I'm paying for college, I take the classes I want.) Now, senior year, I'm probably going to be shut out of graduate school, I'm going to find a job and reapply. And I know that if I had the amount of time to focus on my studies that many of my peers get (and they seem to have a lot of time to go out and drink and party), I could actually have a 4.0 and a stellar writing sample and a perfect GRE score. (I actually did get a 4.0 last semester.) Instead, I balance three jobs, leadership positions in Women in Math, I volunteer with a group that helps get more students interested in mathematics, and I'm taking six classes. (So basically, I pull a couple all nighters per week and drink coffee two to four times a day.) 

And if I don't get into graduate school, my response isn't going to be to complain that the system seems to hate me. Instead, I'm going to work harder to be an applicant they want to accept.  

This is really inspirational. I wish you nothing but success this application season, sounds like you absolutely earned it. 

(Also, don't worry about those idiots in your math commons. They sound more like first year engineering students than mathematicians).

[Effloresce]

2 hours ago, Shawn3007+ said:

And you are the reason for even more women not going into PhD programs. You can't expect things to magically change for you, everyone who is different has had to fight for what they want. If you go into a PhD program the lone woman, you may inspire other women to follow suit and breakdown stereotypes that your male colleagues hold about you. Stop expecting men to come "save" you. 

a) what you wrote is appalling. why should she go out of her comfort zone? what is wrong with wanting to go into a program with more individuals like you?

also b ) why blame her? stop victim-blaming.  no one wants men to "save" them. we just want men to stop being misogynistic. it really shouldn't be solely the oppressed's responsibility to change the situation..that's frankly bullshit.

[MVSCZAR]

If love to meet the man who thinks he deserves the spots I get more than I do. That'd be funny. 

 

I mean, I get it. For the first time in their lives, being a man is a gender, and being white is a race, rather than being the center from which all things deviate. It must be scary. But I would expect more from future philosophers than bad arguments about reverse sexism or reverse racism. You all are fundamentally misunderstanding precisely why and how diversity is good for the academy. 

 

At any rate, I've often been the only woman in philosophy classes or in philosophy groups. I don't really mind it because I learned to be assertive and steadfast, but it was difficult to learn and painful when everything you're taught your whole life about what kind of person you should be runs counter to it. That's probably a big reason why so few women end up trying to pursue philosophy to begin with. In a way, just that weeds out a huge amount of people who feel they're incapable. And, generally, men are a lot more confident in their abilities, so I'd assume more would apply simply by virtue of believing in themselves more. 

 

And for @philosophe getting blamed for there not being enough women in philosophy. Lol. It takes a lot of confidence to throw out such a bullshit argument in a public philosophy forum... 

[philosophe]

3 hours ago, FoxAndChicken said:

Ohmygosh. What happened here? Eep. I took a law and philosophy course last semester that talked about race discrimination in academia, and had to deal with a lot of people throwing around these types of arguments. If anecdotal evidence is fair game, as it appears that that is the trend, here's mine: 

I'm half mexican, and my dad is an immigrant. I grew up unable to communicate with about half of my family, and I lived in a trailer park for the first eight years of my life before moving to a small apartment in a town where I was the only Mexicanish Latinaish person--in sixth grade people asked if I brushed my hair because I was the only one who had curly hair. At fourteen I decided to get a job, and I coded websites for ten dollars an hour while eating only ramen so that I could attend private school. I financed this entirely myself. Parental supervision wasn't super big because my mom is a cosmetologist who owns a small business, so she wasn't really home when I was growing up. Then, in college, I have worked three jobs for the past several years while living in an apartment made for one person with my dad and uncle. Sophomore year the university screwed up my financial aid and froze my account, so I couldn't register for classes and I stopped eating in order to make payments. I dropped to 104 lbs (for reference, this was a decrease of about twenty pounds), and pulled several all nighters. Because I'm a first generation college student (my mom didn't complete high school) I dealt with all of this while hearing things from my mom like "If it *really* mattered to you, you would just have a 4.0." and "Please help your sister with scheduling, but make sure she takes useful classes, not the crap you're taking." (I'm paying for college, I take the classes I want.) Now, senior year, I'm probably going to be shut out of graduate school, I'm going to find a job and reapply. And I know that if I had the amount of time to focus on my studies that many of my peers get (and they seem to have a lot of time to go out and drink and party), I could actually have a 4.0 and a stellar writing sample and a perfect GRE score. (I actually did get a 4.0 last semester.) Instead, I balance three jobs, leadership positions in Women in Math, I volunteer with a group that helps get more students interested in mathematics, and I'm taking six classes. (So basically, I pull a couple all nighters per week and drink coffee two to four times a day.) 

And if I don't get into graduate school, my response isn't going to be to complain that the system seems to hate me. Instead, I'm going to work harder to be an applicant they want to accept.  

Thank you so much for sharing this. These guys really need to hear it. I can tell that you're going to make it!