Do you know anyone who didn't get in anywhere? (Warning: rant)

[Anita]

Do you know anyone, maybe yourself, who didn't get in anywhere? And what happened to them? Bonus points if their story resembles mine in any way.

I'm applying to 15 programs, all in Social Psychology (most competitive among psyc subfields) which I'm not sure is a good antidote for the fact that my credentials are pretty uneven. For a lengthy summary, see my first post on this board (TLDR: foreign student, US degree, low-to-average GPA, probably lackluster recs, relying entirely on university funding, high GRE is only highlight). Now it's sinking in that the ~$2000 I invested in this whole application business may have been wasted. People applying to the same programs are getting interviews and whatnot, but I'm not hearing anything. Reality also kicked in: the economy, my lack of research exp, my grade in stats, gloomy employment prospects, etc. Lots of anxiety flying around here: what will people who know I'm applying think (especially people who've only known me as the superstar I was in high school), what will I tell them if I don't get in anywhere, do I stick around the States or go home, get a job and forget about the whole academic pipe dream, should I blow my savings on a year or two of world travel or something equally crazy, should I go into hiding in my home country for a couple years and do all the reading I've always wanted to do, then try again, how do I get research experience if I can't find an RA job stateside, yadda yadda yadda. And then there's the whole self-blame thing (should have worked harder, facebooked less, gone to office hours more often etc.). In summary, this is just a pretty bad time all around.

Before this post devolves into more ranting, I just want to say I'd really appreciate stories and perspectives from you all. Oh and happy new year - hope everyone enjoys the fireworks show tonight

PS: since this post is already lengthy and unfocused, I figured no one will be angered further if I make it even more so by posting my school list Maybe there's a social psychologist lurking here who has a thought or two. My research interests are close relationships and academic motivation. All these schools have at least one advisor whose research I'm fairly crazy about and who is taking new students. Dream schools are UWisc, UMich and Rochester.)

U Missouri Columbia

Northwestern

SUNY Buffalo

Mich State

UMich Ann Arbor

UNC Chapel Hill

NYU

TAMU

Stony Brook

U Wisc Madison

Rochester

Cornell

Wayne

UNC Greensboro

Edited December 31, 2009 by Anita

[peppermint.beatnik]

I didn't get in to any of the four US school to which I applied last year. Applying as an international student during a recession worked against me. I followed up with the schools. Two were helpful, two, not so much.

It took a major toll on me emotionally, especially late February to mid-April, when I was pretty much in a black hole.

I was living overseas at the time. I think this helped, and also, made it worse, in some ways.

I'm still here and applying again.

I think I'm OK socially!

Edited December 31, 2009 by peppermint.beatnik

[solairne]

I only applied to 4 schools, all PhDs, and I'm starting to think that might have been a very poorly thought out idea.

If I don't get into any of these 4 schools, I'm going to take a year off and write more research papers, attend the Linguistic Summer Institute over the summer, and reapply next year to the same schools AND several MA programs.

I'm not gonna lie, I'll not only be crushed but pretty unjustifiably pissed off if that happens... but there is no point in speculating until the end of March comes. That said, it's hard not to. I just had 2 dreams last night about admissions....

Probably going crazy - haha

[psychdork]

I applied to five PhD programs last year, all in social psychology as well, and was rejected by all of them. Everything about my application last year was strong, with the possible exception of my GRE scores which were borderline. I got my first rejection letter from my #1 choice in late January, and it all pretty much went downhill from then. Everyone told me to not let it get to me, but really when you put that much time and energy into something, how can you not let it get to you? And one thing no one mentions is how hard it is when friends/other students are accepted somewhere. Anyway, I moped around for a couple months (Jan-May as I got the rest of my rejection letters) and at one point starting looking at non-academic options. However, the entire process, especially the rejection part, made me realize how much I want this. So finally I told myself to stop feeling bad about what happened as I couldn't change it, and decided that I'm going to give it my all again.

So I talked to my mentor, who said I could continue working in his lab this year as I reapplied. He also referred me to two other labs on campus, so I've been working in them as well. I retook the GRE and improved my score, and got a part time job in a research setting (the lab work is volunteer), and submitted several papers to an upcoming conference. I applied to 8 schools this year (some are the same as last year), and while it is frustrating to have to go through all this again, I've found that I'm less stressed about it all than I was last year. However, with that all being said, if I don't get in this year, I have no idea what I'm going to do...

[socialpsych]

You are in social psych and a current undergraduate? This is an easy one. If you don't get in anywhere, and grad school is still your goal, work as an RA or lab manager in somebody's lab for a couple years, then reapply.

A lot of applicants to top social psych programs are NOT straight out of undergrad -- they have been doing research full time for a year or two. And that gives them a big leg up over people straight out of undergrad, especially undergrad at liberal arts colleges. I don't want to discourage you about your chances, but this just means that if you don't end up getting the offers you want, it may not have anything to do with your potential as a researcher; you just haven't had as much of a chance to build up your CV yet. (Working as an RA or lab manager would probably fix your lackluster-recs problem too, which to my eye is the biggest weakness in your profile as you've represented it here).

And a lot of those RAs and lab managers are people who already applied straight out of undergrad and weren't happy with the results. So it's not like you only get one shot.

So, if you don't get in anywhere (and, again, assuming grad school is still your goal), don't worry too much about it, and start looking for RA jobs. Then reapply in a couple years. No one at your dream programs will even bat an eye when they see your application again, and your chances will probably be much, much better.

Hope this helps. From what you wrote above it sounds like you are aware that RAing could be a logical next step, so I am not sure I've told you anything you don't already know...

[ma7eb4i]

I am applying for neurosciences and have not gotten a single interview invitation. Based on the jamming Results Page full of neuroscience folk getting positive, I have the sinking feeling that I didn't get in anywhere. Hang in there. I'm trying to tell myself it's not the end of the world and that there's always next year. Not that that's helping terribly much. *sigh* The really horrible thing is that the pessimism is leaking into other arenas of my life.

[Anita]

Thanks for responding everyone

It's sad that admission does seem even more competitive than ever. I'm glad though that all of you seem incredibly resilient, which gives me more motivation to keep trying. After all, our individual failures are not as significant to anyone else as they are to ourselves, which takes care of the "what would they think about me" anxiety. Also, as long as you're not your own barrier, no one keeps you from working some more and then trying again. Hmm...I'm just thinking aloud here

@socialpsych: I'd totally go work as an RA for a year or three. My main issues are, one, I'm a foreign student. I only get one year of paid work. Two, I got a C+ in stats (THERE I SAID IT). I imagine that's going to make every lab hiring person run away screaming, since stats is so central to an RA's job. Three, and this is probably easy to fix with the right advice, I don't know how to find RA positions other than the occasional email from my school's psyc department. Do you email professors you want to work with? Fourth, it's looking very hard to find paid RA positions, especially when you want to work in a certain area in social psyc. I may not care about the RA pay itself, but I need a paid job of any kind to even stay in the States and spend the requisite 10 volunteer hours in a lab.

That probably sounds very confusing to you. Let me know if you are, indeed, confused, and I'll follow up with a crash course on the ins and outs of being an international student

[workingonit]

When I applied for Neuroscience PhD programs two years ago, I got rejected from all 7 schools. Without going into the details on why, I can say that it utterly blew me apart and that I stayed depressed for close to a full year. I was lucky though--I changed labs and have been working full time for the past almost-two-years with a fantastic PI. He's allowed me to develop and work on my own project, present at conferences, write papers and grants, everything. Its given me the time I needed to rebuild my shattered confidence and remember why it is that I am so drawn to research.

Regarding applications, the huge degree of breadth and depth of experiences I've added to my CV over the last two years has utterly changed me as a graduate school applicant. I went back and reread my previous applications, and I can honestly say that the time off allowed me to really mature and grow as a scientist--and it shows in my CV and in my SOP. I'm happy to report that I've already received interview offers from 3 of my 9 programs...but it certainly has been a long road.

So the bottom line is that I agree with the above comments--if you don't get in, find someone (either in the US or in your country--experience is experience) who will allow you to really dig in deep with the research, if possible who will allow you to work on your own project. Adcoms seem to really respond to applicants who have taken control of a project and seen it through from start to finish, because it is a direct indicator of the applicant's ability to handle a thesis project. I'm not saying it will be easy--it wasn't for me--but it will push you to grow. You may also find that, if the worst happens and you have to reapply, your path may be smoother in grad school for the time taken to build up the level of experience. Cold comfort, I know.

All of that being said--don't give up yet! We're way early in the response/interview season!

[johndiligent]

I am applying for neurosciences and have not gotten a single interview invitation. Based on the jamming Results Page full of neuroscience folk getting positive, I have the sinking feeling that I didn't get in anywhere. Hang in there. I'm trying to tell myself it's not the end of the world and that there's always next year. Not that that's helping terribly much. *sigh* The really horrible thing is that the pessimism is leaking into other arenas of my life.

You may have been waitlisted. They tend to send for-sure rejections early, at the same time as they send the for-sure acceptances, so you may be waitlisted informally or formally.

[socialpsych]

Oh, I see. Bummer. Well, then you could do a year; I'd think that would still help, and if you start in the summer, you'll have done a few months already by the time you need to apply. Are there good universities with strong psych faculty in your home country where you could work for two years?

I honestly don't know how much of a problem the stats grade would be. My impression from working with a few full-time RAs is that their stats background varies: some have a lot of background and some virtually none. I don't know what their CVs looked like when they applied, but you might have a chance. Have you actually talked to anyone about this or are you speculating? All that said, as you pointed out, this is more of a problem than just getting a job. I know of RAs who decided to sit in on a stats class at the school where they were working, if they didn't have the background coming in, because they needed the skills. Is there any sense in retaking the class during your last semester at school? I suppose you got a passing grade so maybe not...but, again, a C+ in stats is not damning of you as a person; it just means you need to do some catching up, so once you can demonstrate that, I think you'll be okay. A lot of people in the field who are proficient in stats had trouble with it at first.

Regarding how to find RA work: yes, the emails from your school department are one source. You can also try asking profs at your current school for ideas and info about who is currently hiring. I am not sure whether it's the norm to just email professors of interest, although if you have made contact with anybody during the application process, that might open the door. But please, don't go on my advice alone! Are there any RAs at your school you could ask? As outside academia, the best way to get a job is probably through mutual connections, so if any profs you know can point you toward someone, that could be a good bet.

And, if you find yourself looking for RA positions in your home country, and you are limited with respect to location, I am guessing it would be more acceptable to just email profs. But I am not totally sure about that, either.

[NeuroNerd86]

My former labmate - a non-US citizen - got rejected across the board last year. In his case, there were many factors that led to this situation: mediocre GRE scores, lack of translatable GPA, lack of international reputation of the school where he got his BA and Masters. Plus, he only applied to the top ranked schools like Harvard, Penn etc. On the flip side, he had a lot of research experience (no publications, though). This year he got published first author, improved his GRE scores (although they still were not incredibly stellar) and got more research experience. He cast his net wider and applied to good programs in Midwest and Florida as opposed to only high-ranked one in big cities. As a result, he is now attending a very good school, althogh in a rather obscure and isolated location. During the process this time around, he was told straight out by most schools that rejected him that they didn't have enough funding for an international student and that was the main reason for rejection. I guess that is exactly what happened to Peppermint Beatnik last year. I guess what can help here is applying to scholarships/funding for international students and checking whether there are schools where students get funded through the Dean's office/university, not through an individual faculty's budget. The economy really isn't helping anyone these days....

[a fragrant plant]

My former labmate - a non-US citizen - got rejected across the board last year. In his case, there were many factors that led to this situation: mediocre GRE scores, lack of translatable GPA, lack of international reputation of the school where he got his BA and Masters. Plus, he only applied to the top ranked schools like Harvard, Penn etc. On the flip side, he had a lot of research experience (no publications, though). This year he got published first author, improved his GRE scores (although they still were not incredibly stellar) and got more research experience. He cast his net wider and applied to good programs in Midwest and Florida as opposed to only high-ranked one in big cities. As a result, he is now attending a very good school, althogh in a rather obscure and isolated location. During the process this time around, he was told straight out by most schools that rejected him that they didn't have enough funding for an international student and that was the main reason for rejection. I guess that is exactly what happened to Peppermint Beatnik last year. I guess what can help here is applying to scholarships/funding for international students and checking whether there are schools where students get funded through the Dean's office/university, not through an individual faculty's budget. The economy really isn't helping anyone these days....

If I don't get in anywhere, I think what you said will be the major reason of rejection.

[Dr._Robotnik's_Shadow]

Somewhere there is a threat on this "I got in no where" I think it's called. Anyways...

I think not getting into any schools is more common than we think. I seem to know a large handful of applicants who didn't get into a school the first and even second round of apps and a few are even trying for a 3rd orf in some cases a 4th round. Depressions was the biggest thing I saw happen. Losing interest in activities and friends and a sense of hopelessness was common from those rejected from all schools.

I happen to work at a school where the students are higly ambitious and motivated so even after multiple years of rejections they kept going--and finally made it by the way...a few are still trying but I think this year will be their year. Basically, these people still had an amazing "can-do" attitude and for them life went on. They tempted for a while, got little jobs, got into substitute teaching. A few lucky ones traveled, went to Japan to teach English etc. Life wasn't what they wanted at the time but they did what they could do to survive and get on with life. I don't have a story of any one who applied four or more times and never got in. Everyone gets in at some point. The main thing is to have a tight group of supportive people, especially professors who were willing to help them a lot with their apps and get them on the right track.

For all the applicants I know who had to apply multiple times, the main thing I noticed about them is that their initial apps semed more like an app to get into undergrad rather than grad school. They could've gotten into their top choices the first time around if they understood the app process but they didn't./ Asking for help and realizing that a grad program is a a real academic thing-a professional academic job almost--helped them finally get in. IT wasn't them, it was the app. The app didn't represent them and what they could do.

Those who got into no schools the first time around grew a lot during their time off. They will never take grad school for granted if they get in and know exactly what they want to do when they finally get in. If you are rejected from school across the board, my advice is to not let the depression get to you. Get help with apps, apply to a lot more schools, ask professors specific questions about what you can do to improve your app and try to ride out that miserable failure feel.

It's unfortunate that so many people really looked down on these people I know who didn't get into any schools. So many people-co-workers, friends, family, random people and in some cases GradCafe forum posters-- told them really negative things that decreased their self esteem. I think many people are just trying to help. They are probably saying "don't apply, you'll never get in if you haven't by now" because they don't want that person to be disappointed, but really, that is ineffective, at east in the cases I see. With the economy going haywire there are lots more applicants and grad programs and especailly PhD programs are harder to get into that ever (300 apply and 2 make it) come on, rejects all around are bound to happen with those stats.

Anyways, to summarize, those who were rejected across the bored fell into deep, miserable depression but never gave up and evntually succeeded. There are other ways to reach your goals with out going to grad school. Take your time, choose wisely and be positive.

[Anita]

Thanks everybody, especially sugarplumfilmmaker's very reassuring post

@socialpsych: I appreciate the suggestions - this is more helpful than everything I've gotten out of my advisor :| I did think of taking another stats class, but it'll have to be higher-level since my school (tiny elite LAC) doesn't seem to have a retake policy. And I don't see how a more advanced class like Probability will be useful, but am sure I won't enjoy it, so I'd rather not use my very last elective on that. I'd be very happy to teach myself stats with a textbook all over again, but it's not the sort of stuff schools can see on a transcript. I guess I need a trip to the career center for this.

The field of psychology in my home country is kind of a joke. There's one journal that's supposedly peer-reviewed and a handful of researchers who don't seem capable of running stat tests. I can tell you more, but it'll quickly sound like another rant I suppose I can find an educational research institution that'll let me study motivation if I dig deep enough though.

The thing with finding RA jobs is that the lab you work for should study something you're actually interested in researching (right?) So just waiting for your department to drop you a lead won't work. I've tried asking a couple profs for pointers, but it seems they don't trade job opening info among themselves, so I guess it's down to contacting individual profs, distasteful as it might sound (but I'll check with someone in the know first! )

@sugarplumfilmmaker: that last part you said about being looked down on is so very true. In fact, it's my main concern right now. I don't think I can handle being around my more successful friends, my expectant family and everyone who had known me in a previous, more brilliant life. But then I don't know what I would do, put up with them like nothing happened, go into hiding and avoid interactions, or some other strategy? Am I overthinking things? That's why I'm so curious about what happens to across-the-board rejectees socially.

Edited January 4, 2010 by Anita

[swisnieski]

Are you sure social psych is the most competitive subfield? I was under the impression clinical was. Although given how few of the psych departments I've looked at have respectably-sized social psych components (almost everything these days is cognitive), I could see how it would come a close second.

I'm still in the application process but I'm now anticipating across-the-board rejections, partly because I didn't address fit very well and partly because I cut back the number of schools I applied to (from 9 schools to 5, leaving pretty much solely top-tier schools) because of too little money. But I'm not thinking it's all bad. I would actually like to just live and work for a year before rushing off to grad school. Although I'll probably still be devastated for a year.

[Anita]

Oh yeah, that's right. My bad. I kind of think of clinical as its own little thing, because it's the only subfield that's more practice- than research-oriented. But among research-based subfields, I believe social is hands-down most competitive, yes?

[fuzzylogician]

The thing with finding RA jobs is that the lab you work for should study something you're actually interested in researching (right?)

You're generally right, but don't constrain yourself too much. Generally:

Research experience in your intended subfield (I assume that's what you mean by "something you're actually interested in researching"[1])

trumps

Research experience in your general field

majorly trumps

No research experience.

What you mainly want to get from an RA position is hands-on experience in doing research in something similar to what you'd be doing in grad school, in order to show that you have the skills to do the projects you propose in your SOP; and preferably to get a strong LOR from your supervisor. If you can't find a position with a researcher who does exactly what you're interested in, you should definitely expand your search to other researchers and projects that will give you the experience you need.

[1] If you really mean a specific project, then you're aiming *way* too high.

[Dr._Robotnik's_Shadow]

@sugarplumfilmmaker: that last part you said about being looked down on is so very true. In fact, it's my main concern right now. I don't think I can handle being around my more successful friends, my expectant family and everyone who had known me in a previous, more brilliant life. But then I don't know what I would do, put up with them like nothing happened, go into hiding and avoid interactions, or some other strategy? Am I overthinking things? That's why I'm so curious about what happens to across-the-board rejectees socially.

Edited January 4, 2010 by sugarplumfilmmaker

[socialpsych]

Clinical can be research-oriented too. And yes, it is the most competitive area of psych for grad admissions -- more competitive than med school!

[katalytik]

Clinical can be research-oriented too. And yes, it is the most competitive area of psych for grad admissions -- more competitive than med school!

I disagree. Very few admissions processes are as painful as medical school admissions, and I do not think grad school admissions are harder. I have finished medical school in the US and am now going for a PhD in health policy.

[socialpsych]

I disagree. Very few admissions processes are as painful as medical school admissions, and I do not think grad school admissions are harder. I have finished medical school in the US and am now going for a PhD in health policy.

Shrug, okay. Back when I was considering going for a PhD in clinical psych, a bunch of people independently told me that it was "even harder to get in than med school." I think that's just a question of selectivity, not of the "painfulness" of the process, but you might still be right.

[Anita]

From the admission guide I read (link in my last post), even if you're trained to do research as well as practice, most people end up not doing much research anyhow. Hence "more research-based" as opposed to "less research-based".

Oh and SPFM (is it OK to abbreviate your name? ): that's an awesome post! If I do end up not getting in anywhere, I'll probably print it out and look at it every time I feel like punching innocent people who ask about my "graduation plans". Hell, I already need it right now What's with people who want to know what I'm up to after college? Have they never been in college themselves?

[modernity]

Many are also surprised to learn that 200 people apply and only about 2-12 are accepted (usually 2) for PhD programs at least. MA admissions accept a little more but not by much. Moreover, they are surprised to learn not every school offers a PhD in my field. There are only about 15 schools out of all the thousands of colleges in the US that offer a program like mine. Some of these schools aren't even a direct match. Most people are more familiar with undergrad admissions so they think I could go to any school.

Yes, this exactly. So many people are unfamiliar with the grad application process. You get a lot of blank stares. A lot of people think that if you want the degree, and you're reasonably intelligent you can just sign up for it and that's that. If you tell them the statistics, they're usually even more mind-boggled. I've also gotten the response "Can't you just get one online?" I'm going to try not to soap box too much here... but we do live in a very consumer-oriented society centered around immediate gratification, and at least here in the US one that believes if you just "pull yourself up by your bootstraps, you can do anything"... The reality is much different from this (so many variables to take into account), and the time line can be much longer than you had anticipated.

I didn't get in anywhere last year, but I didn't understand the grad application process as well as I should have. It's also tougher with the economy, and everything else going around - I think this also contributes to the "You're going back to school.....and for HOW long??" mentality a lot of people have.

As I said, I didn't get in anywhere- but I got an excellent job in the mean time that changed some aspects of what I wanted to do, gave me experience, and has hopefully made me more competitive this time around. In many ways, I am glad I didn't get in last year - the programs I am applying to this year are much more appealing to me, and are probably much better for me in the long run. It's not a death sentence to be rejected, I promise.

[hamster]

Clinical can be research-oriented too. And yes, it is the most competitive area of psych for grad admissions -- more competitive than med school!

my brother - who went to a highly ranked medical school- confirmed this.

[APHI224]

This is why I'm applying to 14-15 schools, I can't let this happen to me. It would be impossible for me to get a job in this economy and I don't know what I'd do with myself... I'm keeping my fingers crossed