Foreign Language Requirements

[xyellowconverse]

I'm not sure if anyone can help me with my current quandary but I figured it was best to at least make an attempt.

I'm a history major undergrad. I openly admit I'm a little clueless to the history graduate school hunt and prep. I'm looking to go into a PhD program for ancient history, most specifically ancient Mediterranean history. I know a lot of PhD programs have foreign language requirements stating you need to have a reading competency of at least Latin and Ancient Greek. Some of the schools have 2 - 3 years of Latin and Ancient Greek (and sometimes even a modern language like French or Italian) as an admission requirement.

So my question is: what is the expected way to obtain this foreign language skill? Is it an expectation that it'll be complete during undergraduate? I have trouble believing that undergrads are expected to have two years of Latin and Greek while completing a four year degree. Do history MA programs offer foreign language to help with these requirements? Are you supposed to take these languages outside a university environment?

Any information would be appreciated. Any personal experience with foreign language requirements or direction towards where I could find that information would be greatly appreciated.

- XYC

[Neist]

I'm no expert, but I'll take a swing.

1. I don't think they care too much how you've acquired it, assuming you're at least somewhat literate with it. I'm sure this varies with program. My program certainly doesn't care unless as long as you can demonstrate proficiency at the level that they expect.
2. I'm not sure if it's expected, but it's desirable because it can be difficult to shove intensive language study into a graduate semester.
3. I'm not sure about offering languages, but some universities will waive the tuition requirements of foreign language study if it's relevant to your degree. Meaning, you might be able to take undergraduate language classes for little to nothing.
4. I don't think they necessarily care, but I could be wrong. A person might be a self-trained polyglot, and I'm guessing that it'd be perfectly acceptable.

I hope someone corrects me if I'm incorrect on any point.  

[TMP]

Don't forget to ask your own professors They'll be the ones writing your letters, after all.

[knp]

I'm rather negative on classics, so I hope my tone doesn't come across too harsh, but: the majority of classicists, including ancient historians, will have gone to high schools that had enough educational capital to offer significant Latin, or even Greek. It's one of my big problems with the field, which I have left. Exceptional high schools aside, the other common path for people entering PhD programs in ancient history is to have done an undergrad in classics itself, with a focus on either history or literature, and then to have switched over/switched back to history. At my undergrad, for example, if you did a classics major in a history or literature track (I'm not sure whether we had archaeology or art history classics tracks), that required three years of your major language and two of the other one, so that got you pretty close to the required PhD level.

What year are you in undergrad? Can you try to switch over to get a joint major in classics, or a minor? The requirements go down a lot easier if they're helping you graduate, not holding you back. If you're close to done or end up finishing in a place where you need a master's degree, I would recommend seeing if you can find a classics or joint history/classics master's, not one in just history. You want a good chunk of your master's time, should you choose to go that route, to be devoted to taking classical language classes. For master's programs, funding comes above all, but a history master's degree with a classical focus will not help you get a competitive classics or classical history PhD admission if you graduate still doing all your research from works in translation.

[bigbangdeux]

12 hours ago, knp said:

 

I'm rather negative on classics, so I hope my tone doesn't come across too harsh, but: the majority of classicists, including ancient historians, will have gone to high schools that had enough educational capital to offer significant Latin, or even Greek.

 

This is super true! When I was graduated and spoke to my classics professors they all spoke about the high level of expectations for languages (and that with three years of Ancient Greek and two of Latin already under my belt), so I understand the frustration. Another option for you in you can swing it financially (and that my classics professors recommended to me when I was still considering it) that hasn't been mentioned is looking into a year long post-bac classics program. I had a friend who was a late comer to the classics program and while he had a lot of Latin he wasn't there with his Ancient Greek and so he did one of these programs (I think maybe at upenn but I could be wrong) to beef up his languages and this year he started the classics phd program at UT. Granted I know this isn't representative of all experiences and since you are looking to go into history and not classics there are differences, but if you are worried about languages it might be something worth looking into. 

[dr. t]

On 9/21/2016 at 5:31 PM, xyellowconverse said:

I know a lot of PhD programs have foreign language requirements stating you need to have a reading competency of at least Latin and Ancient Greek. Some of the schools have 2 - 3 years of Latin and Ancient Greek (and sometimes even a modern language like French or Italian) as an admission requirement.

So my question is: what is the expected way to obtain this foreign language skill? Is it an expectation that it'll be complete during undergraduate? I have trouble believing that undergrads are expected to have two years of Latin and Greek while completing a four year degree. Do history MA programs offer foreign language to help with these requirements? Are you supposed to take these languages outside a university environment?

I went to one of those high schools @knp mentioned - I was required to take 4 years of Latin or Greek. I chose Latin. At the time of my application, I'd taken another 4 years in my undergraduate and 2 in my MA. And this is all for a medieval history PhD. I also picked up a reading competency in French, Spanish, and German in ugrad, and I was far from an exceptional candidate. Even if you meet the minimum requirements, remember that they're just that - minimums. Most of the people you'll be competing against will far exceed them. 

So what do you do? Much of that depends on where you are in your program. If you're a Junior or Senior, I'm sorry to say the ship has pretty much sailed. Unless you're a savant, you don't have the time or the credits to acquire anything beyond a rudimentary understanding of the language, and MA programs are places to refine, not acquire, these sorts of language skills. You may be able to get an offer from a low-ranked school, but given the particularly poor state of the job market in this subfield, I could not in good conscience recommend you take it.

If you're a Freshman or Sophomore, you may still have some time, but language needs to go at the top of your priority list. You're going to have to show that you make up in quality of knowledge what you lack in duration of study. You should aim to have a writing sample that makes extensive use of close analysis of primary source texts in the original language, and at least be able to cite secondary literature in one or two non-English languages. If you end up doing an MA, make sure that you take any proficiency tests your school offers. If you can get a LOR writer to gush about your Latin and Greek skills, do that.

Good luck.

Edited September 23, 2016 by telkanuru

[SG_SC]

On September 21, 2016 at 5:31 PM, xyellowconverse said:

I'm not sure if anyone can help me with my current quandary but I figured it was best to at least make an attempt.

I'm a history major undergrad. I openly admit I'm a little clueless to the history graduate school hunt and prep. I'm looking to go into a PhD program for ancient history, most specifically ancient Mediterranean history. I know a lot of PhD programs have foreign language requirements stating you need to have a reading competency of at least Latin and Ancient Greek. Some of the schools have 2 - 3 years of Latin and Ancient Greek (and sometimes even a modern language like French or Italian) as an admission requirement.

So my question is: what is the expected way to obtain this foreign language skill? Is it an expectation that it'll be complete during undergraduate? I have trouble believing that undergrads are expected to have two years of Latin and Greek while completing a four year degree. Do history MA programs offer foreign language to help with these requirements? Are you supposed to take these languages outside a university environment?

Any information would be appreciated. Any personal experience with foreign language requirements or direction towards where I could find that information would be greatly appreciated.

- XYC

A lot will depend upon what you're planning to study. If your area of interest is in Ancient Med, then a working knowledge of Latin and Greek should be totally fine. You may be asked to learn another language within your program, depending upon what you study (Hebrew, Akkadian, or Syriac).  Even if they're asking you to learn a modern language (German being most likely in your case), you probably won't have to worry about it for admissions. Most programs don't make you take language proficiency exams until the third year of your program when you're taking the Qualifying Exams to begin the dissertation process. 

[AP]

The classicists in my department all came in with a Master's so I think all of them earned their language requirements there. We have to comply with language requirements during our first two years and it depends by caucus how you achieve that. For example, the East Asia historians usually come in with either Japanese or Chinese and they take language courses in the other language. I know that classicists have not taken Latin or Greek while in coursework but they have taken summer courses elsewhere in paleography and the like. Another friend that focuses on African History has studied Swahili through FLAS during the summers and another East African language through independent study during coursework.

As you can see, there are many ways to achieve those requirements and by "requirements" I mean what ever each department means. These can vary from place to place so be aware of that as well. For some, reading competency in one language when you apply is more than enough. I echo the suggestion of asking your professors on how to plan ahead this requirement.

[Calgacus]

On September 21, 2016 at 5:31 PM, xyellowconverse said:

So my question is: what is the expected way to obtain this foreign language skill? Is it an expectation that it'll be complete during undergraduate? I have trouble believing that undergrads are expected to have two years of Latin and Greek while completing a four year degree. 

Actually, this is precisely the expectation, and the norm. Though I ended up not being a Classicist, I double majored in Classics and History as an undergrad. Any student looking to do a PhD on the Ancient world (whether in a History department or a more interdisciplinary Classics department) would almost certainly have at least an intermediate proficiency in both Latin and Greek before they enter the program. As @telkanuru mentioned, most of these students will have started languages in high school, but some will have picked them up in undergrad. I second the advice that if you are a freshman or sophomore and this is really the path you want, then double down on the language classes right away and make them a priority. The great thing about Latin and Greek courses is that in order to learn the languages, you'll end up reading a lot of historical and literary sources from that era, so you'll be both developing the necessary language skills and expanding your exposure to the history and culture of that era. It's very different than a modern language class, which is aimed much more at being able to use it in contemporary society (i.e., you'll almost definitely read Cicero and Sophocles in your Classical language courses, but you most likely would not read Dumas or "Song of Roland" in a traditional French language class). You may be able to find some MA programs in Classics that would help you make up ground on the languages, but I'm not not sure many would be funded. Good luck!

[rising_star]

On 9/21/2016 at 5:31 PM, xyellowconverse said:

ISo my question is: what is the expected way to obtain this foreign language skill? Is it an expectation that it'll be complete during undergraduate? I have trouble believing that undergrads are expected to have two years of Latin and Greek while completing a four year degree.

Why do you think it doesn't seem reasonable to take four years of language courses during a four year degree? To me, this doesn't seem that burdensome at all (though I'm also a person who enjoys learning new languages). If it's about scheduling, it's important to recognize that scheduling becomes more difficult, not less, once you're in graduate school and have 3 hour seminars to contend with. 

[pro Augustis]

As @telkanuru said, it really depends where you are in your undergraduate career. It is possible to make the switch, but it gets harder (and more costly) with each passing year. I discovered that ancient history was something that I really wanted to pursue toward the end of my sophomore year, at which point the languages had to become a serious priority. Summer courses are what can save you—CUNY, Columbia, Texas, and doubtless others offer intensive programs that cover introductory and intermediate Latin and Greek. I did one before my Junior year and one before my Senior. Once you've done those summer courses, you need to be taking courses in that language every year. As @Calgacus pointed out, these are not just hoops to jump through but also chances to learn more about the ancient world through in-depth examination of a particular source. In my case, once I graduated from my undergrad my language background was still a bit low, so I did a post-bac and then applied. I got into all the MAs I applied to and some of the PhDs, so it is possible.

Admittedly, my path was more toward ancient history within a classics department than within a history department, but the broad trends still hold. Most of the elite history departments will have roughly the same language requirements as classics ones. Moreover, I have been told by several professors that the greater flexibility in preparing for some history departments is largely illusory: sure, X Latin classes are not specified as they would be in Classics, but if you do not take roughly that number and get your language skills up you either won't be admitted or will be unable to keep up once there. 

One final thought: one of my undergraduate professors came to the languages late and did a masters in religious studies, where he could get funding without any language background, while he developed his languages. This of course only works if your interests have enough of a religion component to be viable in such a department, but it is still something to consider.

Best of luck with it all, and do let me know if there is anything else about the languages or ancient history more broadly that I can help with.

Edited September 25, 2016 by pro Augustis