applying as a slightly older student

[hector549]

I'm a slightly older student, nearly 30 (just turned 29), who finished up my undergraduate degree about two and a half years ago. I'm applying for the first time, and I'm curious about others who might be applying in their late 20's, early 30's, or later. If you are an older student, what are your concerns about applying now? Do you think programs look upon applying a bit later with a slight skepticism? Or, perhaps, they view it as a potential advantage (an older student may have a more established work ethic, etc). Obviously, there are other investments involved, like opportunity cost, and so on, that change with age. I've found a few blogs that have explored this a bit. I have my own thoughts, but I'm interested to hear what others on this forum in this circumstance might be thinking about.

[jeanetics17]

I think there is a growing consensus that being older or having delayed the time between college and grad school is a good thing. They know that you'll likely be wiser, more experienced, and more assured of yourself and your plans.

[avflinsch]

8 hours ago, jkm871 said:

I'm a slightly older student, nearly 30 (just turned 29), who finished up my undergraduate degree about two and a half years ago. I'm applying for the first time, and I'm curious about others who might be applying in their late 20's, early 30's, or later. If you are an older student, what are your concerns about applying now? Do you think programs look upon applying a bit later with a slight skepticism? Or, perhaps, they view it as a potential advantage (an older student may have a more established work ethic, etc). Obviously, there are other investments involved, like opportunity cost, and so on, that change with age. I've found a few blogs that have explored this a bit. I have my own thoughts, but I'm interested to hear what others on this forum in this circumstance might be thinking about.

Is this for a PhD or Masters?

I will be 55 when I finish my my Masters in May, and will be clicking the final submit button for a PhD application over the weekend. Now, my situation is somewhat different as the PhD program I am applying to requires a specific masters in order to apply, so the average age in the program would be somewhat higher than usual (I know several PhD students in their mid 40s to late 50s, and at least one in their early 60s)

I think your points are valid, the older applicants have a slight advantage with regards to experience, and established work ethic, along with a greater tolerance for bureaucratic BS. At the same time they also have the disadvantage of a shorter lifespan (and potential to contribute) after completion.

This is most likely field dependent, but at age 30, you aren't all that much older than a typical grad student.

 

[hector549]

 

1 hour ago, avflinsch said:

Is this for a PhD or Masters?

I will be 55 when I finish my my Masters in May, and will be clicking the final submit button for a PhD application over the weekend. Now, my situation is somewhat different as the PhD program I am applying to requires a specific masters in order to apply, so the average age in the program would be somewhat higher than usual (I know several PhD students in their mid 40s to late 50s, and at least one in their early 60s)

I think your points are valid, the older applicants have a slight advantage with regards to experience, and established work ethic, along with a greater tolerance for bureaucratic BS. At the same time they also have the disadvantage of a shorter lifespan (and potential to contribute) after completion.

This is most likely field dependent, but at age 30, you aren't all that much older than a typical grad student.

 

You have some good points, and I do think that the concerns of someone such as myself will be quite different from someone in their 30's, 40's, 50's, or 60's. For example, one of the things I've thought of is whether I'll connect as well with people in my cohort if they're  5-7 years younger than me. This may or may not have as much relevance for an older person.

Certainly, it is field-specific to some degree. This is the philosophy  forum, and the job market for philosophy PhD's (or MA's) isn't exactly hot. For someone younger, this may not be such an issue if they're finishing their degree in their late 20s. There's more time for reinvention if need be. Then again, maybe not finding exactly the right job is easier for an older person to do if she or he has already developed other skills. For example, I have some programming skills, I've worked as a fine dining waiter, a youth mentor, etc. Having a fallback skill or three is always a good thing. And I'm pursuing the degree because I think it has intrinsic value, not only because of the vocation. Age may have some influence in that sense for me as well.

A lot of people on this forum are concerned with admissions and other related questions right now (myself included), I've been thinking of what it might feel like if I don't get accepted to the programs to which I'm applying this year. Waiting a year and strengthening my application can be done if necessary, but I feel as if I'm more aware of the clock when I think about that possibility than perhaps I would've been in the past. I meant to ask this question to folks applying to MA programs and doctoral programs. I'm applying to both, and this is a consideration as well--pursuing a MA first will likely extend the time to completion of a doctorate (my goal).

Then again, maybe there's no need to be overly concerned about some of these things since, @avflinsch , you and others are pursuing a doctorate at a much later age than me. I do think that's admirable! I suspect it's at least somewhat common. This is anecdotal, but I know a few older people who are working on their doctorates right now. One, a good friend, is ABD and he's 36. The other two are both in philosophy PhD programs in their 40s and 60s respectively.

[xypathos]

I'm applying across fields (Theology, Religious Studies, and History) but am in a similar boat - I'll be 32 before any potential PhD school year starts and likely looking at being mid to late-30s before I ever hit the job market. I'm certainly nervous about any potential job market I'll hit and of course the dread of the reality that I might not get accepted anywhere. Fortunately I will have the slight cushion of being an ordained Episcopal priest but even that in these times doesn't guarantee me anything!

I did an M* in Theology and was older than most of my classmates and younger than quite a few. I'm worried that this will continue for my PhD (or that I'll be on the upper end of the spectrum) but will have to just work that much harder to establish those friendships.

[TK2]

Eek, we're 'older' now? I'm turning 30 in a few months and still deep in my MA, applying for PhDs. I'm in a country where the former is average, and in a field where the latter is also average (an MA and a few years of professional experience expected for PhD applications) so from what i've heard from friends in the US, 30 doesn't make me unusual. That said, fields where the US system is to go straight from undergrad to PhD, yeah, I don't know how I'd feel about being with 22 year olds at this point...I wasn't even in undergrad when I was 22. On the other hand...what's the alternative? Don't go? Someone has to blaze that trail, and the stats are that the entire student body in the US is shifting anyway. As someone a bit older, your social circle doesn't have to be all there, all the time.

[Schopenhauerfanboy]

17 hours ago, jkm871 said:

I'm a slightly older student, nearly 30 (just turned 29), who finished up my undergraduate degree about two and a half years ago. I'm applying for the first time, and I'm curious about others who might be applying in their late 20's, early 30's, or later. If you are an older student, what are your concerns about applying now? Do you think programs look upon applying a bit later with a slight skepticism? Or, perhaps, they view it as a potential advantage (an older student may have a more established work ethic, etc). Obviously, there are other investments involved, like opportunity cost, and so on, that change with age. I've found a few blogs that have explored this a bit. I have my own thoughts, but I'm interested to hear what others on this forum in this circumstance might be thinking about.

From my experience, you're closer to the average age than you might think. In my M.A. program, we had multiple students in their mid-thirties and even one in his fifties. The grad program was very understanding of their situations (many had kids, other obligations) and always accommodated any irregularities caused by those obligations (e.g. extended deadline because of family problems, etc).

However, many professors have mentioned to me that students who took longer to complete their programs (in the absence of extenuating circumstances) are viewed less favourably. For instance, someone who had no significant obligations outside school, but who took closely to 6 years to finish an undergraduate. Timely records of completion are important, for they demonstrate skills important for success in graduate school (e.g. time management, ability to handle demanding workload, etc). 

[Bryterlayter]

There are plenty of reasons to reject people over 35, probably just as many as their are (different) reasons to accept a 22 year old. But you can't change any of it so don't sweat it.

 

I do agree with the other posters, late 20's/early 30's is normal for a Phd program. At my undergrad, the youngest grad student was 24 when he started and he was the youngest until he was 27 and a 26 year old entered.

Edited December 16, 2016 by Bryterlayter
Clarity

[mano]

12 hours ago, Bryterlayter said:

There are plenty of reasons to reject people over 35, probably just as many as their are (different) reasons to accept a 22 year old. But you can't change any of it so don't sweat it.

 

I do agree with the other posters, late 20's/early 30's is normal for a Phd program. At my undergrad, the youngest grad student was 24 when he started and he was the youngest until he was 27 and a 26 year old entered.

What are those reasons? I am just curious. 

[xypathos]

8 minutes ago, mano said:

What are those reasons? I am just curious. 

The big one that I've heard just by several Adcoms is that the older you get, the harder it is to do a PhD. Though I imagine it's more of a societal pressure thing than anything - expectations of marriage, children, needing a solid salary to support said family, justifying being 30+ and still in school, etc.

I've heard anecdotal evidence of Adcoms doing some age discrimination, arguing that the applicants will find it harder to get a TT job as an older graduate, thus hurting their placement records. Sort of an, "all things equal, they'll take a a 22 year old over a 32." That said, I think we're all much more likely to face that kind of discrimination by hiring committees than anyone.

[t_ruth]

I'm on the other side of this, having finished my PhD a few years ago. I was 30 when I started. My cohort of 16 was bimodal (four were 26 and four were 45), with the range from 21-45. I'm in a field where the average age of entering students tends to be older though. We were all very close, and I felt the friendships were driven less by age than by approach to the program (time dedicated, etc.).

I agree that age can be an advantage--I was very serious about research and more organized than some of my younger classmates. However, some of the older students struggled with adjusting to a new way of working and/or hadn't taken stats in a long time, so that was more problematic. Because you are coming more recently out of undergrad, your experience may be different than mine at the same age: I had a decade of post-undergrad experience before starting. All of this is just speculation of course and mostly to say there is a range of experiences owing to field, program, individual characteristics and the interaction between these

Regarding hiring age discrimination, the fact that I had a career before my PhD I think actually helped me on the market, but again, my field skews older for PhDs.

[Duns Eith]

20 hours ago, Schopenhauerfanboy said:

From my experience, you're closer to the average age than you might think. In my M.A. program, we had multiple students in their mid-thirties and even one in his fifties. The grad program was very understanding of their situations (many had kids, other obligations) and always accommodated any irregularities caused by those obligations (e.g. extended deadline because of family problems, etc).

This.

Completing your PhD in your 30s, whether you're 31 or 39, is very common. Take heart. Some of your peers will have kids already. (One grad student from the prior cohort had 2 kids in elementary; one grad student this cohort is older than all of the instructors/professors here except 3 or maybe 4.)

[Bryterlayter]

7 hours ago, mano said:

What are those reasons? I am just curious. 

Some of the reasons that could be considered for rejecting older students from graduate school:

1. Why is the student trying to change fields? (Eg the concerns of what happened in their previous field that made them leave)

2. Older students might have a hard time finding a job later. Universities may be reluctant to hire someone who is 55 when they will want to retire at 75 when they can hire someone who is in their 30's or 40's. This goes back to deciding to allow those students into their graduate programs: If they take on a lot of older graduate students and they can't find jobs in academia, this affects the university's placement record. One related concern I've heard is that some universities don't want to hire older candidates because they are starting in the field late and have less time to contribute.

3. Like xypathos mentioned, life tends to get in the way for older students more than it does for younger students. Of course, anyone can have health problems but the chance that someone older will have them and miss classes/drop out is greater, or that they'll drop out of the program to start a family (which a 22 year old likely wouldn't do). Most of the young grad students don't have established families, whereas many of the older students already do.

4. For people who took big breaks between their undergrad and grad school, they might be rusty and not remember as much as someone who is fresh out of their undergrad, or maybe they don't understand the academic culture anymore.

5. For smaller universities, an older graduate student might find it hard to relate to the younger graduate students, leaving them excluded.

6. What I've seen a few times: The older students think that their experience of just being older makes up for a lack of actual experience in the field. So a 23 year old could have studied philosophy for 4 years and published a paper, whereas a student in their late 30s took fewer classes in philosophy and didn't publish, but thinks that their maturity makes up the difference.

Others might be able to suggest other reasons, those were just the ones I thought of off the top of my head. (Also just missed the typo in my original post! Whoops, I edited it a few times and missed it)

[avflinsch]

On 12/16/2016 at 9:01 PM, Bryterlayter said:

1. Why is the student trying to change fields? (Eg the concerns of what happened in their previous field that made them leave)

2. Older students might have a hard time finding a job later. Universities may be reluctant to hire someone who is 55 when they will want to retire at 75 when they can hire someone who is in their 30's or 40's. This goes back to deciding to allow those students into their graduate programs: If they take on a lot of older graduate students and they can't find jobs in academia, this affects the university's placement record. One related concern I've heard is that some universities don't want to hire older candidates because they are starting in the field late and have less time to contribute.

3. Like xypathos mentioned, life tends to get in the way for older students more than it does for younger students. Of course, anyone can have health problems but the chance that someone older will have them and miss classes/drop out is greater, or that they'll drop out of the program to start a family (which a 22 year old likely wouldn't do). Most of the young grad students don't have established families, whereas many of the older students already do.

4. For people who took big breaks between their undergrad and grad school, they might be rusty and not remember as much as someone who is fresh out of their undergrad, or maybe they don't understand the academic culture anymore.

5. For smaller universities, an older graduate student might find it hard to relate to the younger graduate students, leaving them excluded.

6. What I've seen a few times: The older students think that their experience of just being older makes up for a lack of actual experience in the field. So a 23 year old could have studied philosophy for 4 years and published a paper, whereas a student in their late 30s took fewer classes in philosophy and didn't publish, but thinks that their maturity makes up the difference.

I am in a completely different field, and am following this thread because older is still older. My comments are based on my experiences (currently in a masters program with many professional years in a tangentially related area, and currently applying to a PhD program, I also did not finish my undergrad until I was 52).

#1 - Usually shifting interests, but it may really depend on how far apart the fields really are. A shift between mathematics and computer science is very different from a shift from biology to philosophy. In my case the progression from undergrad -> Masters -> PhD aspiration is definitely related.

#2 - Unfortunately age discrimination is a very real thing. I think the age difference may make a bigger difference in a PhD program than a Masters program, especially with regards to the 'time to contribute' factor.

#3 - I think that this may have more to do with exactly how old is considered 'older'. At 55, the health concern is probably a bigger issue for me than dropping out to start a family (already have one in my case).

#4 - Again, probably a big difference between a PhD and Masters. An older student going for a professional Masters might actually have an edge over a younger student. I really do not think it has much to do with the size of the school.

#5 - Interesting comment. In my case I did find it difficult to relate to some of the younger students when it came to personal things, in the classroom there was no issue. On the other hand, spending time with the younger students did make it easier to understand things that my daughter was going thru (she is also in grad school, but a very different area from me).

#6 - I will agree that maturity is not a substitute for experience, but it does give you a different viewpoint. It also gives you a bit more tolerance for the bureaucratic BS endemic to academia.

 

 

[EvelynD]

I'm going to be 30 if I get accepted this cycle (first try). I'm 'old' because I have 2 BA degrees and a research master degree which took me about 10 years in total to get. There will be a 2 year gap between my RMA graduation (2015) and (hopefully) the start of my PhD but I'm actually quite happy about it. I've been working in various industries (although mostly in customer service) which confirmed to me that I want to work in academia and not in a commerical environment. I miss the research and I'm bored. Second, I've had the time to think about what I've studied in the past and what I want to do for my PhD. I loved my RMA research but I had so many doubts if it was something that could provide me with a career in and out academia. On this message board I came across human-animal studies and after doing a lot of reading I found myself coming up with research idea after research idea! This only assures me that I'm in the right place now, and i'm 100% sure I want to do this for the right reasons.

[Bryterlayter]

I should clarify and make sure it is understood: I'm not saying they are good reasons to reject someone, xypathos just asked for a few reasons and I listed some that I thought of or had heard of in the past. There are plenty of reasons that go against them (like avflinsch mentioned), though I would argue that the chance of an older student being accepted into a graduate program for Data Science or something in the professional world (ie not teaching in a university) is much, much higher than in philosophy or programs where the goal is usually teaching at a university.

[ashny]

On 12/15/2016 at 0:01 AM, jkm871 said:

I'm a slightly older student, nearly 30 (just turned 29), who finished up my undergraduate degree about two and a half years ago. I'm applying for the first time, and I'm curious about others who might be applying in their late 20's, early 30's, or later. If you are an older student, what are your concerns about applying now? Do you think programs look upon applying a bit later with a slight skepticism? Or, perhaps, they view it as a potential advantage (an older student may have a more established work ethic, etc). Obviously, there are other investments involved, like opportunity cost, and so on, that change with age. I've found a few blogs that have explored this a bit. I have my own thoughts, but I'm interested to hear what others on this forum in this circumstance might be thinking about.

Im applying to a different field but had one university say that provided the scores are met, they would welcome an older applicant as it adds to the diversity of students in their program