Professors who pull you down

[DeWinter]

I'm wondering if anyone else has come across that professor (who barely knows you) who tries to tell the students in the department to not apply to top 75 programs and tries to de-motivate them, rather than motivating them. I mean, I know average GRE scores don't automatically discredit you from getting in (I'm in the liberal sciences) but I feel that despite some weaknesses of the student, professors should motivate students and tell them that it's worth a shot applying to schools.

What's wrong with applying in the top 30's or 40's or 50's? I was told that these were "top tier" and that I should look at lower level schools. That it's going to be tough to get in. All based on my GRE scores!I'm coming across more and more professors who seem to pull you down, instead of making you feel hopeful. I hated the GRE with a passion and I'm just not good with these kinds of tests. It doesn't mean I'm stupid in any way! Not every professor is like this but I feel that students shouldn't be told that they can't get in anywhere because they have an average GRE score especially after they've applied. It's so demotivating! Anyone else have thoughts, inputs?

It is a dream to get into a not a top ranked school but a good school who is respected with average GRE scores but good grades, strong statement of purpose, etc.?

Edited January 21, 2010 by karakiz

[DeWinter]

I'm wondering if anyone else has come across that professor (who barely knows you) who tries to tell the students in the department to not apply to top 75 programs and tries to de-motivate them, rather than motivating them. I mean, I know average GRE scores don't automatically disqualify you from getting in but I feel that despite some weaknesses of the student, professors should motivate students and tell them that it's worth a shot applying to schools.

What's wrong with applying in the top 30's or 40's or 50's? I was told that these were "top tier" and that I should look at lower level schools. All based on my GRE scores!I'm coming across more and more professors who seem to pull you down, instead of making you feel hopeful. I hated the GRE with a passion and I'm just not good with these kinds of tests. It doesn't mean I'm stupid in any way! Not every professor is like this but I feel that students shouldn't be told that they can't get in anywhere because they have an average GRE score especially after they've applied. It's so demotivating! Anyone else have thoughts, inputs?

[hubris]

Sure, if there was no cost to apply (time or otherwise), but there is and managing expectations is not a bad thing.

[JerryLandis]

Why are you talking to this person about applications if they don't know anything about you except for GRE scores? I'd suggest speaking to someone who knows you a bit better and who has a better idea where you'd fit in. Generally speaking, when I've spoken to professors I didn't know well, or didn't know at all, about applying to grad school, they have spoken to me like I'm some complete idiot who will never get in anywhere. The only reason I talked to these people was that someone introduced me to them at a department event and mentioned that I was working on applications. I think that professors are just used to talking down to people, and to dealing with students with unrealistic expectations about their academic futures. Whether or not you an I are those kinds of students, professors who don't know us well will naturally assume that we are, and that we need to lower our expectations for our own sakes. I don't know if it's just me, but generally whenever I meet professors they always assume that I'm a complete idiot until I hand in my first piece of work.

[DeWinter]

Why are you talking to this person about applications if they don't know anything about you except for GRE scores? I'd suggest speaking to someone who knows you a bit better and who has a better idea where you'd fit in. Generally speaking, when I've spoken to professors I didn't know well, or didn't know at all, about applying to grad school, they have spoken to me like I'm some complete idiot who will never get in anywhere. The only reason I talked to these people was that someone introduced me to them at a department event and mentioned that I was working on applications. I think that professors are just used to talking down to people, and to dealing with students with unrealistic expectations about their academic futures. Whether or not you an I are those kinds of students, professors who don't know us well will naturally assume that we are, and that we need to lower our expectations for our own sakes. I don't know if it's just me, but generally whenever I meet professors they always assume that I'm a complete idiot until I hand in my first piece of work.

Unfortunately, she's my graduate chair and she has not really been involved with anything that I have done. I've just taken a breezy course where she just tells you what to do in graduate school (when to apply, how to get committees together). It was mostly just her talking. Other than that, she's just been out of the loop. I had to talk to her because she asked where I was applying. I even told her that I'd be talking to a department chair of one of the schools that i was applying and she blew it off like it was nothing. She's been saying "don't apply to top programs" to everyone in the department. I don't know if it's just me but I don't believe it's the best approach for motivating students.

I mean, I've talked to professors at most departments I'm applying to and they've been quite interested. She said "it'll be tough getting into these schools even with the letters of recommendations". Kinda shocked me. These are not top 10 or 20. It's more like the top 30's, 40's and 50's in ranking.

Edited January 21, 2010 by karakiz

[whereiscarmen]

I wouldn't ask teachers who put me down for recommendations. In fact, I keep distance between them..and apply to a variety level of schools just to be safer.

[hopefulJ2010]

I'm wondering if anyone else has come across that professor (who barely knows you) who tries to tell the students in the department to not apply to top 75 programs and tries to de-motivate them, rather than motivating them. I mean, I know average GRE scores don't automatically disqualify you from getting in but I feel that despite some weaknesses of the student, professors should motivate students and tell them that it's worth a shot applying to schools.

What's wrong with applying in the top 30's or 40's or 50's? I was told that these were "top tier" and that I should look at lower level schools. All based on my GRE scores!I'm coming across more and more professors who seem to pull you down, instead of making you feel hopeful. I hated the GRE with a passion and I'm just not good with these kinds of tests. It doesn't mean I'm stupid in any way! Not every professor is like this but I feel that students shouldn't be told that they can't get in anywhere because they have an average GRE score especially after they've applied. It's so demotivating! Anyone else have thoughts, inputs?

i'm not in your field but i have a professor at my school which is a decently respected mid-size university, who has his BA from oxford and phd from harvard. he's not even in my department, doesn't know much about me despite my high 3.94 gpa and my gre scores which were over 1350 and told me that often students from our school don't have the mojo to compete with students at top tier schools in graduate programs who went to top bachelors programs and therefore are used to competing amongst the top competitors. umm, okay?

[DeWinter]

i'm not in your field but i have a professor at my school which is a decently respected mid-size university, who has his BA from oxford and phd from harvard. he's not even in my department, doesn't know much about me despite my high 3.94 gpa and my gre scores which were over 1350 and told me that often students from our school don't have the mojo to compete with students at top tier schools in graduate programs who went to top bachelors programs and therefore are used to competing amongst the top competitors. umm, okay?

Agh, the frustration. I wonder if professors would just be a little more positive. Maybe I'm too sensitive for grad school. It's like ruthless, at times.

[jacib]

Unfortunately, she's my graduate chair and she has not really been involved with anything that I have done. I've just taken a breezy course where she just tells you what to do in graduate school (when to apply, how to get committees together). It was mostly just her talking. Other than that, she's just been out of the loop. I had to talk to her because she asked where I was applying. I even told her that I'd be talking to a department chair of one of the schools that i was applying and she blew it off like it was nothing. She's been saying "don't apply to top programs" to everyone in the department. I don't know if it's just me but I don't believe it's the best approach for motivating students.

I mean, I've talked to professors at most departments I'm applying to and they've been quite interested. She said "it'll be tough getting into these schools even with the letters of recommendations". Kinda shocked me. These are not top 10 or 20. It's more like the top 30's, 40's and 50's in ranking.

I mean it will be tough getting into those schools... there are no safety schools really at the graduate level. That said, it doesn't mean impossible. A lot of it depends on a ) what discipline you're in b ) how low your scores are c ) if you have anything to really differentiate you from your peers d ) masters or PhD. But that said, there I don't think many candidates should be out and out discouraged from applying anywhere in the top 50. I'd guess schools out of, say, the top 25 likely view applications more holistically, and while a low GRE could continue to be a black mark on your application, some programs, especially the smaller ones, prize fit above all else.

If she has been telling that to literally everyone, well she's probably just a jackass. It's hard for me to imagine a professor urging students to apply only out of the top 75 (where getting a professorship might be especially difficult, perhaps even at a 2 year school). That just doesn't strike me as reasonable advice.

Edited January 21, 2010 by jacib

[maximus82]

speaking of professors who pull you down, I think everyone should read this:

http://chronicle.com/article/Graduate-School-in-the/44846/

It's about graduate school in the humanities. Nonetheless, I think it applies to those of us interested in social sciences.

[DeWinter]

speaking of professors who pull you down, I think everyone should read this:

http://chronicle.com...l-in-the/44846/

It's about graduate school in the humanities. Nonetheless, I think it applies to those of us interested in social sciences.

Wow, the icing on the cake.

More nervousness! More pressure! Yeay!

[peppermint.beatnik]

If she has been telling that to literally everyone, well she's probably just a jackass. It's hard for me to imagine a professor urging students to apply only out of the top 75 (where getting a professorship might be especially difficult, perhaps even at a 2 year school). That just doesn't strike me as reasonable advice.

I'd say it's this, or she is really concerned with placing students in graduate school, i.e., aim low and greater chance of acceptance. I think the advice rather strange, though.

[johndiligent]

Maybe it's my field, but I'd distrust any professor who didn't at least initially try to discourage a student from applying to grad school, no matter how strong the applicant.

[DeWinter]

Maybe it's my field, but I'd distrust any professor who didn't at least initially try to discourage a student from applying to grad school, no matter how strong the applicant.

Really? Why so?

[fuzzylogician]

Maybe it's my field, but I'd distrust any professor who didn't at least initially try to discourage a student from applying to grad school, no matter how strong the applicant.

I agree. As the saying goes, if you can see yourself doing anything other than grad school -- do that. The academic track can be grueling and unrewarding, and it's important to know the difficulties going in.

I believe in being realistic. The professor who encouraged the OP not to apply to any top 75 programs is definitely overdoing it, but it's important for a person to have someone tell them the cold hard facts, even if they're hard to hear. Better advice probably would have been to spread your bets -- don't apply only to top ranked schools, but also to lower ranked schools where your admissions chances are higher. In the specific case of the OP, though, I don't think the professor who gave you advice knew enough about your situation to give good advice; don't be discouraged by her.

[JohnBom]

I've had professors tell me that I should only apply to the very top because I would stay an adjunct till the rest of my life otherwise. I don't know if that is true, but I am definitely only shooting high. Might as well since it's so dang expensive.

Maybe he was just trying to figure out whether it would deter you. Kind of like the guy who wrote the article.

[taiwanadian]

I think it is unfortunate that professors would do such a thing

It makes me wonder if they regretted their own decisions to pursue careers in academia (referring to the article).. As for professors who put you down.. I don't even know what to say about that other than don't listen to them!

I think professors should advise students in the sense that maybe if their scores are not as strong and they may want to have backups, but they should never discourage a student from applying to the top schools.

I mean.. my GRE score's pretty average with a pretty disappointing verbal section (v560,q770), and my GPA is really average too.. but that hasn't deterred me from applying to the top schools in the field.. (and given my craziness, i applied only to the top schools.. even one of my LOR writers told me that).. so you definitely shouldn't listen to that professor, especially because he doesn't know you particularly well. If you're passionate about your studies and you're ready for graduate school.. I'm sure it will appear so on your SOP and other materials that are equally important

[maximus82]

I think it is unfortunate that professors would do such a thing

It makes me wonder if they regretted their own decisions to pursue careers in academia (referring to the article).. As for professors who put you down.. I don't even know what to say about that other than don't listen to them!

I think professors should advise students in the sense that maybe if their scores are not as strong and they may want to have backups, but they should never discourage a student from applying to the top schools.

I agree to a certain extent.

Most of us here, I assume, are really passionate about sociology and about becoming academics, otherwise we wouldn't spend so much time on message boards (when we could just be looking at lolcats or watching hulu, which is what I used to do with my free time before apps.) So we're not really representative of the general population. I'd like to believe that although there might be people who have a better GPA and a better GRE score than I do, they're not as passionate about sociology as I am. Thus, I'm better qualified to go to a top 10 program (if only adcoms looked at these forums).

Second. Let's be realistic. We're not going to grad school for the money. Personally, I am prepared to face the fact that when I finish my PhD I'll probably be making less money than what I make right now. So if someone here is applying to a PhD in sociology as a way of surviving the recession: STOP. seriously, the last thing we need is more people to compete with.

Finally, about professors giving negative feedback. Here's the thing: most people with a PhD lack social skills (prepare to be one of them). Seriously, most PhDs suck at communicating anything that's not related to their area of expertise. Think about it. You spend at least 5 years researching something and explaining it to everyone around you, you forget how to do anything else.

So don't let anyone tell you you're not good enough for a school! But at the same time, try to figure out if they're trying to tell you something. In my case, I took the whole "you're not good enough for a top ten program" and interpreted as a "hey, you might want to retake the GRE and this time study, and study hard" (I did, and i scored much higher the second time).

[coffeeandtoast]

To the OP: I agree with the PP that you shouldn't worry too much about what that professor said, especially if it is based on GRE scores alone. My husband had professors either telling him he was going to get everywhere (which was not helpful) and others telling him he wasn't going to get anywhere (which wasn't helpful either). At the end of the day, he applied to 22 schools for a PhD in philosophy and got accepted to half of them and waitlisted in a handful more. Most of the schools were in the top 30. He got into a top 15 school, which is the one he is attending now. One thing I learned from my husband's admission process last year is that there is no clear formula for getting in, especially in disciplines as competitive as philosophy for PhD applicants. He got waitlisted in a top 5 school, but then rejected at schools that were not even ranked. It is very hard to say. Just try to remain confident about yourself and do not doubt yourself over GRE scores. I think that is such a pointless test anyway! I'm an engineer and I struggled with the quantitative section. Spanish is my native language and I made a 610 in Verbal, which is in the 88th percentile. I mean, there is no clear formula for this. Don't stress about it and just try to distract yourself with something else, so you won't go crazy with the wait like some of us

[Lauren the Librarian]

I agree. As the saying goes, if you can see yourself doing anything other than grad school -- do that. The academic track can be grueling and unrewarding, and it's important to know the difficulties going in.

I believe in being realistic. The professor who encouraged the OP not to apply to any top 75 programs is definitely overdoing it, but it's important for a person to have someone tell them the cold hard facts, even if they're hard to hear. Better advice probably would have been to spread your bets -- don't apply only to top ranked schools, but also to lower ranked schools where your admissions chances are higher. In the specific case of the OP, though, I don't think the professor who gave you advice knew enough about your situation to give good advice; don't be discouraged by her.

I asked an unfamiliar community college professor (PhD) at the beginning of my career whether I should go for an anthropology PhD. He gave me the cold hard facts about PhDs in general and anthropology in particular. I was kinda shocked at first that he wasn't super supportive; I guess I thought teachers were supposed to be positive and uplifting. He didn't only say it would be rough and stressed that dedication and a love of it is necessary if I'd be successful-and realize that jobs are hard to come by. I thought about it over a few weeks and it only made me think more clearly about my goals. I still have anthro on my mind and I could very well do that for my PhD. We'll see what happens. I'm really thankful he said what he did. However, he probably knew what he was talking about.

I should give him a call and let him know I appreciated his help...

[DeWinter]

It really helps having fellow graduate students give their input. I'm feeling a bit better.

I'm quite upset because I was never good in standardized tests but I still got into a very good undergraduate program with a scholarship. I also am doing well in my masters (above 3.5) but I just can't seem to do well on this bloody test. I've taken it but goodness, it's so darn expensive! I'm quite weak in math but strong in verbal. My verbal score high in percentile as well as my AW, but my quant was extremely weak. I've had professors tell me that sociology mostly looks at verbal, but then I've heard all kinds of inputs.

I just refuse to kill the hope of getting into a program. As a poster said, I'm not in this for the money. I'm extremely passionate about my focus/thesis issue and I hope that departments will see that. I wish that the passion would count more than statistics.

[ScreamingHairyArmadillo]

My boyfriend is going into history, which obvious from the infamous Chronicle article, is an unsafe career move. His advisor met with him, told him all the reasons not to go to grad school...and finally gave him a ton of helpful advice once my bf convinced his advisor why he wanted to go.

[John_Duble_E]

Karakiz, though I'm an English major, I can relate to your plight. If possible, I like to use the negative or abusive statements that some professors spew as motivation to achieve my goals. When I first took the GRE, I made a 620 on the verbal, which I was pretty happy with since I'd been out of school for over a year. When I told my old advisor this, he recommended that I not hold my breath waiting to see if I could get into my first choice school. Alas, he was right at that point, but I did get into a school that offered me a non-teaching fellowship. At this school, I've learned a great deal and really focused my long term goals. I retook the GRE and made a 720 on the verbal. Now, I think I'm a much stronger candidate. Although, come about half way through February, we shall see.

Last semester, when I was gathering materials to to apply to PhD programs, I asked several professors within my subfield to write letters of recommendation for me. They were all more than happy to do so. Over the break I sent these profs all my materials (CV, Writing Sample, and SoP), and all but one responded. I sent another e-mail to this professor and still nothing. Finally when classes reconvened this semester I approached him. He said that he didn't receive any of my e-mails. So I resent my credentials and links to all the online LOR forms. I asked him the next week if he got my e-mail. He acted very bothered that I should even check, becoming short with me and brushing me off. So, I gave him some space. Well, the deadline for the schools that he was writing these letter for was Jan 15. On the 15th, I saw this professor, but I didn't want to annoy him any further, even though I hadn't received any confirmations saying he submitted even one letter. Finally, yesterday I approached him and told him that he didn't need to worry about submitting any of the letters. He asked me why, so I told him that my applications were all due last week, and not to worry about it because they were all complete. He became quiet, then profusely apologized for "fucking up;" after that, even though he knew that I'd already submitted my applications, he said that he saw some really obvious errors with my writing sample, and proceeded to tell me what they were. This was after two other professors went over the sample, and after a friend and I workshopped on more than one occasion. I'm not sure if this was to prove that he hadn't blown me off, or to hurt my feelings. Either way, I'm no longer going to take this professor.

Here's to not letting our dreams be dashed by the douche-y!

[DeWinter]

Karakiz, though I'm an English major, I can relate to your plight. If possible, I like to use the negative or abusive statements that some professors spew as motivation to achieve my goals. When I first took the GRE, I made a 620 on the verbal, which I was pretty happy with since I'd been out of school for over a year. When I told my old advisor this, he recommended that I not hold my breath waiting to see if I could get into my first choice school. Alas, he was right at that point, but I did get into a school that offered me a non-teaching fellowship. At this school, I've learned a great deal and really focused my long term goals. I retook the GRE and made a 720 on the verbal. Now, I think I'm a much stronger candidate. Although, come about half way through February, we shall see.

He asked me why, so I told him that my applications were all due last week, and not to worry about it because they were all complete. He became quiet, then profusely apologized for "fucking up;" after that, even though he knew that I'd already submitted my applications, he said that he saw some really obvious errors with my writing sample, and proceeded to tell me what they were. This was after two other professors went over the sample, and after a friend and I workshopped on more than one occasion. I'm not sure if this was to prove that he hadn't blown me off, or to hurt my feelings. Either way, I'm no longer going to take this professor.

Here's to not letting our dreams be dashed by the douche-y!

I feel you and I have gone through very similar situations. I am not at that point of the negative being motivation yet, since it happened recently, but slowly but surely, I've realized that I can't let some professors stop me. Maybe she felt like she was doing me a favor by trying to bring me down or she was more concerned with placing students into Phd programs. Either way, I still think it's absolutely negative. I knew that it would be tough getting in but not impossible. Yet, she rubbed me the wrong way. I forgot to add, she claimed that "it'll be tough getting in, even with your letters", which rubbed me the wrong way even more. I was thinking, does she know what other professors wrote on my LORs? I thought they were confidential? Any inputs?

As for your professor, he's totally at fault and probably was trying to save face. Either way, forget about him. Seems like we have to dodge shady or flaky professors in this obstacle course of grad school. I wish I could say more choice words because it stings like something else, but I think it makes us stronger in the end. Here, here!

Edited January 22, 2010 by karakiz

[DeWinter]

Can other professors who are not recommenders find out what LOR writers wrote for you in their letters? I was curious because the professor had something to the extent of "it'll be tough to get in, even with your letters". She was not a LOR writer. I was really shocked because I didn't know/didn't think that professors shared that kind of information with others. Or am I wrong?