Professors who pull you down

[herself the elf]

after that, even though he knew that I'd already submitted my applications, he said that he saw some really obvious errors with my writing sample, and proceeded to tell me what they were. This was after two other professors went over the sample, and after a friend and I workshopped on more than one occasion. I'm not sure if this was to prove that he hadn't blown me off, or to hurt my feelings. Either way, I'm no longer going to take this professor.

WOW! This goes way beyond 'PhDs lack social skills'-- this guys is a complete jerk. Who would do something like that, after the fact????

I had one undergrad professor repeatedly ignore me for requests for recommendations to grad school several years ago, despite the fact that I took three classes with her and got As in all of them. I wracked my brain for the reason; was it because she was in a particular area of study, and I did not fit into that demographic? But that thinking got me nowhere but angry, and later I realized it was probably because she was absent-minded when it came to paperwork.

I think professors first have a responsibility to be honest, both about their time and availability to write recommendations, but also about application prospects. Most of them have a lot more knowledge about all of this than any of us do. Nevertheless, they also have a responsibility in the professor-student relationship to foster a certain level of trust with their students and through it to encourage academic growth. Being a nasty jerk (like yours), delivering news particularly harshly, or putting down a particular applicant's school (as an earlier post said) is, in my opinion, a violation of this trust.

Many of the problems people are complaining about have to do with either the honesty issue or the trust issue; I think sometimes professors are so wrapped up in their research that these issues fall to the wayside. I hope that all of us (myself included) have the wherewithal in 10 years to be able to take these responsibilities as seriously as we take them now.

[fuzzylogician]

Can other professors who are not recommenders find out what LOR writers wrote for you in their letters? I was curious because the professor had something to the extent of "it'll be tough to get in, even with your letters". She was not a LOR writer. I was really shocked because I didn't know/didn't think that professors shared that kind of information with others. Or am I wrong?

Unless you applied to your own school and that professor is on the adcom, the only way she could know what's in your letters is if the writers told her.

Or she could be making a generic statement about your writers' reputation and the connections they have at the schools you're applying to.

Edited January 22, 2010 by fuzzylogician

[Pamphilia]

I'm inclined to disagree with everybody who opposes the idea of professors giving negative advice. It would be lovely if they all were kind, gentle, and positive all the time, but I do not think for a moment that profs have an obligation to be nice or encouraging. That is not to say that a professor should be excused from the social obligations of basic civility, but I don't think they have a social or professional obligation to make us feel warm and snuggly. University faculty are not elementary school teachers with an obligation to cultivate their students' self-esteem. Moreover, I would much, much rather hear straight talk about my prospects than empty and useless but kind words of encouragement.

My undergrad mentor is brilliant, but very scary. When I first told her that I was serious about applying to grad school, she told me that she thought I could do well, but that I wasn't top material. And she did not mince words, and she made me feel like utter crap about it. But I appreciated it--I learned about myself, my weaknesses, and it sort of slapped me back into reality and gave me perspective about my chances. I am still applying to a lot of top programs, and she gladly wrote me strong letters of recommendation. Because she was honest with me, though, I feel like I was better off when applying. I worked my ass off on my applications and had no delusions of greatness. She made me recognize that I will have to work harder than other applicants to get in, and work harder than other students once (if) I do. I'm prepared and excited to do that.

I did not appreciate my undergraduate advisor very much while I was in school. I thought that she was mean, overly critical, and unnecessarily harsh. Now, I appreciate it. I am GLAD she was so tough on me. And I especially appreciate the fact that, even though she makes me feel small and inadequate sometimes (and still scares the bejesus out of me), she has been more supportive through the application process even than my touchy-feely, you-feel-good-so-I-feel-good mentors. She gave me actual support, like honest assessments of my SOP and writing sample, which was so much more valuable than "you go, girl!"-style encouragement.

To the OP, I honestly can't say that I think your professor was out of line. I think she was probably being honest. I also think that you should apply to top programs despite her advice, but that you should keep her advice in mind to maintain perspective. To the poster whose professor flaked on the letters and then offered criticism about the writing sample--the letter thing sucks and infuriates me on your behalf, but I don't think it was wrong for him to give you edits on the WS after the fact. It may be tactless and frustrating, but he's still teaching and you're still learning. Personally, I am the kind of person who bawls in the face of brutal honesty, so I get why this stuff upsets people. That doesn't mean it's not worth it, however.

[red_crayons]

Can other professors who are not recommenders find out what LOR writers wrote for you in their letters? I was curious because the professor had something to the extent of "it'll be tough to get in, even with your letters". She was not a LOR writer. I was really shocked because I didn't know/didn't think that professors shared that kind of information with others. Or am I wrong?

Professors gossip. I've overheard adcom conversations in public hallways this month, which was a bit disconcerting. Professors I never met before said things like, "so and so told me about you; you have quite a reputation!" to me when I was a student. Some people are responsible and private, and some talk a lot, and that's kind of how it is.

[intextrovert]

Professors gossip. I've overheard adcom conversations in public hallways this month, which was a bit disconcerting. Professors I never met before said things like, "so and so told me about you; you have quite a reputation!" to me when I was a student. Some people are responsible and private, and some talk a lot, and that's kind of how it is.

Yeah! I had a prof tell me, who I'd never met (although she later became my thesis adviser), "your reputation preceded you into my office." That freaked me out a little. It's like when people say they had a dream about you - it's weird that people can sort of own you in that way. But now that I'm a teacher, I get it. Teaching is an enormous part of your life, so of course you talk about your students. For the faculty here, it's incessant.

I agree that it's better to hear harsh advice than get sugar-coated encouragement. Academia is rough, and involves a lot of proving yourself against terrible odds. Being honest about those odds, and addressing your weaknesses, is not a bad thing. It sounds like the prof did it without a whole lot of tact, which is always lame. But I do think the sage words of one 98 Degrees can be applicable: "You've gotta be cruel to be kind."

[johndiligent]

Really? Why so?

Because too many students go off to grad school as is, there aren't enough academic jobs for even half of PhD graduates but most importantly because academia is tough and soul-crushing. I think profs should actively discourage every potential grad school applicant who comes through their door. If the student shrugs off the criticism and decides to apply anyway, great. The ones who can't deal with the criticism shouldn't be going anyway.

I'm not saying that your prof was right (to tell students to apply to only low-ranked schools doesn't make a lick of sense). But in response to the general topic of professors who discourage students, not only do I think it's acceptable, I think it's irresponsible for a professor NOT to do so.

[John_Duble_E]

To the OP, I honestly can't say that I think your professor was out of line. I think she was probably being honest. I also think that you should apply to top programs despite her advice, but that you should keep her advice in mind to maintain perspective. To the poster whose professor flaked on the letters and then offered criticism about the writing sample--the letter thing sucks and infuriates me on your behalf, but I don't think it was wrong for him to give you edits on the WS after the fact. It may be tactless and frustrating, but he's still teaching and you're still learning. Personally, I am the kind of person who bawls in the face of brutal honesty, so I get why this stuff upsets people. That doesn't mean it's not worth it, however.

I completely agree with you, Pamphilia; I don't think profs who are touchy-feely and overly sunshine-and-rainbows are all that helpful either, especially if they cannot offer any commentary of substance. However, I'm also not for the doom-and-gloom guys either. I think there's a substantial difference between critical and mean. I've had at least two professors in grad school who were simultaneously soul-destroyingly critical with their comments, but who also couldn't be more positive when a student eventually, and I do mean eventually because they're the type who'll go as far in the process as you're willing in order to understand, succeeds. In the first stages of SOP writing, my initial drafts were admittedly pretty perfunctory and had little or no rhetorical savvy. Then, after several drafts and pages of critical commentary, something finally clicked and I was able to produce something of which I am genuinely proud. These same professors have been instrumental in this process.

As far the professor who flaked out on me is concerned, I just wish he'd told me when he read my statement, so that I could have corrected these mistakes. I recognize that I'm still learning, but he could have been more tactful in his response: you know, at least by taking a breath between "I'm sorry" and "you suck." Hehe. But I digress, criticism can be painful, but equally, it can be an opportunity for growth. I will try to observe this instance as an opportunity to grow!

[peppermint.beatnik]

I agree with what all of you are saying, but some people are just nasty when they have no reason to be.

Haven't you ever had someone dislike you when you've never given them a reason? The same can happen with profs.

[sometimesiexist]

I have one professor, with whom I have a great repertoire, we sometimes just sit and chat about things, I've house sat for him, done one on one classes with him, and he's elected me for a TA job in one of his classes. But still, every time I walk into his office he groans "are you still sure you want to do this?". He tells me about his poverty, his torn up love life, and general lack of free time, and he's on a tenure track in social sciences, not even in the humanities. After I say, yes I'm sure I want to do this, he gives me all the helpful advice I need, even if it's "Don't move to NY city...you'll starve...I promise, You will call me in a year and ask for money you'll be so desperate from starving."

While it's a bit discouraging to watch him tell me how awful everything is, he means well, and doesn't want me to be delusional about where I'll get in (he constantly tells me it's a crap shoot, sometimes terrible candidates get in, and great ones don't) and how much money I'll make ("Do you like pasta? Get used to it.). It's good to have one person in my camp who's being realistic about what happens during the admissions process. It prepared me for how difficult a road I was hoping to travel, not just now, but for at least 15 years.

To the OP, her discouragement sounds less like my prof's discouragement, in that he eventually is extremely helpful after the doom and gloom. Telling you to not apply is not at all helpful, she should instead be telling you to apply, but that it's difficult to get in and you shouldn't be discouraged if you don't. You may have to work super hard, and bust your ass just to apply, but the process is worth it. Maybe don't apply to ALL top 25 programs, apply to one or two. But certainly don't let her convince you to just give up, try to find someone else to talk to, like a career service at your school. A lot of times they will help you with your applications and scholarship/grant/fellowship writing, at least mine does.

[red_crayons]

I'm realizing as I read this that the disciplines that people come from are perhaps coloring their opinions.

I was a biology major as an undergrad. I went to a school where professors told you that you could only use a life sciences degree to a. become a professor b. become a doctor or c. "go into industry" if you got really, REALLY desperate.

Through various work experiences, I realized there are TONS of other opportunities to get stimulating and secure work with a life sciences PhD: working for the government (EPA, USDA, NRCS, defense), as an independent consultant, as a salaried science consultant for all kinds of businesses (banks, television studios, pest management, marketing firms, cosmetics), teaching informally (community agriculture, museums), working with grants MANAGEMENT (where you get to decide priorities for research at a level that COUNTS!!!), on and on. Or, you could get a law degree and work in environmental law. There are SO many options they don't tell you about at universities because they are (naturally, logically, with-good-intentions) trying to indoctrinate you into their way of life!

For me, realizing all the things that are out there helped me decide to go to grad school. I realized that my particular undergrad advisor had a very narrow view of things; he practically invented his field and had a tenure-track job at a prestigious department when he was 23 or something. All he knew was how to be a professor. He discouraged me from grad school completely. In retrospect, I could have taken any kind of life sciences PhD and used it in such a way that I could have found employment outside of academia. Or, my advisor could have talked with me about the courses I was taking outside of science and helped me reach some of the conclusions I later reached on my own.

I'm not bitter; I'm just imagining an alternate outcome.

If, however, I was in the humanities, or possibly the social sciences, becoming a professor COULD have been my only option, if I wanted to use my graduate training in any substantial way. I see a lot of folks with "history" or "sociology" as their interests on this thread. In those fields, it's true that there are a lot of PhDs being given out and no jobs where they can be used. In those fields, it is TOTALLY foreseeable, and possibly appropriate (from a PRAGMATIC point of view), that professors discourage students from spending time, money and energy getting a degree which won't get them anywhere.

Of course, the caveat to THAT is that some people just want to learn something cool. Getting a 5 year stipend to learn about history sounds great! If someone can pull that off - get in, go to classes, finish the dissertation - and not get caught up in expectations of getting a high paying job at the other end, GOOD FOR THEM!

The moral of my (mid-conference, slightly tipsy) post is that we should keep in mind that the context can change the meaning of the particulars. Depending on your field and what you expect to gain from graduate education, it may or may not make sense for a professor to bring you down to earth, or to encourage you to do something which others might find silly.

[iamwhoiam]

Anyone ever have a professor they've NEVER met before criticize them?

I was looking for RA positions in my school, and I contacted a few professors. One professor seemed interested, and he asked to see my CV and writing samples, etc. We scheduled an interview to see how we would get along.

On the day of the interview, I met with him in his office, sat down, and he began to ask me a few questions about myself.

However, they were mostly, "Have you ever used this experimentation method?" (something only relevant to his lab) or "Are you familiar with coding with this software?" To be honest, I knew some students who used that particular software...in grad school. I've only heard of a few undergrads using it for their schoolwork.

Basically, in the end, he told me how I was unqualified to work as his RA, and called me a liar because I had stated that I had "lots of experience" working in labs. I had worked in 3 different labs with different professors during my undergrad career. He asked me if I was considering graduate school, which I was, and told me outright that I basically had a slim chance with my current record. (My GPA was a 3.7, I hadn't taken the GREs yet, and I was preparing to write up an individual project). In his words, I had to get over 1300+ to be considered a "top applicant" and he doubted if anyone could do that well at my school. He told me I would have to sacrifice a lot of time with my individual study, like he did when he was a master's student - and told me he could not see me working as an RA in his lab because of that.

Even after all these attacks, I still somehow managed to smile politely like the gentleman I was, thanked him for his advice and went my way. I was throughly shaken up inside after this though, but after a heart-to-heart meeting with some grad students in my lab (who reassured me I was doing the best I could do go to grad school), I decided to perservere. And now here I am! I ended up working as an RA in my current lab, helping with a publication while doing my individual study.

P.S. Several details have been changed since I don't want to be identified somehow, but the major I am applying to is very, very competitive, which might explain that professor's incredulous attitude about students getting in.

Edited January 24, 2010 by iamwhoiam

[intextrovert]

I'm realizing as I read this that the disciplines that people come from are perhaps coloring their opinions.

I was a biology major as an undergrad. I went to a school where professors told you that you could only use a life sciences degree to a. become a professor b. become a doctor or c. "go into industry" if you got really, REALLY desperate.

Through various work experiences, I realized there are TONS of other opportunities to get stimulating and secure work with a life sciences PhD: working for the government (EPA, USDA, NRCS, defense), as an independent consultant, as a salaried science consultant for all kinds of businesses (banks, television studios, pest management, marketing firms, cosmetics), teaching informally (community agriculture, museums), working with grants MANAGEMENT (where you get to decide priorities for research at a level that COUNTS!!!), on and on. Or, you could get a law degree and work in environmental law. There are SO many options they don't tell you about at universities because they are (naturally, logically, with-good-intentions) trying to indoctrinate you into their way of life!

For me, realizing all the things that are out there helped me decide to go to grad school. I realized that my particular undergrad advisor had a very narrow view of things; he practically invented his field and had a tenure-track job at a prestigious department when he was 23 or something. All he knew was how to be a professor. He discouraged me from grad school completely. In retrospect, I could have taken any kind of life sciences PhD and used it in such a way that I could have found employment outside of academia. Or, my advisor could have talked with me about the courses I was taking outside of science and helped me reach some of the conclusions I later reached on my own.

I'm not bitter; I'm just imagining an alternate outcome.

If, however, I was in the humanities, or possibly the social sciences, becoming a professor COULD have been my only option, if I wanted to use my graduate training in any substantial way. I see a lot of folks with "history" or "sociology" as their interests on this thread. In those fields, it's true that there are a lot of PhDs being given out and no jobs where they can be used. In those fields, it is TOTALLY foreseeable, and possibly appropriate (from a PRAGMATIC point of view), that professors discourage students from spending time, money and energy getting a degree which won't get them anywhere.

Of course, the caveat to THAT is that some people just want to learn something cool. Getting a 5 year stipend to learn about history sounds great! If someone can pull that off - get in, go to classes, finish the dissertation - and not get caught up in expectations of getting a high paying job at the other end, GOOD FOR THEM!

The moral of my (mid-conference, slightly tipsy) post is that we should keep in mind that the context can change the meaning of the particulars. Depending on your field and what you expect to gain from graduate education, it may or may not make sense for a professor to bring you down to earth, or to encourage you to do something which others might find silly.

red_crayons, that was a really smart/astute post. Discipline really affects how valid some of these concerns are, and I think in the humanities, it's almost a moral obligation of profs to discourage smart people who love to read/analyze from following a path that requires a lot more than that to succeed. It's unfair to not let prospective grad students know about the odds and the difficulties ahead of them, even if they are talented. Anyone thinking about academia in the humanities SHOULD be forced to seriously consider and try other options, and if you can be discouraged out of it that early, it's probably a blessing; you'll figure out other less miserable/risky ways to put your talents to good use. Only if you CAN'T be discouraged, because it's not who you are, should you go for the degree.

I also like what you said about the intrinsic value of getting a PhD. If it's just a means to an end, it might not be worth it for most of us humanities folk. But I figure that no matter what happens at the end of it, I want to spend those years going as deeply as I can into my research. We're taught to be so driven by certain definitions of success and financial achievement that it's hard to accept the value of it. But I figure I'll be studying something that is meaningful to me, and as long as I'm making enough to get by, if I'm learning and thinking about what I really value and am passionate about for six years, that's good enough for me. Even if I don't get a TT position at the end (though that would be very nice).

But in the sciences, it is different. The whole "moral obligation" to discourage isn't nearly as applicable, since there are so many different places where an advanced degree can be useful. Discouragement in that case often might be driven more by a prof's ego than by genuine concern for the prospective student. Although I DO want to be in academia more than anything, I am jealous of science people, who have a lot of interesting options available outside of that if it doesn't work out that way.

I wish Obama wanted a Literary Interpretation Czar!

Edited January 24, 2010 by intextrovert

[DeWinter]

I agree with you all that professors need to be upfront about these kinds of things.

BUT

when you are just starting out in your masters and the talk comes around to Phd applications, your grad chair tells everyone to not apply to the top programs because "she doesn't want to assume anything". It just sounded painfully negative.

[UnlikelyGrad]

Professors gossip.

Yeah, they do. This can work to your advantage, or your disadvantage.

When I was a non-degree student, before I started the application process, I had a really awesome professor the first semester (with whom I ended up doing research). He asked me what classes I was going to take the following semester and I said I didn't know...after all, I had to wait until the first day of classes to find out. (Non-degree students weren't allowed to register in advance. So I could only take classes in which there was an opening.)

He told me...look, just tell me what classes you want, and you will get in them. Even if there seems to be no room. Then he told me that professors love nothing more than to gab about their students...at least the extreme ones. (Griping about the bad, delighting in the good.) And that everyone in the department therefore knew that I was an awesome student they'd love to have in their class.

I don't think I believed him at first. But a few weeks later, we went up to the department office to fill out a key request form and ran into several professors on the way. Embarrassingly, he introduced me to them as "UnlikelyGrad, the superstar PChem student I told you about"--and they all knew exactly who he meant!! *blush*

I'm not sure I want to know what happens to the students that professors don't like as well!

[PaperChaser]

Unfortunately, she's my graduate chair and she has not really been involved with anything that I have done. I've just taken a breezy course where she just tells you what to do in graduate school (when to apply, how to get committees together). It was mostly just her talking. Other than that, she's just been out of the loop. I had to talk to her because she asked where I was applying. I even told her that I'd be talking to a department chair of one of the schools that i was applying and she blew it off like it was nothing. She's been saying "don't apply to top programs" to everyone in the department. I don't know if it's just me but I don't believe it's the best approach for motivating students.

I mean, I've talked to professors at most departments I'm applying to and they've been quite interested. She said "it'll be tough getting into these schools even with the letters of recommendations". Kinda shocked me. These are not top 10 or 20. It's more like the top 30's, 40's and 50's in ranking.

Ignore the bitter troll and go for your dream. Have a backup plan in case you have to go to Round Two. Then send the bitter troll a sarcastic thank-you note when you get your degree

My high school English teacher always wrote on my report cards that I was the laziest student she'd ever had in an AP class. "You'd be lucky to get INTO college." It took me more than a decade, but the satisfaction of sending her a "note" on law firm letterhead saying that not only had I gotten 2 master's and a law degree BUT ALSO that I got into my first choice PhD program was SOOOOOOO worth the work!

The really negative people want everyone else to be miserable too.

[Str2T]

Most of the professors in my MFA creative writing program have been really supportive about my trying to continue on to an English PhD (even one who went ABD because of an existential crisis). The only person who gave me flak taught in the MA track. I've rarely crossed paths with her (I've never taken a course from her) and definitely never sought her advice. But when she heard from other MFAs and MAs that I was applying to her alma mater, she decided it was necessary to dampen my enthusiasm. Not only did she say I had very little to no chance of getting in there or anywhere else (even though she didn't know me at all: didn't know about the types of research I'm interested in, MA track courses I've taken, or info about my undergraduate studies), but she essentially called my three years getting an MFA a complete waste of time. I realize that an MFA does not normally lead into an English lit PhD, but I've heard of plenty of people with that degree pursuing English lit, comp lit, or comp-rhet PhDs. So far, I'm waitlisted at a higher ranked institution and waiting to hear back from her alma mater. I'm hoping to demonstrate that profs shouldn't make sweeping generalizations based on type of masters program and a five minute introduction.

[rising_star]

My high school English teacher always wrote on my report cards that I was the laziest student she'd ever had in an AP class. "You'd be lucky to get INTO college." It took me more than a decade, but the satisfaction of sending her a "note" on law firm letterhead saying that not only had I gotten 2 master's and a law degree BUT ALSO that I got into my first choice PhD program was SOOOOOOO worth the work!

The really negative people want everyone else to be miserable too.

My high school English teachers got a kick out of me being a literature major in college, mostly because I never read the books assigned for class. My first year of college, I had a prof for my first-year writing course tell me that I was incapable of writing at the collegiate level, and should drop out. I did graduate from there, earn a MA, and am now doing well in my PhD program. I plan to send that professor a copy of my diploma once I get my PhD, even though I doubt he will remember me.

[JerryLandis]

I think it is common for people to have that one professor or TA who says something like "You clearly have no idea how to write and will have serious difficulty passing your classes." This happened to my brother when he, in his senior year, was taking a first year course for some reason and was getting A's in every other, more advanced, class. So the guy making the comment that he was doomed for failure in college was obviously full of shit!

I had a similar experience in which someone grading my essay told me that I really needed to work on my writing skills, that I would never hack it in more advanced classes. Really, asshole? That's interesting, considering I got record high first class marks on the essays from all my other courses, and, a couple years down the line, am still doing quite well in my more advanced courses. I've half-jokingly decided to look up some of his published work and dedicate myself to disproving his ideas in my own publications to make him look like an idiot. It's funny how brief encounters with certain individuals can cause deep, long-standing resentment, and how that resentment can inspire you to do your best work out of spite.

I too wish that more professors would tread that middle ground. I only discussed my plans with professors who I knew liked me, so I didn't get any mean comments. Being told that I would "definitely get in anywhere" was really not helpful. I really appreciated that one professor gave me his honest assessment, saying that chances of acceptance were slim but at the same time not insulting me personally. It's a shame that more people aren't capable of delivering that message.

[coyabean]

Ignore the bitter troll and go for your dream. Have a backup plan in case you have to go to Round Two. Then send the bitter troll a sarcastic thank-you note when you get your degree

My high school English teacher always wrote on my report cards that I was the laziest student she'd ever had in an AP class. "You'd be lucky to get INTO college." It took me more than a decade, but the satisfaction of sending her a "note" on law firm letterhead saying that not only had I gotten 2 master's and a law degree BUT ALSO that I got into my first choice PhD program was SOOOOOOO worth the work!

The really negative people want everyone else to be miserable too.

It could be worse. You could have had THISguy.

And I don't doubt that teachers deal with underachieving, lazy students and that it can undermine their attitude. However, I always love how it is always that the student is lazy and not that the teacher is boring, inept, combative, etc. Maybe I don't pay attention in your class, Ms. Cooper, because you have been having the same lecture for three months and it was irrelevant and convoluted when you first said it. Sorry, vent.

[wahineilikea]

It sucks that there are such people with whom we have to work closely who are just not on our team. I would say never let one person's opinion sway you from applying wherever you want. Thank this negative prof for her opinion and move on as you see fit. It's not a bad think to stretch, as I think we all tend to underestimate our abilities. I applied to UCLA and U Washington, not expecting to get into either. I thought my SoP for UW was weak and at my interview I was convinced that the department head thought me kind of weird, but it turns out they regarded me as their top applicant and I got a three-year assistantship. Now I'm about to work with a professor at UW that has nothing but praise for my accomplishments and complete confidence in me.

Some profs are seriously bitter and hate their lives, and don't want anyone else to succeed. I have seen some of my friends be completely crushed by having to work with such profs and it's just really sad. So just be sensible - aim high, include a few safety schools that would suffice if you don't get into your top choice, and see what happens.