PhD at average Grad School: What's even the point?

[Eshtah]

I don't want to come across as arrogant or anything. I am just really wondering if it's worth attending an "average" Grad School if my plan is to go for a career in academia. I am an international student and have chosen to apply in the US because of my relationship but also because I hoped to improve my career chances by attending one of the great universities like Columbia, Princeton, Harvard etc. I have not heard back anything yet and I know that doesn't mean anything at this point (except at Columbia; they apparently have already sent out their admission letters and I didn't get one). I was lucky enough, however, to be accepted at one school already.

While I am waiting to hear back from other universities, I am trying to evaluate if I would really like to go there. It's not a perfect fit when it comes to expertise in my field but I will definitely learn something. I received a fellowship for the first year and would teach the rest of the time. 

What do you think? How does it work in the US? Will I only have a shot at an academic career if I have a PhD from one of the top ones or can I work my way up by kicking a...?

I would value any advice!

[akraticfanatic]

Just because they don't have a big name doesn't mean they don't have a great program! I'm sure you selected schools for application that have great programs in your field. Maybe the ivy leagues look more impressive at first glance at a resume, but I wouldn't let that deter you if this is something you really want to do. A PhD is a PhD. 

[akraticfanatic]

And besides, you still might get in to your top choices!

[menge]

A couple thoughts: first, I'm not sure what you mean by "average." But I would check into their job placement data and see if students are getting jobs at the kind of places you want to end up. 

Additionally, I recently had a discussion with my department chair about hiring preferences in our department (a public institution). He indicated that Ivy applicants are always looked at favorably because they boost the perceived reputation of the department. He was quick to say though, that while that might get them an interview, it would not get them the job. In fact, our last two faculty hires have PhD's from public institutions. In fact, he indicated that applicants with Ivy PhD's might be red-flagged because they might view the job as a stepping stone. And in an environment where every humanities tenure line is under scrutiny, the last thing a department needs is to lose a new hire after 2 years. 

It is true that where you get your PhD is generally the ceiling for where you can get hired, especially early on. But, there is a lot of good work going on in places that are not Ivy institutions. Increasingly there are also good jobs abroad for someone with a strong American PhD. I may have created a false dichotomy by casting this in terms of "Ivy" or elite private vs. "public" schools, but I think this is fair insofar as this is often an implicit divide for academic prestige. 

[Entangled Phantoms]

1 hour ago, shayhenckel said:

Just because they don't have a big name doesn't mean they don't have a great program! I'm sure you selected schools for application that have great programs in your field. 

Well, the question was not whether reputation correlates with program quality. It was whether one could get an academic job without a shiny name on the diploma. 

Shot (link)
Chaser (link)
 

1 hour ago, shayhenckel said:

Maybe the ivy leagues look more impressive at first glance at a resume, but I wouldn't let that deter you if this is something you really want to do. A PhD is a PhD. 

Sounds like what OP really wants to do is work in academia.

"A PhD is a PhD." This attitude is why there are so many unemployed PhD graduates out there. Nobody thinks a PhD is a PhD. Not applicants (who almost always pick the best program they get into), not academia (who hire almost exclusively from elite institutions), not even your average person on the street.  

[Eshtah]

Well, that honestly calms my nerves quite a bit. I am mostly afraid that the outcome of these applications determine my later success and that no matter how hard I work and how good I will be, I will never have a chance in academia if things don't go the way I hope right now. 

I don't know how to check anyone's job placement data (will surf the internet for more information), but the program I am referring to is new and therefore has no graduates yet. Prior to applying, I have tried my best to get a sense for rankings and great public places, but it remains rather obscure to me, which places are actually considered a good place in the US. Honestly, changing the continent is a bit challenging in that regard, especially since my partner is in a completely different field. 

[Eshtah]

Ok, I take that back. Freaking out it is...

[Marcion]

The best and most advice was this: only go to a PhD program with good mentors, in a place you want to live, with good funding, and gives you a chance of a job.

[Musick]

I had this conversation with my MA thesis committee after my defense. It depends on your field somewhat, but they all assured me that it's more about your personal connection with your advisor.

I applied to four programs with fancy names and two that just had a person I was interested in working with. One of my mentors referred to a difference in the past and present academia... the past being a "good ole boys" club where if you didn't have an ivy league PhD, your career was over or had a thick ceiling imposed on it... the present being more diverse, more symbiotic between different schools, and more about you than your school name.

[Eshtah]

21 minutes ago, Marcion said:

The best and most advice was this: only go to a PhD program with good mentors, in a place you want to live, with good funding, and gives you a chance of a job.

Well, it's not so obvious to me which programs provide exactly that; hence the question: 

Which program gives me a chance of a job (in academia)?

And also: What's good funding (in the US)?

[siitrasn]

Deleted because I just realized I'm posting in the religion thread, which I know absolutely nothing about. Sorry!

Edited February 18, 2017 by siitrasn

[Marcion]

11 minutes ago, Eshtah said:

Well, it's not so obvious to me which programs provide exactly that; hence the question: 

Which program gives me a chance of a job (in academia)?

And also: What's good funding (in the US)?

The schools become very clear once you start googling random schools and seeing patterns... and sadly, they are predictable patterns: Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Duke, Stanford, UPenn, UChicago, etc. Basically the elite schools.

As for good funding, I would say good funding is `1) all tuition covered, 2) a stipend which makes the cost of living doable in that area and 3) some extra perks like conference and research expenses.

[Marcion]

46 minutes ago, Entangled Phantoms said:

"A PhD is a PhD." This attitude is why there are so many unemployed PhD graduates out there. Nobody thinks a PhD is a PhD. Not applicants (who almost always pick the best program they get into), not academia (who hire almost exclusively from elite institutions), not even your average person on the street.  

This is the sad truth of the matter. 

[menge]

50 minutes ago, Eshtah said:

the program I am referring to is new and therefore has no graduates yet

This would make me a bit nervous. Is the entire PhD program new, or just your subfield? Also, are your would-be advisors visible and well connected members of the field? This especially matters if the program is new, and therefore an unknown quantity to hiring committees. 

[Marcion]

59 minutes ago, Eshtah said:

Well, that honestly calms my nerves quite a bit. I am mostly afraid that the outcome of these applications determine my later success and that no matter how hard I work and how good I will be, I will never have a chance in academia if things don't go the way I hope right now. 

I don't know how to check anyone's job placement data (will surf the internet for more information), but the program I am referring to is new and therefore has no graduates yet. Prior to applying, I have tried my best to get a sense for rankings and great public places, but it remains rather obscure to me, which places are actually considered a good place in the US. Honestly, changing the continent is a bit challenging in that regard, especially since my partner is in a completely different field. 

Which school? 

[Eshtah]

36 minutes ago, menge said:

This would make me a bit nervous. Is the entire PhD program new, or just your subfield? Also, are your would-be advisors visible and well connected members of the field? This especially matters if the program is new, and therefore an unknown quantity to hiring committees. 

 

28 minutes ago, Marcion said:

Which school? 

I am talking about a PhD in the department of religion at UC Davis.

 

[rheya19]

It also depends upon what kind of work you produce in your PhD and the contacts you make throughout the field. You could write a ground-breaking dissertation, or gain the attention of respected researchers who want to give you interesting post-doc opportunities.  It also depends upon your career goals. I'm honestly hoping to be the head of a Humanities department at a small state school or community college someday, so I can protect those kinds of programs from the budget cuts and general de-valuing they're facing. Some people want to be well-known researchers and writers, but never see the inside of a classroom. Some people want tenure at an Ivy league research institution. Others might take their degree and apply it to a non-academic industry, like journalism or a non-profit or specific businesses, etc, etc. Ivy league educations are great, but I don't think they're always necessary.

[rheya19]

6 hours ago, siitrasn said:

Deleted because I just realized I'm posting in the religion thread, which I know absolutely nothing about. Sorry!

You'll never make any money no matter what. That's all you need to know about religious studies.

[Marcion]

4 hours ago, rheya19 said:

It also depends upon what kind of work you produce in your PhD and the contacts you make throughout the field. You could write a ground-breaking dissertation, or gain the attention of respected researchers who want to give you interesting post-doc opportunities.  It also depends upon your career goals. I'm honestly hoping to be the head of a Humanities department at a small state school or community college someday, so I can protect those kinds of programs from the budget cuts and general de-valuing they're facing. Some people want to be well-known researchers and writers, but never see the inside of a classroom. Some people want tenure at an Ivy league research institution. Others might take their degree and apply it to a non-academic industry, like journalism or a non-profit or specific businesses, etc, etc. Ivy league educations are great, but I don't think they're always necessary.

Given the state of the job market, you kind of have to be all things to all people (couldn't help myself). Another thing. I have friends teaching at Community Colleges and smaller Liberal Arts schools with top 2nd tier degrees like FSU. Given the job market, people from Yale, Harvard, Princeton, and all over the place are applying for these jobs but the hiring boards can smell two things a) desperation and b ) being used as a stepping stone. My wife went to a great school in the mid west, old and respected, and very well ranked, but because it was in the midwest, very few people "actually" wanted to live out there. People from top tier schools applied, but the guy who got the job went to Claremont of all places. How? When I spoke with my mates on the hiring board, they knew he had connections to the midwest, he actually loved living there, would not want to move at the first chance, and would teach classes people would actually be interested in. I noticed the same thing at Missouri, Kansas, Nebskra, and other big state schools, sure, they all went to ivy league schools but they are born in or married into the region. This has become great advice for me and really helps me figure out my future. My wife wants to hopefully get us away from the coasts and back to the inland eventually. Because of the investment, small schools do not want to be treated as stepping stones.

[TakeruK]

I'm not in the same field, but for what it's worth, no I don't think a PhD is a PhD. When I applied to PhD programs, I only applied to top programs (top 10) in my field. My plan was that if I did not get into a top program, I would not pursue a PhD but instead follow one of the many other career paths that interested me instead. 

I applied the same approach to postdoc positions---if I were not able to get a "good" postdoc position, I was not planning to continue in academia. I did not want to do an "average" postdoc and then do another one and another one and then eventually learn that I'm not competitive enough for a permanent academic position. My academic/career plan has always been to only stay in this path as long as I could see others like myself advancing to end/permanent positions that I want.

Although I am not the top student in my field by any means, I think I did do very well in my PhD and out of the ~16 or so top tier postdoc positions I applied to, I have received one offer (although not everything is decided yet). Fortunately for me, this one offer is the one I wanted the most!! However, it is very scary to think about what could have happened instead. There are 300 or so academics in my field that are in their final year of their PhD (like me) or within 3 years of their PhD all applying to about 40 or so available positions that would be considered "top tier". For any given opening, there are usually 50-100 other applicants also applying for it. I knew from the posts from older students on these forums and from talking to others in my field that the job market is competitive, but I did not really appreciate how competitive it was until I actually started applying. 

During the interview stage, it seems like my experience and skills were the deciding factor in getting the position I wanted. However, the only reason I was able to develop the specific experience and skills that impressed the hiring committee was because I was at a top 10 institution with access to world class telescopes that no one else can use. 

It is not all about school name of course. There are some people from my department that did better in the job market because they are more insightful, more intelligent and more productive than me. So yes, what you know is also very important. However, the people with this level of skill and ability are also the people who would get into the top schools. What I mean to say is that having a nice school name isn't enough to land you a good job. But if you take two equally skilled/experienced people and put one in a top school with unlimited resources and one in an average school with decent resources, I'd predict that the student from the top school will fare better generally. Nurture wins over nature, when it comes to graduate education, in my opinion. 

[akraticfanatic]

9 hours ago, Entangled Phantoms said:

Well, the question was not whether reputation correlates with program quality. It was whether one could get an academic job without a shiny name on the diploma. 

Shot (link)
Chaser (link)
 

Sounds like what OP really wants to do is work in academia.

"A PhD is a PhD." This attitude is why there are so many unemployed PhD graduates out there. Nobody thinks a PhD is a PhD. Not applicants (who almost always pick the best program they get into), not academia (who hire almost exclusively from elite institutions), not even your average person on the street.  

If what they really want to do is work in academia, then they probably applied to programs that will help them reach that goal...

[Entangled Phantoms]

56 minutes ago, shayhenckel said:

If what they really want to do is work in academia, then they probably applied to programs that will help them reach that goal...

Yet for some reason they decided to start this thread ....

[jsant09]

This is a huge dilemma I can empathize with. It's not even just in regards to average schools but very good ones as well with excellent faculty and good funding. I think the key is really the mentoring you receive. That can be what makes up for the name of the school. 

[Eshtah]

The problem really is to me that it is not so obvious at all which schools are the best. There are the Ivy league schools and then there are the others. Ivy league schools are the best. So far so good. But then quite a few Ivy league programs just don't have any faculty member working in my field. Whereas another universities do although they are not Ivy league.

Is it worth choosing the better fit and overlapping research interests over the name of a university and its prestige? 

[rheya19]

1 hour ago, Eshtah said:

The problem really is to me that it is not so obvious at all which schools are the best. There are the Ivy league schools and then there are the others. Ivy league schools are the best. So far so good. But then quite a few Ivy league programs just don't have any faculty member working in my field. Whereas another universities do although they are not Ivy league.

Is it worth choosing the better fit and overlapping research interests over the name of a university and its prestige? 

Can you be happy working on research that isn't really your main interest? Are any of the ivy league profs doing things you would like? Grad school is miserable and joy-sucking enough as it is without having to resent doing research you hate.