Leaving PhD program - reasons and advice

[olsenolsen]

Hi everyone!

I'm a 3rd year neuroscience PhD student (starting 4th year in August) at a mid-tier program. 

Over the last couple of years my personal life has changed quite abruptly - roughly one year ago, my partner moved back home to take care of her father who eventually died from cancer not too long ago. She is still living at home and without getting into too many details will probably be there permanently. 

While the commute is rough, it's not too bad, but it is not sustainable for the next 3ish years I need to finish up my PhD.

This issue is also compounded by my graduate experience at my current institution which hasn't been anything less than miserable - terrible environment and institutional resources  - just mediocre all around (and lots of graduate students feel this way). Most faculty members I met lied/deceived me about their funding when I interviewed and it turned out that the department was absolutely broke.  Additionally, I am a person of color and the resources for people of color at this institution are ABYSMAL. I genuinely feel like I was recruited disingenuously to this institution to increase their diversity profile.

As a consequence of these two issues, I am considering mastering out and applying to graduate programs near my partner (my options are strong and would offer the scientific training and support I need). I've been extremely productive, with several publications (one in a very, very high ranked journal). I've read a lot about mastering out and so forth, but I am wondering what my options are at this point.

Does anyone have any insight about this?

Thanks so much for reading and for any responses!

[thelionking]

Mastering out sounds like a great idea. Do you think you'll have any difficulty getting good references from this school? (Not due to your performance as a student but due to all of the reasons that you have described). Apart from this reason, it doesn't sound like there is much holding you back from leaving this less than ideal situation to get a chance at something much better. 

[ThousandsHardships]

It sounds like everything is for you mastering out at this point, but for the same reasons that the above poster described, I'm not sure what your status would be if you were to ask for references at your current institution. If you feel like they were disingenuous with you during your recruitment process, how certain are you that they will speak well of you when you apply to other schools? That said, with a master's degree, you are perfectly capable of getting a research position at almost any university, company, or institute. Perhaps you'd be able to do that for a while near your significant other and then apply to programs again when you're ready to do so? There's no shame in doing that. If you're unhappy at your current school, there's no point in going three more years.

I actually mastered out myself from my previous PhD program, so I'm not unfamiliar with the turmoils involved. I don't think our experiences or reasons for doing so are alike in the least bit, but if you're curious, feel free to message me. All I can say is that this decision opened new doors for me and I could not be happier.

Edited April 9, 2017 by ThousandsHardships

[spectastic]

I'm that far yet, but if thousandhardships makes a valid point in worrying about whether you will get a good recommendation from your current research adviser. And it sounds like you feel victimized by the department, and your head is not in the right place to be productive with them any longer. Best course of action is to leave that environment. don't fight it. it might be a good idea to take some long weekends or sick days to meet/skype with potential research advisers from other schools and get some face time, to show commitment, and to have honest, unfiltered conversations (do try to keep them positive though). This is what I did when I was SOL, and would not be where I am had I not done so. If they like you, they can pull strings to get you in. 

[buttercup8d]

Hi everyone,

I need some advice. I am a POC who entered a specialized program, believing there were lots of POC like me. Multicultural competence here is disappointingly lacking although the research is extremely important to me. I like my advisor a lot and we are a great great match. But I'm currently at a very white school where it's triggered my depression almost daily. I'm not sure if I should leave and contact the other school about transferring (which is actually a top tier for its field) or seek therapy to 'fix' myself for the next few years I'm here.

Also, there is almost no social support for me at this school due to a director's personal dislike/hostility to me (this is the person who told me the school was diverse). I don't know if I should stick to this program because the research is so important to me, or if the personal cost is worth it. It's also affecting my sleep, thinking and productivity. Any advice would be appreciated.

Edited October 19, 2017 by buttercup8d

[rising_star]

52 minutes ago, buttercup8d said:

Hi everyone,

I need some advice. I am a POC who entered a specialized program, believing there were lots of POC like me. Multicultural competence here is disappointingly lacking although the research is extremely important to me. I like my advisor a lot and we are a great great match. But I'm currently at a very white school where it's triggered my depression almost daily. I'm not sure if I should leave and contact the other school about transferring (which is actually a top tier for its field) or seek therapy to 'fix' myself for the next few years I'm here.

Is the other school more diverse? Are you likely to find a job in a department that's significantly more diverse than where you are now? I ask because I come from a field where 1-2 POC out of 70 grad students isn't uncommon and the faculty mirror that lack of diversity. While I'm the first to admit that numbers aren't everything, in some ways the lack of multicultural competence comes out of and continues to be affected by that (no need to gain those skills if the students and faculty remain overwhelmingly white). 

If it's your first semester, I recommend trying to see a therapist and working on your depression. Actually, regardless of where you are in your academic career, I recommend that. There's something to be said for making yourself into a better person (no, this isn't the same as trying to "fix" yourself) and developing the skills needed to cope with difficult situations. Transfers are difficult at the grad level, especially if you don't earn a master's degree along the way.

As far as social support, have you tried seeking that out on your own? This could be from multicultural student organizations, grad student groups, or other groups with whom you share an affinity/hobby/interest (e.g., book club, church/synagogue/temple, running club, etc.). I wouldn't let one person have that much control over my social life. There are definitely ways to find support though it may require some self-initiative. Good luck! Keep us posted please.

[cowgirlsdontcry]

48 minutes ago, buttercup8d said:

Hi everyone,

I need some advice. I am a POC who entered a specialized program, believing there were lots of POC like me. Multicultural competence here is disappointingly lacking although the research is extremely important to me. I like my advisor a lot and we are a great great match. But I'm currently at a very white school where it's triggered my depression almost daily. I'm not sure if I should leave and contact the other school about transferring (which is actually a top tier for its field) or seek therapy to 'fix' myself for the next few years I'm here.

Also, there is almost no social support for me at this school due to a director's personal dislike/hostility to me (this is the person who told me the school was diverse). I don't know if I should stick to this program because the research is so important to me, or if the personal cost is worth it. It's also affecting my sleep, thinking and productivity. Any advice would be appreciated.

I am white and attended undergrad and MA at a smallish tier one-regional university in Louisiana. The diversity at that school was about the same as the population of the state was (55:45). I did a year-long exchange at a large flagship university in the northeast and was surprised when I saw no diversity at the university. When I looked at demographics, there was a diversity rate of under 10%. The towns surrounding the university were all white with even less diversity. So I can only imagine how you feel. Having said all of that, it sounds like you have a great relationship with your advisor and the program is very good. Those are difficult to replace. There are always things you are going to have to deal with and may not be able to have such a good work environment in a top program. I'm in an English PhD program where the MFA students act as though they are all that (NOT). Wherever we are, there are going to be things we don't like. Get some counselling to help and keep working. 

[buttercup8d]

27 minutes ago, rising_star said:

Is the other school more diverse? Are you likely to find a job in a department that's significantly more diverse than where you are now? I ask because I come from a field where 1-2 POC out of 70 grad students isn't uncommon and the faculty mirror that lack of diversity. While I'm the first to admit that numbers aren't everything, in some ways the lack of multicultural competence comes out of and continues to be affected by that (no need to gain those skills if the students and faculty remain overwhelmingly white). 

If it's your first semester, I recommend trying to see a therapist and working on your depression. Actually, regardless of where you are in your academic career, I recommend that. There's something to be said for making yourself into a better person (no, this isn't the same as trying to "fix" yourself) and developing the skills needed to cope with difficult situations. Transfers are difficult at the grad level, especially if you don't earn a master's degree along the way.

As far as social support, have you tried seeking that out on your own? This could be from multicultural student organizations, grad student groups, or other groups with whom you share an affinity/hobby/interest (e.g., book club, church/synagogue/temple, running club, etc.). I wouldn't let one person have that much control over my social life. There are definitely ways to find support though it may require some self-initiative. Good luck! Keep us posted please.

The other school (where my home actually is) is significantly more diverse, and I was told I was the advisor's first choice during applications. I honestly thought the current school would be a better fit for my future goals, and they are in some ways. In more subtle and personal ways, they are not.  I vetted diversity at all the schools I interviewed at, and one program told me honestly that I would be the only POC coming into the program and to think about that factor carefully if it was important to me. I realize only now that they did me a huge favor.

I have tried joining groups, etc. The issue is that I have a great deal of workload and barely have time to sleep, let alone do extracurricular activities. My concern isn't about becoming a better person. It's the way that my identity will develop in the next few years and how this will affect me as a person and a researcher (my research actually has a focus on multicultural factors).

Edited October 19, 2017 by buttercup8d

[dr. t]

You say the research you're doing at your current school is important to you, so I need to ask: what do you want out of a PhD? Because if you want to become a professor, you have to recognize the infuriating fact that you are not going to be able to find employment with a school's diversity as a make or break criterium. This is a problem that moving schools will delay, rather than address. 

[juilletmercredi]

^I came to see the same thing as above. The departments and professional spaces you move in will only become less and less diverse as you climb the ladder. We PhDs of color are pioneers, and part of what comes with the territory is that we're often the only one in the space. There won't be more of us unless more of us continue to get the education and move up.

I'm going to be frank and say that while as a black woman I totally understand wanting to be in a place with lots of other people of color if we can choose it, I think sometimes we also need to shed the expectation that there WILL be lots of people of color especially in industries in which we are severely underrepresented, like academia. Somebody's got to be the first.

That said, though, there's no saying that the first has got to be you, especially if it's negatively affecting your mental health. Before you attempt to leave I'd see if you could visit a counselor and get your mental health in order enough to stay where you are, if you like it otherwise. But if you're still feeling bad enough that you can't stand it, there's no shame in leaving.

Also, one of the directors in my department disliked me for some reason (I barely interacted with her. I'm not imagining it either, as my advisor, a few other professors, and several classmates commented on her particular dislike for me). I ignored her, did my work, fulfilled the requirements that were set down, graduated with my degree and kept it pushing. Unless the director is actively creating a toxic environment for you, you can do the same.

[buttercup8d]

^ Thanks for the advice to you both. Those are factors I didn't take into account - moving up the academic latter, not seeing POC like me and being misunderstood. Moving here and leaving my family and friends have also been difficult. I'm sad to have lost an amazing life of diversity  

I am someone who takes a lot of initiative but the idea of being first as a WOC, especially in my field, hasn't usually been in the forefront of my mind. I sometimes wonder if it's because I've assimilated too much into mainstream culture when I was younger, and I tend to forget I'm a POC until someone points it out to me. That said, the other program I was considering is probably one of the most diverse academic sub-fields out there, and they actively recruit students of color. I've honestly never been to a PhD interview with that much color. It made my head spin

And I want to clarify that it's not because the people around me are white. It's the attitude and political views here, not their race, which is affecting me. I don't think that white people are a monolith any more than other groups are.

Edited October 20, 2017 by buttercup8d

[rising_star]

On 10/20/2017 at 8:59 AM, buttercup8d said:

And I want to clarify that it's not because the people around me are white. It's the attitude and political views here, not their race, which is affecting me. I don't think that white people are a monolith any more than other groups are.

To echo the above, that's going to be an issue when you're on the academic job market too. Jobs aren't often available in your field in places with loads of diversity (this is regardless of one's field).* Take a serious look at the job openings in your area (the Academic Jobs Wiki is a great place to start) to get a sense of what the market has looked like the past few years. If you don't like any of the kinds of options you're seeing, it's probably a good idea to start investigating alt-ac options and prepare for those while in your PhD program. 

*This is even more true if you're not looking at R1 jobs but rather R2s or SLACs. Many of the nation's liberal arts colleges are in small towns an hour or two drive away from bigger cities, sometimes even further.

[dr. t]

Sorry to have neglected this thread for a bit, but this is a particularly relevant article to @rising_star's point: http://gawker.com/my-vassar-college-faculty-id-makes-everything-ok-1664133077

[buttercup8d]

I don't know if I entirely agree anymore with the suck-it-up-it's-always-been-like-this philosophy....I'm sick of this. I've dealt with it my whole life, and it is frankly exhausting. I don't see why I have to do the same thing at this point especially if I have the choice to do the same work at another place and not become sick from institutional racism in the next few years.

It's maddening that we have to "adjust" ourselves. It can't be like this forever. Minorities are slowly becoming the majority now,  and if novel research coming out is pioneered by POC, then our institutions have to change too. And part of that change has to do with empowering yourself as a POC by linking up with others who aren't complicit with harmful institutions.

Edited October 30, 2017 by buttercup8d

[fuzzylogician]

We have to do some of everything: pick friendly places to be at, survive the bad ones when they happen (and they do). Pick your battles, fight some but also let go of some others, too. Find support groups inside your institution or outside of it. I don't that sucking it up is exactly the right attitude, but if you want to play the long game -- and an academic career is very much that -- you have to be smart about the politics and what really matters. You might very well choose to prioritize your well-being and act accordingly. I think that's totally justified, if possible (because on occasion, it may not be, and you'll just be busy surviving, or in other words, sucking it up). But then, no place is perfect, and not every battle is worth having, so keep that in mind for the future. 

[rising_star]

@buttercup8d, I don't think anyone said that POC should just suck it up. I think it was more of offering the counterpoint that the grass isn't always greener. I have friends in the corporate world who go through the exact same BS that POC academics talk about. It's definitely worth being aware of the advantages and disadvantages of each so that you can make an informed decision about where you want to be and how you want to spend your life. I recommend deep introspection and loads of informational interviews to help as you try to figure that out.

[_kita]

 If you do not want to be a spokesperson for your minority status, you'll need to research the industry and region you're going into. That way, you can find yourself a better fit where you're not so alone. I agree that you shouldn't have to do that much work, but institutions are disproportionate across America. If that's something you're okay with doing, our institutions could use more spokespeople who are amazing (and not just loud) advocates. Either way, knowing the demographics of your coworkers, clients, and region may be more important going into any job or educational experience.