Unless you have a trust fund and never want to leave DC, these programs are a scam

[elmo_says]

I graduated a few years ago from one of the top 5 master's programs that gets a lot of attention here at Gradcafe. I had a better than average outcome - I got a job within 2 months of graduation, and have a solid salary (~80k after two raises) with benefits.

Still, I would strongly caution anyone considering one of these programs to think long and hard about it, unless you have a trust fund and are 100% certain that you could never want to live anywhere but DC. These IR/MPP programs open a few doors, sure, but they close a lot of them too. In retrospect, I wish I had gotten an MBA or tried to climb my way up without the over-priced master's degree, and a lot of my friends from grad school have expressed similar things in the past few months, now that we're sick of our first job or two out of grad school but feel trapped with constrained career prospects and lots of debt in most cases.

Why I regret it:

• Even after scholarships and some limited help from my parents, I still graduated with about 70k in debt. That's about half of what some of my classmates have, but it still sucks having to make $600+/month payments until I'm in my late 30s. Some of my friends with bigger debt loads are barely covering interest and will be lucky if they've paid down the loans by their 50th bdays. Less than half of people at my prestigious program got any aid whatsoever. Debt is a frequent conversation topic at all social events these days. 
• Most of the highest-paid gigs in IR/policy go to people with MBAs or JDs. If you manage to, say, scam your way into federal consulting at Deloitte you'll be getting paid 30-50% less than your similarly-credentialed colleagues with MBAs.
• A lot of the most prestigious-sounding jobs for pure IR/policy people have crappy salaries (most non-profits or working on the Hill) or no benefits (STCs at the World Bank and IMF), and the only ones who can take them are the rich international types and some Americans whose parents subsidize their lifestyles. 
• Most everyone else gets some boring office job that is vaguely policy-related, but no more interesting in practice than working at Dunder Mifflin or wherever the dude from Office Space worked. Your fancy degree does not get you out of cubicle hell. And your dreams of changing the world will be crushed when you realize the reports you're writing on healthcare policy are being sold to private companies and financial investors so that they can make even more money.
• Though I couldn't have predicted this when I enrolled, federal hiring is an absolute shitshow right now, or at least more so than usual - mass hiring freezes, extreme uncertainty about future staffing levels, long backups with security clearances. That's assuming you want to even work for this administration.
• Most people I know who are working for the federal government are contractors, which  means no loan forgiveness.
• DC is insanely overpriced, and the culture here is pretty boring, even though people tell me it has massively improved from 10-15 years ago. But if I never see another soulless luxury apartment building with a fancy spin studio and an overpriced trendy but bland restaurant in the ground floor retail space...it will be too soon.
• When you inevitably decide you want to leave DC, you will find that these degrees do not confer nearly as much prestige as the admissions' offices will have you believe.  

And before someone accuses me of being bitter....well, I kind of am. And so are most of my friends, even the ones with jobs they could probably brag about if they felt so inclined.  

Edited October 1, 2017 by elmo_says
Typo

[ExponentialDecay]

this post would go well with a beer because it's one salty snack ahaha

A lot of the most prestigious-sounding jobs for pure IR/policy people have crappy salaries (most non-profits or working on the Hill) or no benefits (STCs at the World Bank and IMF), and the only ones who can take them are the rich international types and some Americans whose parents subsidize their lifestyles.

That's not true. It is entirely feasible to live independently in DC on even the much lower pre-master's Hill/NGO/STC salary, and by independently I mean inside the District while shopping at wholefoods and going out several times a week. I don't know what kind of lifestyle you and your friends expect. Also, the reason those "international types" (wtf? what's wrong with being international?) take STC jobs isn't because they're rich (ahahaha. AHAHAHAHAHA) but because of the visa. You can get whatever job you want wherever you damn well please, and yet you still whine like the "international types" are better off than you because apparently the kingdom hasn't been granted to you on a silver platter. Your privilege rankles.

Most of the highest-paid gigs in IR/policy go to people with MBAs or JDs.

The MBA is frequently interchangeable with the MPA/MPP, and it is more versatile/higher paid. The problem is that MBAs at equivalently prestigious institutions are hella more competitive and expensive, and most of your MPA classmates simply wouldn't be able to do one due to one or both of those reasons.

Most everyone else gets some boring office job that is vaguely policy-related, but no more interesting in practice than working at Dunder Mifflin or wherever the dude from Office Space worked. Your fancy degree does not get you out of cubicle hell. And your dreams of changing the world will be crushed when you realize the reports you're writing on healthcare policy are being sold to private companies and financial investors so that they can make even more money.

If you didn't know this to be the case going into your MPA program, you didn't belong in the program. If you are still complaining about this, you don't belong in the field. This field is for serious people doing serious work, and overgrown children playing at "saving the world" and satisfying their undeservedly large egos are wasting everyone's time.

The rest of it is true and in principle the post is correct. But holy shit do you people shoot yourself in the foot with the throwing everyone under the bus and saying stuff you must know is wrong just for show.

[_kita]

Every once in a while in the forum, I see a post like this. And I feel sorry that you did not have adequate career counseling earlier in your professional development. Some career counseling and field experience may have led you in a better direction. As it is, I want you to realize that your buyers remorse isn't IP/MPP exclusive and you have more choices than you likely realize.

16 hours ago, elmo_says said:

Most of the highest-paid gigs in IR/policy go to people with MBAs or JDs. If you manage to, say, scam your way into federal consulting at Deloitte you'll be getting paid 30-50% less than your similarly-credentialed colleagues with MBAs.

Yes, jobs for those with the MPP can also be taken by people with an MBA/JD/MPA/ MHS/ etc. It is very common, but guess what-  that's not MPP exclusive. Any and every job posting for a higher degree of education has a long list of "equivalent degrees" and some of those degrees are inherently worth more salary-wise. That's just the way it is. Someone with a business or management focused career will often get a "leadership" salary boost earlier in their career. @ExponentialDecay spoke well to the MBA drawbacks. Furthermore, at least in the public sector jobs I've seen, MBA holders raise quicker, but they also hit a ceiling quicker - stuck in those cubicle jobs you seem to dislike. Those that break through it are usually dual degree holders with another public sector specialty.

16 hours ago, elmo_says said:

Though I couldn't have predicted this when I enrolled, federal hiring is an absolute shitshow right now, or at least more so than usual - mass hiring freezes, extreme uncertainty about future staffing levels, long backups with security clearances. That's assuming you want to even work for this administration.

Absolutely. You are right. And if your assertion was correct that DC jobs is the only option, this would be horrid. However, that is a fallacy that people usually fall into when they're around the DC area.  At least half of my cohort thought that Maryland, DC. was the end all be all... unless they came from another state capital. They then started looking at Harrisburg, Tampa, etc. Or they started networking with their overseas practicum/internship experiences for jobs. This would be more accurate if you said that jobs rarely exist in rural America. Because that is true.

 

15 hours ago, elmo_says said:

A lot of the most prestigious-sounding jobs for pure IR/policy people have crappy salaries (most non-profits or working on the Hill) or no benefits (STCs at the World Bank and IMF), and the only ones who can take them are the rich international types and some Americans whose parents subsidize their lifestyles. 

The truth is, we all start somewhere. If you don't like where you begin in the agency, work your butt off to get skills to raise you higher, quicker. Quick short story, I'm from good ol' fashioned American small town poverty. My parents certainly didn't help with anything since I was 17 and graduating high school. They couldn't afford it. After my second masters, I started at a lowly salary of $46,500. But I'm okay with that. I have enough to keep a roof over my head while starting at the bottom in a new area of my field. With the growth in my company, I will be in a new position sometime next year between $55-65k, and at the 5 year mark, should be eligible for jobs between $70-85k. Is it a lot? Maybe not for having 2 masters, but by American middle-class standards, yes. I'm certainly making more than my parents at my age! I don't expect my graduate degree to get me those jobs though. My masters degree got me in the door with this one. What will increase my job potential is taking every training, working quicker (and quieter) than a lot of my co-workers, being personable with everyone, and sharing my ideas for growth. I've been here for 4 months, and the Chief Program Officer and my department director are looking out for jobs for me internally. They're interested in having me at the management table as much as I want to be there. But that has nothing to do with having a masters degree. Everyone in my company seems to have one. It has to do with the hardwork after the degree.

Based on your disdain for your credentials and job, I suggest seeking out a career counselor. You may end up finding something that works better for you. If you see potential at your current job (or similar companies), maybe start building your credentials to work as short a stint in the cubicle as possible.

 

[datik]

I wanted to thank you for this thread as it is always useful to hear a negative perspective to contrast your own desires (bath yourself with a bucket of reality), as well as hearing the excellents counter-points provided above. 

What I take from this discussion is that you cannot get an MPP and expect to get rich (even if Ivy League, etc.), so be very careful when taking on debt. Also, that there are opportunities but one should be very clear in the kind of jobs/direction you want to go (the more specific the better), and if not, you should take career counseling opportunities very seriously.

Cheers,

[Nico Corr]

I will be applying to three programs in D.C, which I suspect house your "IR/MPP" program. I enter this process knowing full well nothing is promised to me once I graduate. I know someone who got admitted to one of these programs, and in the middle of his second semester had the epiphany you had, and transferred to a much cheaper online program. Graduate school is almost just as big  a commitment financially and time wise as Law or Business school. You should go in with the understanding that there is a 50/50 chance you will be taking on considerable debt, and your career prospects will be at the mercy of the job market. That's fine by me, and I have accepted the fact that I will have to take on at least a good 70-80K in debt to complete my degree. As far as the living in DC, I have lived in the DC area all of my life, and it is much more urbane than you make it out to be. I am sorry that you haven't  gotten the career outcomes that you were hoping for right away. I can only hope that I can get into the IR program in DC that I want, and that worst case, I have the same regrets you do!

Edited October 2, 2017 by Nico Corr

[went_away]

As I always tell people...the following factors matter much, much more than a fancy master's degree: veteran's preference, security clearance, cyber skills, industry experience/credibility, your fraternity brothers/sorority sisters.

Also, expected salaries are WAY out of whack with full-freight tuition at top schools. Nobody should be paying the outrageous sticker price for the shimmering, hazy dream sold by schools.  

So sure, go to the fancy school (with a scholarship of some kind!). But also do the following...gain experience and credibility in a particular industry. Get a security clearance. Build your network. Pick up a side skill or three along the way (cyber, bio-security, PMP, training). Be willing to change jobs, and often. Play hard ball in salary negotiations. Build in side gigs. Consider going into business for yourself. 

On leaving DC....well, I would say NYC is an even better market, but it's true that these degrees don't carry much weight away from the east coast. I would suggest making the move once one is a little more established and with a more recognizable/traditional sounding job title. 

[elmo_says]

All right thanks for the responses everyone. 

A few clarifications. @ExponentialDecay - I hadn't intended to disparage non-Americans, and I recognize that many feel trapped in the STC cycle at IGOs precisely because of the visa situation. But I would actually consider that to be another example that the false promises that these programs make to students about their employability post-degree. It's certainly been a source of complaint amongst some of my non-American friends, especially the few who aren't getting any parental support.

I won't get into the MBA stuff too much, because to some degree that was just me whining, and people are right to say that those programs are much harder to get into and often more expensive. But I would argue that the financial ROI is much higher (which is what I'm talking about here), especially given that if you pay sticker at any of these IR/policy programs (which most people do) and have no family money you will be trying to pay off 6-figure debt with a mid-5-figure job. Yes we will get raises, but few of us will ever catch up to MBA people getting 100-120k right out the gate. 

And yeah, the "changing the world" bit was a turn of phrase, and a tongue-in-cheek one at that.** I've always been a more cynical/skeptical type and actually did a lot of research on these programs before going to school. In addition to time spent on gradcafe under another username, I did a lot of "networking" interviews with graduates of various programs. I had no illusions that someone was going to appoint me to a top role at UNDP right out the gate, but I also didn't think that so many of my classmates and I would be working for parasitic boutique consulting firms selling our research to questionable elements in the private sector just to pay the bills, or that many more of my classmates would be stretching their loan repayments out to 25-year periods just to take the more interesting/altruistic policy jobs.

Finally, lifestyle. What did I expect? Well, I would have expected to be able to afford a studio apartment in a decent neighborhood by this point without sacrificing all my other financial goals, now that I'm a certified adult with a fancy master's and a solid job. If you're single (i.e. no one to split the rent with), financially independent, and have IR-masters level debt in DC, that's very hard to accomplish if you're being smart about long-term finances. This is why you see so many Washingtonians with good jobs living with multiple roommates into their mid-30s. It's also why you meet a lot of otherwise smart/responsible people who casually mention their credit card debt. There was an interesting Washington Post article the other day about how DC is the most indebted place in the US, in terms of student loans at least.

Look, you can disparage me and say I don't belong in this city or that I clearly was naive or stupid upon entering my program. But I wrote my initial post the day after I attended a party with a lot of my fellow alumni who were basically all complaining about some combination of their jobs, their loans, how broke they are, etc. I've had a lot of friends sheepishly admit they often wonder if it was worth it. And most of these people have jobs at name-brand places like the World Bank/Ashoka/Eurasia Group/PwC etc.

I think there are definitely cases where these degrees are worth it. But I would argue those cases never involve taking on massive debt and I'm hoping to urge current applicants to be a little more skepitcal about what these schools' marketing departments advertise. 

 

**Actually, one of the things that bugs me most about DC is how important everyone thinks their jobs are, but that's a tangent for another day.

 

Edited October 8, 2017 by elmo_says
Deleted unnecessary quotation box

[ExponentialDecay]

@elmo_says I'm sure your friends would be pleased to know that you're on here calling them "rich international types". Friends that talk shit behind your back are the best type of friends. I'm not sure why you're salty at being disparaged for trying to make your personal dissatisfaction into some kind of social critique. If you're going to make some kind of inequality of opportunity argument, at least start by not shitting on people who are more disadvantaged than you. 

The reality for "international types" especially at IOs is that the lack of a recognized western postgraduate degree makes what little career progression there is much harder. Most of these people already have a master's, in something employable like finance or engineering, and are overqualified when they enter MPAs, if they do.

 I had no illusions that someone was going to appoint me to a top role at UNDP right out the gate

That's not the point. The point is that a top role at UNDP isn't saving the world either. The international public sector mostly facilitates the work of others - the private sector, academia, local government - and sometimes that facilitation is vital, but that's all it is. We don't have the deciding vote. This and the small anecdote above is why people and adcoms strongly recommend work experience in the field before applying to these programs, and why prospective applicants shouldn't assume that work experience is just a checkbox for the plebs whereas they, with their numerous internships and high GPA, are obviously exempt. No amount of informational interviewing or whatever it is you did will teach you the realities of the field. This advice is given precisely to avoid wide-eyed neophytes graduating only to be surprised that they have to collaborate with "questionable private sector elements" - the very questionable private sector elements that it is the purpose of your professional life to serve. In the ideal, governments don't serve governments. Governments serve the people. 

I never listen to people bitching at parties. Few people are able to be objective about their lives, much less compare against any reasonable counterfactual, and lots of people enjoy complaining. You can't build your life according to what other people say. This is a brutal, highly political field where there is no easy answer to anything. Everyone has their own path, which often leads to the exit. If you're doing this because you're naive or because you just want a stable job, get an HVAC license. Gives you more time and money to pursue either avenue.

btw DC studios in the ~1200 range are totally feasible. 

[elmo_says]

@ExponentialDecay You're working pretty hard to turn my comments into some kind of screed against non-Americans, which was not remotely the intention of my original post. As I said in my follow up, many of the international students from my program will be the first ones to complain about how the difficulty of getting sponsored for a visa has hampered their career prospects in DC. The ones who took out loans are in the worst position because they need to earn American dollars for as long as they can to pay them off, even if they'd rather return home.

My goal here is not to talk shit behind my friends' backs, but rather to share the perspective of a somewhat recent graduate who hasn't become a cheerleader for the program, because that's what most applicants are going to encounter if they go to admissions events or ask to be put in touch with alumni. Do you really think that anyone who is unhappy with their IR master's experience is just a pathetic whiner? I'm not sure why you're so defensive about the fact that I am suggesting current applicants think long and hard about the financial trade-offs of these kinds of degrees. If money were no object, most of my points would be moot.

Also, you assume I applied straight from undergrad, but I actually entered my program in my mid-20s after two full-time jobs, one in the private sector abroad (not teaching English, FWIW) and one at a non-profit in a major US city. I had never worked in Washington, DC, though -- but if I had been able to achieve career success in this town before the degree, why would I have ever gone back to school?

I was hoping to use the master's to go from working with individual groups on the local level to effecting broader changes at a higher-level in my particular policy area. Maybe I was naive about what I as an individual would be able to achieve, or about how my stress about debt would stop me from pursuing more impactful policy jobs**. But I bet a lot of current applicants browsing gradcafe are equally naive, if not more so, considering how many classmates I had who came straight from undergrad and took out 6-figure loans. The point of my post was not to insult your life choices, but to provide a critical perspective for current applicants to consider. 

 

**I wasn't disparaging the private sector writ large. But I'm not sure how you can spin selling reports on healthcare policy so that hedge funds and major banks can know whether to invest in Aetna and Humana. Because that's the kind of work that a lot of "boutique consulting firms" in DC are doing, and it's where a lot of my classmates have ended up.

[DevinMiles]

I am actually extremely surprised by some of the responses to Elmo Says. As someone who has worked several years in the DC area, I can say that the depiction of the work/life/post-graduation scene in DC is extremely accurate. Those who say, "nahh... it's not that bad.. " with a load of debt are not being honest. Yes, YMMV with your graduate degree, but this is overall a very truthful post.

ExponentialDecay's rantings are not helpful. It portrays living in DC with debt as far easier than the reality. It portrays everyone as knowing exactly what the outcome of their degree will be. And attacking the person posting is certain never helpful. Having that rant as the first response took this thread into a weird direction since this is a very helpful post.

Thanks a lot, Elmo Says. It's unfortunate that you had to put up with some odd behavior on here, but your comments are appreciated and will likely be of great help to new applicants.

[ExponentialDecay]

@DevinMiles I don't have debt. I don't believe I ever referred to the ease or difficulty of living in DC with debt, or to debt at all. I wouldn't know.

My problem with these kinds of posts is the mix of accurate and inaccurate information, like I said. If OP wasn't shitting on rich international types, making vast but unsubstantiated claims about everyone's ability to afford some unquantifiable standard of living in DC, and complaining that the work doesn't suit them and therefore shouldn't suit anybody, I'd have no issue with it.

If my "rantings" are not helpful to you, you are welcome to ignore them.

Edited October 22, 2017 by ExponentialDecay

[DevinMiles]

You need to read your first response again- where you write about the ease of living independently in DC, shopping at Whole Foods, and going out "several times a week." Your debt-free situation is irrelevant. The original post is about people who have debt.

You seem to be obsessed with the OP's comments on "rich international types" for some reason and are ignoring the substance of this helpful post. I will ignore your rantings and advise others who read this thread to also ignore them since it detracts from the excellent comments made by elmo_says.

Congratulations on reaching 624 posts, even responding to mine within one hour. However, next time you should consider whether posting is actually helping anyone on here- especially new applicants for these programs. It seems like your rants are for no one but yourself, especially as they present a distorted view of the situation in DC for recent graduates.

elmo_says: Thanks again for a great post. It is definitely one of the best posts I have ever read here on Grad Cafe.

[tairos]

I'd agree with the general thrust of the post.  I elected to enter one of these programs with my eyes fairly open (and with consequent serious misgivings), but my case is a bit different than the norm here.  If I weren't military affiliated, I wouldn't have done it.  As it is, it'll serve as a slight boost to my prospects within the uniformed and non-uniformed DoD apparatus, and as a fallback should I finally have my fill of that benighted world.  

Unless you've already got an 'in' or edge like an active security clearance, military service, peace corps service, or some serious connections, I couldn't possibly recommend this career path.  Even in my relatively propitious circumstances I worry about my prospects -- I certainly don't envy the majority of my cohort who are starting with considerably less.  And as the OP said, the vague luster of the 'field' notwithstanding, there's little adventurous or glamorous about the administrative makework that most 'international affairs' jobs entail.  I'm fairly surprised that these programs are able to attract as many applicants as they do, to be honest.

Edited October 23, 2017 by tairos

[went_away]

1 hour ago, tairos said:

I'd agree with the general thrust of the post.  I elected to enter one of these programs with my eyes fairly open (and with consequent serious misgivings), but my case is a bit different than the norm here.  If I weren't military affiliated, I wouldn't have done it.  As it is, it'll serve as a slight boost to my prospects within the uniformed and non-uniformed DoD apparatus, and as a fallback should I finally have my fill of that benighted world.  

Unless you've already got an 'in' or edge like an active security clearance, military service, peace corps service, or some serious connections, I couldn't possibly recommend this career path.  Even in my relatively propitious circumstances I worry about my prospects -- I certainly don't envy the majority of my cohort who are starting with considerably less.  And as the OP said, the vague luster of the 'field' notwithstanding, there's little adventurous or glamorous about the administrative makework that most 'international affairs' jobs entail.  I'm fairly surprised that these programs are able to attract as many applicants as they do, to be honest.

Strong endorsement of this post with one disagreement: I've had tons of adventurous opps as a result of my Fletcher education and expect these to continue.

[DevinMiles]

You should take any comments by went_away on Fletcher with a very big grain of salt since he is known to make wild exaggerations about the school.

[went_away]

4 hours ago, DevinMiles said:

You should take any comments by went_away on Fletcher with a very big grain of salt since he is known to make wild exaggerations about the school.

Reported (and a baseless, personal attack as a quick search of my post history will confirm). 

Edited October 24, 2017 by went_away

[Sigaba]

On 10/9/2017 at 1:04 PM, elmo_says said:

@ExponentialDecay You're working pretty hard to turn my comments into some kind of screed against non-Americans, which was not remotely the intention of my original post.

Agreed.

On 10/1/2017 at 2:26 PM, elmo_says said:

...some limited help from my parents... and some Americans whose parents subsidize their lifestyles.  

 

On 10/7/2017 at 5:45 PM, elmo_says said:

It's certainly been a source of complaint amongst some of my non-American friends, especially the few who aren't getting any parental support.

My question is why did you pick a self-infantalizing (if not revealing) alternate screen name when you could have gone old school with Orestes?

You have a degree, you have debt, you're unhappy with your circumstances and your city. Your friends have many of your concerns and your complaints (if not your confidence--unless they know you're here, airing their dirty laundry). Your parents can't (or won't) support you. What's the next step?

[DevinMiles]

Reported?

 went_away, you aren't seriously trying to get a moderator to remove posts that disagree with your unusual efforts to promote Fletcher, are you?

And personal attack?  This forum is intended to help applicants with objective views of schools. Obviously some former students may use it more for advertising to promote their schools rather than be objective about the pros and cons of their school, but it is an open forum in which other users can counter such opinions which many readers see as exaggerations.

 

 

[TakeruK]

Moderator note:

Just a friendly reminder that users are certainly welcome to disagree with each other. Respectful discussion is one way to provide valuable insight and knowledge.

However, I will remind everyone to refrain from discussing other users. If you disagree with someone, respond to their thoughts/ideas/arguments. Counter their opinions with your own opinions of these ideas, but not your opinion of other users.

To be absolutely clear, for this specific example: If you believe one user is not providing an accurate description of a program you know about, then write about your own experiences with the program. But it is not appropriate to make comments to the effect of "Don't believe user X". Instead, say, "I disagree with X because ABC" for example.

[elmo_says]

 

Thanks for coming to my defense...some of you.

@ExponentialDecay - I'm confused. You have no debt, but claim to not have come from a wealthy background. Did you even do one of these master's? If so, it sounds like you were one of the lucky minority who got a full ride or who managed to save up a lot of money before going back to school. That's great for you. But your experience is not the norm and it's ultimately irrelevant to my post, which was aimed at people who are considering taking out huge loans on the promise that these degrees will provide amazing career opportunities or deep life satisfaction, making the insane monthly payments "worth it." Some people achieve great success after these programs, but from what I've seen, most people's experiences are more mixed, which can be a hard outcome to accept after spending 100k plus interest on an advanced degree. 

@Sigaba- My screenname is based on a childhood pet (RIP), feel free to over-analyze that if it pleases you. And yes, my parents provided some support for me during my graduate studies (maybe like 5-6k over two years?). But they are not subsidizing my rent years after graduation, which is the case for a few of my classmates, the very same ones who are able to take 50k/year jobs and live in $1,500/month studios after obtaining ludicrously expensive master's degree.

 

I'm not sure why some are interpreting my posts as talking shit about my friends, especially as I haven't even mentioned which grad program I went to. Also, I'm not intending to malign those who are receiving parental support deep into adulthood, or those who come from wealthy backgrounds. I come from a middle/upper middle class background myself, and have been given a lot of things in life I didn't earn (#whiteprivilege). And if my parents offered to pay off my grad school loans, or to provide me with ongoing rental assistance, I doubt I would hesitate to accept. But I want to help people who do not have significant family financial support to understand what they're competing against. 

 

[LLCoolJ1585]

Theres a ton of truth to what the OP is saying. I don’t think most policy folks are risk takers, but the only modification I would make to his/her statements are regarding, non-binding risk tolerance. So, Harvard is Harvard, UC-Berkeley is UC-Berkeley, Princeton is Princeton, and University of Chicago, is University of Chicago. Most of these schools, you can leverage your degree to get into spaces in certain cases, where the jobs are high paying, but I feel the key is by doing so early (preferably while in school). Also, with that, some people just are interested in the quality of the work, and not the level of income they make. In that case my statements would be worthless to you. Me personally, I’m taking the entrepreneurial route with my degree. I have the name, now, I’m looking for (big) investors who typically care where you went to school. Wish me luck. 

[Nico Corr]

On 10/23/2017 at 12:14 PM, tairos said:

 

Unless you've already got an 'in' or edge like an active security clearance, military service, peace corps service, or some serious connections, I couldn't possibly recommend this career path. 

You can count me as an applicant to some of these programs who do not have any of these credentials. I know a few people personally who have careers in the Foreign Service (FSO is my desired career post grad school graduation) but I would hardly consider them "connections" capable of snagging me a job. I have wanted to start a career in international relations since I was 15. Life however had other plans for me, and I was not able to take on the internship experiences, do peace corps, or pursue other enterprises that would directly lead me to that field of work. It's virtually impossible to get a career in IR without connections, or at minimum a degree. What do you propose people like myself do? Give up, find another line of work we will all but certainly hate?

[PublicPolicyHiring]

45 minutes ago, Nico Corr said:

You can count me as an applicant to some of these programs who do not have any of these credentials. I know a few people personally who have careers in the Foreign Service (FSO is my desired career post grad school graduation) but I would hardly consider them "connections" capable of snagging me a job. I have wanted to start a career in international relations since I was 15. Life however had other plans for me, and I was not able to take on the internship experiences, do peace corps, or pursue other enterprises that would directly lead me to that field of work. It's virtually impossible to get a career in IR without connections, or at minimum a degree. What do you propose people like myself do? Give up, find another line of work we will all but certainly hate?

Careers in international relations can be so much more than the State Department. When I was 20, I wanted to have an international policy career, which I saw as meaning to work at the State Department. In retrospect, I realize that was simply because I didn't realize the scope of what was possible. There are myriad organizations in the private sector and civil society that also directly engage in international policy--but without being the target of thousands of bright-eyed ambitious IR students each year.

In addition, saying that you'll "all but certainly" hate any other line of work suggests a lack of exposure and imagination. Try different things. The Foreign Service isn't going anywhere. If you don't enjoy other jobs and fields, you can always try for it. But you may find surprising, serendipitous opportunities that you couldn't have imagined when you were fixated on one vision of an IR career.

[Nico Corr]

10 hours ago, PublicPolicyHiring said:

Careers in international relations can be so much more than the State Department. When I was 20, I wanted to have an international policy career, which I saw as meaning to work at the State Department. In retrospect, I realize that was simply because I didn't realize the scope of what was possible. There are myriad organizations in the private sector and civil society that also directly engage in international policy--but without being the target of thousands of bright-eyed ambitious IR students each year.

In addition, saying that you'll "all but certainly" hate any other line of work suggests a lack of exposure and imagination. Try different things. The Foreign Service isn't going anywhere. If you don't enjoy other jobs and fields, you can always try for it. But you may find surprising, serendipitous opportunities that you couldn't have imagined when you were fixated on one vision of an IR career.

Thank you for this, @PublicPolicyHiring. I didn't mean to come off as having a "lack of exposure or imagination". I realize positions in State, much less as an FSO are extremely difficult to come by. I in all honesty wouldn't mind doing IR related work in the private, NGO or non-profit sectors. In fact, I have been reading a lot in regards to country risk management, and that has piqued my interest. Even getting a position with DHS or one of the other three-letter agencies would interest me. I just took issue with the sentiment of the OP whose post I quoted. I took what the OP of the quote was saying as "If you don't have any of these four things going for you, don't bother trying to get in to the field".  

Edited October 31, 2017 by Nico Corr