lewin

The arrangement where you write but are not lead author isn't completely uncommon but, as others have mentioned, in retrospect there should have been a frank discussion at the outset so you could make an informed decision. For example, my advisor has approached grad students to say, "I have these data but no time to write them up. Do you want to write the paper and be second author?"

You could consider letting this paper go but saying to your advisor, "I really like these ideas and enjoyed writing them up. Is there a possibility that I could have more direct involvement with the followup studies and take the lead on phase two of the project? [insert awesome study ideas here] "


ETA: Also, while this situation stinks because of the lack of transparency, it's not necessarily out of line for your advisor to be first author. Authorship isn't just determined by the writing, but also by providing ideas, strategy, study design, data analysis, etc....

**Ahh!! I ran out of votes before I finished!!**

Thank you for all the great advice. I have done a lot of what you guys have mentioned.

I have asked some of the other students in the lab, and they felt it was out of character and not how they have experienced writing with other professors. The only student that has published with him was his post-doc, but he co-supervises her, so it might be that the other prof pushed for her to be first, or he didn't challenge it at all.

Having mulled what I wanted to do over and over in my head, I felt that it was best to approach the topic (only once) and in a very casual and non-abrasive way. During our last meeting we were discussing the edits on the paper and I approached the topic is probably the most awkward and embarrassing way, but I simply said (something to this effect):

Me: I hate to bring up this type of conversation and I don't mean to be confrontational, but the authorship on the paper seems to have changed. Based on our original conversation about me gaining more publications, I had thought we agreed that I would be first author (insert a variety of faces where I smile, squint, bite my lip, and turn red)
Prof: Oh, what happened to the authorship?
Me: Well on my draft it went me, you, prof x, prof y, lab associate.
Prof: what is it now?
Me: you, prof x, prof y, lab associate, me
Prof: Oh, well....someone else must have changed it ***NOTE: this is to my knowledge impossible, as both the track changes edits from the other prof had the authorship this way with no edits***
Me: Oh...okay. Well do you-
Prof: (interrupting me) In some fields it's an honor to be last author it denotes being the main contributor to the project.
Me: Oh...like a PI being the boss over the lab he supervises?
Prof: Yeah. So it can actually be a compliment.
Me: Oh, well...I was hoping I would be able to put this in as a first author pubble, for scholarships- to increase my publication record and competitiveness.
Prof: They don't look at authorship- they just look at research work. They won't care that you're not first author.
Me: Oh. Okay...

And so I left it. I got the feeling that he wasn't going to change, nor actually admit that he changed it. I didn't want to push it forward and will just remember in the future tobe really clear about this sort of thing. I learned a lot in this...but I do feel this must happen to a lot of students. I kind of feel he knows I am a bit of a push over (he called one of the other girls in his lab not tough enough to be an academic)...and I get the feeling he gets the same vibe from me.....oy!

Thanks for the support! I wish it went better! Hopefully this doesn't happen to anyone else!

I'm not sure what you mean by saying that you "go out of [your] way hoping to see [your] name on one of his next publications...", it does sound like you are "sucking up" to him and hoping he will think "oh so-and-so is a good student, I'll reward them by adding their name on my publications". This is not how you get your name on publications, and I think most academics would not appreciate this kind of behaviour, as they may feel like their student is using them to get publications.

Usually, on a publication, the people that are co-authors will have contributed to it in some meaningful way -- collected the data, built the instrument, did the analysis, wrote the paper, was the supervisor, and so on. If you want to be on papers, you will have to work on projects, and if that work gets published, then you should be included on the publication. But there would be no reason for your prof to include you on other publications that you aren't a part of (which is what it sounds like you are trying to do, from your post).

Unless you have been working on side projects as well, usually a masters student would try to publish their masters thesis work but this usually happens near the end of the degree or after the thesis is done. Usually PhD students will publish a few papers before graduation, but it also tends to bunch up near the second half of the degree too. In just your first year, it's generally not enough time to have done enough to finish a paper yet!

All of the publications I've been involved in were published after I've finished working on the project. Most of the time, the writing doesn't even begin until the last month or after I've officially left the group! These were shorter, 8-month full-time undergrad co-op placements, and my senior year thesis (8 months, but only part-time work!) and the paper writing process can take quite a long time, so it makes sense that, until the PhD level, most publications come after the student is finished.

I am currently in the process of finalizing my MSc thesis proposal. I will be defending next week.

Over the past six months, my draft reviews have been returned to me plastered in red. Whilst I am very thankful that my supervisor has taken the time to thoroughly review my work and provide (very) informative and helpful feedback, the comments that I am receiving are increasingly aggressive in nature.

Regardless of how much time and effort I invest towards improving my proposal, it never seems to be of sufficient quality in my supervisor's eyes. Sections that were one approved, return with major corrections (I understand that the relevance with other ideas might result in this happening, but this is not the case here). My writing is simply not 'textured' enough. It is not 'tight' enough. It is not 'systematic'.

I have now reached the point where the comments are actually affecting my physical and mental health. I am doubting every single word that I write. I spend hours reading the same sentence over and over again. I no longer take part in discussions with friends or family as I question whether I am actually saying anything meaningful.

I have attended writing clinics, which have turned into lectures on how to deal with supervisors. When I discuss this with fellow graduate students, I get laughed at for being too hard on myself, and that I should take more pride in my work and stop worrying about comments.

I am now contemplating having a discussion with my supervisor and graduate program coordinator in order to determine whether or not I am actually 'worthy' of graduate school. I personally feel that I simply make my supervisor 'look bad'. I still have to conduct my field work and write/defend my dissertation. Whilst I am prepared to work hard and improve myself, I feel it will just result in a lot more hardship or expectations that I can never hope to meet.

I don't even remember why I started writing this, I think it was to get some feedback or simply share it with someone. If anyone can provide some suggestions or anything else, it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

The problem with low GREs is that they might cause people to question the rigor of your undergraduate program. It might be that you are a "poor test taker," but presumably you had to pass many tests during your undergraduate career, and you should have learned how to cope with the stress or whatever your issues were. The GRE is a test you can study for, so perhaps you don't know how to focus your studying appropriately. This might also be concerning to admissions committees. In other words, it is worth the effort to make sure you achieve acceptable GRE scores. They do not need to be perfect, but they should be very close to the average scores for the programs you hope to get into. According to data published by the school, the students in my program had (old scoring) totals above 1400. I don't know if the program selected for high scores, or if all applicants were in the same range, but why give them an easy way to eliminate you?

As long as you satisfy all the requirements of the Sciences Po degree, you will qualify for admission to US schools for graduate study. If you take the time to look at any graduate program's admission requirements, you'll see that the requirement is for applicants to have a 4-year degree from an American school or the equivalent degree from a non-US school -- in other words, a bachelor's degree, from wherever. Frankly, this is something you can easily find for yourself with a little effort.

thank u

Glad you asked! Its basically focused on rural planning and development. You can study this from many different perspectives ie. social sciences, economics, engineering or environmental sciences (depending upon what you studied in your undergrad). A rough idea of what I'll be focusing on is development through environmental conservation.

http://www.uoguelph.ca/sedrd/RES/admission.html

Hey guys,

So I'll have to choose between the major thesis paper (which I assume is the easier route) or thesis option. I have had people tell me I should stick with the thesis based option if I want to pursue a PhD.......is this true? What would you guys suggest? I don't mind research in general, I like finding and analyzing information and drawing conclusions. However, I am worried the thesis option might be too stressful....I have seen my friends panic. Any suggestions?

Thanks

Is the thesis option required for a PhD?

This whole scenario embarasses me terribly (not sure why) but it makes me not want to discuss it with anybody I actually know. So here I am asking for advice from random people on the internet.

Here is the background, I have been admitted to a PHD program beginning this fall (yay!) which requires me to move. I have been out of school for the past two years just working and living like a "regular" person. I am currently working two part time jobs and had planned on working both until the beginning of August when I move and start graduate school again. One of my jobs, I am an administrative assistant at a college (fairly irrelevant) and the other I work as a personal trainer at a gym. I have been working at the gym for the past two years and for the most part I have enjoyed it.

I had already told a number of my regular clients that I was planning on leaving to attend graduate school. I had not told anybody in "management" about my plans yet. I did not feel obligated to give more than a two week notice, as it is not difficult to hire another trainer, albeit they will not be as awesome as me . Also, our company is virtually a revolving door when it comes to "management" positions. I could make you a page long list of the number of managers I had seen come and go over the past two years of employment. We recently got a new guy in our location last week.

This week I started feeling sick on Sunday but kept going to work through Tuesday afternoon. On Wednesday morning I felt much worse and decided to go to a walk-in clinic. I let all of my clients I had scheduled that morning know that I could not make the session because of being sick and I received confirmation that they understood and there was no problem. I got checked out, I had strep throat, highly contagious, was not recommended to return to work until Friday. I made sure to get into contact with everybody I had scheduled for those two days, whether through text or strained phone call (I had lost my voice entirely) to say I couldn't make it and reschedule for a better time. It is very rare I have to reschedule sessions on my behalf because I hardly ever get sick or have anything major happen, it wasn't a big deal.

I was at home Thursday night recovering when I get a call from this new manager guy. He asks me why I haven't been showing up for my sessions. I tell him "I rescheduled all my sessions today I am at home with strep, I am not supposed to be at work." He told me that "no, you did not reschedule." I mentioned I had talked to everybody and worked out the schedule. We went back and forth and he said I was not allowed to reschedule clients without telling him first. In all of the years I had been working there, nobody ever said I had to do that and I never had done that. I was told I had to tell him that I was sick first before contacting my clients. That does not make logical sense to me, since I was meeting my clients when he was not even working. What was he going to do?

In conclusion, the misunderstanding ended in him handing me termination papers that listed the reason of "absenteeism." I never actually missed anything. I feel like the real reason is that we had conflicting personalities and every time we get a new manager they fire somebody to show their power. You may ask me, why does it matter if you were going to quit your job in four weeks anyway?

Well, here is why:

1). What happened was unjust. It was a misunderstanding. He did not even ask the people who I was scheduled with whether I contacted them or not, he said he would do that later, after he fired me. I was accused of something I didn't do. It makes me upset.

2). I feel bad for my clients. I had told them I would train them up until I left. Now, I look like a big fat liar. They got the short end of the stick with this one, abruptly having to change their whole program with no warning.

3). I could use the extra money. I only had two part time jobs. I will not starve or end up in a cardboard box without it but it was going to help cover some things I needed to do. I.E. replaces the blown out shocks on my car, moving expenses, etc.

So what should I do? I know it is not worth throwing a fit over since I am moving in a month but it just feels wrong. Furthermore, what can I do to earn extra income in that time frame? I am trying in mind to think of what I can do for a few weeks that will help with these expenses? Work at a summer camp or something? I don't know. I am kind of put in a bind here.

Paso, The department admitted you so now has an obligation to find faculty for you. If you don't get some news this week, I would pick up the phone, get the graduate chair in the department (the faculty member, not the adminstrator) on the phone and tell him/her your story to indicate - politely - that they are about to put you in a terrible position and must take responsibility for this. You must be active in this and you have a right to be active in this. You should start trolling their website and the university website to start identifying people you could work with so that if they say "Oh, we're still looking..." you can respond: "I am going to email Dr. Smith and ask if he can serve as my new advisor since I need this settled right away." Is it a big program? Their may be a few other people who can stand in for the prof that has flaked out on you. It is always a good idea to apply to a program where you have lots of supervisory options since this can happen in any department if faculty are bad at saying "no" when asked about supervision, or go on sabbatical and refuse to work with grad students (I work with grad students all the time, sabbatical or not), or if someone becomes gravely ill unexpectedly. I switched grad advisors during my PhD and I know quite a few people who had to change (out of duress like you) and landed on their feet just fine. The main thing - don't be passive. University culture often thrives on students who don't stand up for themselves... P.S. Hang in there, you and your spouse will probably be just fine. - Prof. Susan

Thank you all. Please close this thread.

Why not communicate with him frankly?

I just read the thread (because I really didn't believe the thread title), and you folks saying "Just get over it. . ." - F-That. Espcially if there is a contract. I would rather be "slightly uncomfortable" than be robbed of my contribution to your field, and that is exactly what is occuring right now. No way in hell I would let someone screw me like that.

Now maybe I have missed something but I haven't seen anything about where the OP actually addressed this with the advisor and if they have what the outcome was.

First, let me tell you that your story is not believable.

You confuse us with these words:

1. "my manuscript" (title)

2. "our contract with the publisher"

3. "named co-author"

4. "book was written (by me and him)"

5. "advisor published it alone"

All these statements cannot be true simultaneously unless the publisher (ex. Springer) is an accomplice of your advisor
or you are pretending to be an owner of a work in which you have only a marginal or no contribution.


At least, this is the way it appears to us.

Right! I stand corrected - I spaced it that this was a post about Psychology. In many disciplines at most Canadian universities, applicants do not have to supply a GRE score - and Psychology is one of the exceptions. I took the GRE myself and it was a pain, so I'm always trying to help others avoid it when I can - got a bit overzealous there for a minute...

If you're considering a PhD do a thesis because programs will be suspicious about why you didn't.

The thesis process might also help you decide whether to do a PhD: If an MA thesis is too stressful/unenjoyable then a PhD definitely isn't for you. Everybody dislikes some aspects of writing and research but, at the core, you have to enjoy doing it to have any hope of success in a PhD program.

If you're considering a PhD do a thesis because programs will be suspicious about why you didn't.

The thesis process might also help you decide whether to do a PhD: If an MA thesis is too stressful/unenjoyable then a PhD definitely isn't for you. Everybody dislikes some aspects of writing and research but, at the core, you have to enjoy doing it to have any hope of success in a PhD program.

If you're considering a PhD do a thesis because programs will be suspicious about why you didn't.

The thesis process might also help you decide whether to do a PhD: If an MA thesis is too stressful/unenjoyable then a PhD definitely isn't for you. Everybody dislikes some aspects of writing and research but, at the core, you have to enjoy doing it to have any hope of success in a PhD program.

First, I'm going to be very straight-up about the salary issue: Get over it. If you are really passionate about psychology, then you shouldn't even have to worry about that. You're afraid that 60k isn't enough to "live comfortably"? Please. That's more than enough. This culture is so obsessed with money and possessions...it's sad, really. I'm living comfortably on my PhD stipend, and I'm happy with that because I'm doing the work I want to be doing.

Sorry, that issue just gets me going every time. Other points:



That's -0.02. Stop kicking yourself.



Those are actually good. I understand clinical is super-competitive, so maybe I see your concern there, but those are still good enough scores IMO. GRE scores really aren't that important overall.



Did they really laugh at you? That's rude... I had a similar issue going into grad school. I thought, "I want to study brain-behavior relationships using neuroimaging." And I was open to anything within that. But my adviser still liked me, so I got in.



Why not? If you really want to be a clinical psychologist, you should be thrilled about academia. Your job description will be to discover new facts about mental health (i.e. by conducting scientific research) and to communicate those findings with the public through teaching and publishing. How can you not be interested in academia?

I understand you want to focus on clinical practice, but surely you understand that psychology is first-and-foremost a science and therefore will necessarily involve scientific research and teaching...which takes place in academic settings. See my reasoning?

Those are pretty diverse interests and it's not obvious to me how they relate to engineering. Are you considering a career change? The place to get exposure to many areas of psychology is undergraduate work, not master's level work. Graduate work is the time to specialize. You might do well to take or audit a few undergraduate classes in the areas that interest you at the local university to focus in on something specific.

Coincidentally I was talking to a prof today who said he hates these emails because he gets the impression that students are trying to circumvent the admissions process. Even if he's in the minority, prospective students would do well to avoid any hints at this in their emails.

I pointed out that I personally emailed profs because I wanted to see whether they were taking students and save $100 if I knew there was no chance of admission (i.e., cheap not obsequious) and that if he had a current "I'm taking/not taking students" statement on his website it might cut down on inquiries

To clarify something: Psychology is a science that for quirky historical reasons is often situated in the faculty of arts. Some universities practice better labelling and put it in the faculty of science. So think of the two programs as the same degree with an abitrary distinction where one calls it a BA and the other calls it a BSc. The co-op aspect is a significant difference though, so I would decide which to attend based on whether you want to do co-op (and the extra year that it entails).

I know exactly which two programs you're referring to because I'm currently in grad school with two people who have the two degrees you listed (but not the co-op stream). They both got into the same graduate program just fine and the content of their undergrad degrees was basically the same.

Those are pretty diverse interests and it's not obvious to me how they relate to engineering. Are you considering a career change? The place to get exposure to many areas of psychology is undergraduate work, not master's level work. Graduate work is the time to specialize. You might do well to take or audit a few undergraduate classes in the areas that interest you at the local university to focus in on something specific.