Starbuck420

This is a good point and a very likely scenario post-grad for newly minted MAs. Also very good advice about unfunded MAs. If you have to pay for it, don't go. Simple as. on the flipside, I'll just say that I had very little trouble finding sustainable, full-time alt-ac work after my funded MA. everyone's circumstances vary, of course, and it's obviously not a career oriented degree outside of academia, but I don't really have any hard skills or notable work experience beyond teaching composition, and still got a suitable job several months before I graduated. the same is true of several of my friends from the program. so, I think you give really good advice here, but also I think a terminal MA can be relatively marketable with a little bit of showmanship. in short: do not despair too heavily, terminal MAs! I got very gloomy about my career prospects after putting off my PhD apps, and things have turned out fine workwise. anecdotal, of course, but I'm just saying -- it's possible things could work out for you during your weird limbo period. best of luck to all.

lol busted for not actually reading the article. sorry, team

yeah lol this got a brow raise for sure also not to be a huge snob but none of the creative writing professors who talk about realism seem to have any idea of what it is beyond simply "the kind of prose that i personally think is old fashioned and find to be boring." for case in point, see Zadie Smith's excellent and incorrect essay "Two Paths for the Novel." I love that essay, but man oh man, it is so wrong about the history of realism in almost every way

got it, best of luck. IMO, you will be 100% prepared to adjunct comp after an MFA and a few semesters of GA experience totally agree that good writers do not equal good teachers, of course. I do strongly feel that these are not teacher training programs, however, and frankly I respect depts that carve out maximum time for students to write/read, even when this comes at the expense of instructional training (just saying -- more of a general comment, rather than one that's directed at yours specifically)

I don't know of any and I'd be a little surprised if this were a thing, tbh. If you have to teach as part of your funding package, the dept will almost always give you some kind of support -- usually they will just force you to take a semester long "here's how to teach composition/creative writing" class with other GTAs -- but the goal of these programs is to produce writers, not teachers (as you say), so the teaching is always treated as a secondary concern at best. also, the academic job market for MFAs -- even highly established writers -- is truly, incredibly bad, so teaching college (unless you're adjuncting) is almost certainly not in the near future for any of us here, which makes it feel a little bit pointless to spend your time in grad school learning how to do it in general, i think that the wealthier, better-funded programs are going to give you more support with teaching (and indeed, less teaching in general, which means that you can do a better job). I know that Brown literary arts faculty have tended to mentor individual GAs when they have to teach, for example, but this is about as luxurious as it gets in terms of support, afaik tldr -- teaching as a grad student SUCKS lmao, avoid it if you can. having done manual labor and taught composition at a large, public R1 (at different times), I prefer manual labor. by a lot

good luck to all -- Just want to advise against UConn for PhDs and MA/PhDs. Funding is not secure, relations with the faculty are tense, teaching load is 2:2 (and very work intensive, since the curriculum is always changing), everyone's unhappy, and literally no one is getting jobs. Still advisable for terminal MAs simply because they offer full funding, but the situation for PhDs is extremely bleak and likely to get worse. Avoid at all costs, unless you have an incredibly good reason not to happy to answer questions by PM

In the second year of a fully-funded MA right now, and am feeling increasingly burnt out. I've done well in my current program and would be competitive for PhD programs if I ended up applying, but the experience has become so stressful and joyless that I'm starting to consider other options. I was going to apply for PhD programs this fall, but my plan is now to take a year off and reevaluate. I just have no energy left, and the fact that I have no energy left makes me question whether or not this is right for me. Does anyone have experience bouncing back from this type of thing? I used to love doing this stuff, but I really don't love it right now I think that some of what I'm feeling has to do with the amount of teaching I'm doing (2:2 as instructor of record, no prior teaching experience), the fact that we're in a pandemic, and then also a few problems endemic to my current institution, but I also feel like burnout at this early stage is a bad sign

Think of the ROI: give $1.5k, get $60k back. It's pretty much that simple, imo This is a pretty common (and despicable) tactic in the US, where big-name schools will often give MA applicants a token discount in order to bait them into paying 10s of thousands of dollars in tuition. It's cynical and manipulative, but many of these institutions are essentially large corporations, and often behave accordingly I think that people here have given good advice. I too considered this program when I was applying and was sad when I turned down the offer of admission -- and, yes, the token scholarship that came with it -- but ultimately I'm very happy that I made that decision. Based on my experiences in my current program, I think that the stress of taking on that much $ in debt (for a degree with almost no financial value) would have made the stress of grad school really difficult to manage. And then, yeah, you have all that debt to deal with afterward

Might as well go for it! Only way to find out. My sense is that a 3.2 could be disqualifying at some -- many? -- top programs, but I'm also just a jerk on the internet. I know there are others here with more knowledge on the subject If you're up for it, I think it might make sense to apply to funded terminal MAs in addition to PhDs. Funding for discrete MAs is hard to come by, but it does exist, and a high GPA in an MA program would probably mitigate some/most of the effects of a low undergrad GPA. If you're in the northeast, I would suggest UConn, which has good funding for all (lots of teaching attached to that, however). I know that Boston College and Villanova both offer funding, and then, if you're willing to totally uproot your life, there are a few places in odd corners of the country that offer full funding for terminal MAs (New Mexico, Western Washington, and I think one of the UNCs, for example) Unless you're independently loaded, it is generally a bad idea to do an unfunded MA. It's not a degree that's worth the debt, in any sense. The one exception to this rule (that I can think of) would be CUNY, but only if you're an NYC resident (very affordable degrees if you have residency in the city) Anyway, good luck! Again, I think you should definitely apply to PhDs, but maybe try and balance that with a few terminal MA apps if you can stomach it edit: looks like you're in Arizona, so forget all the northeast/NYC stuff, sorry lol. The Columbia comment threw me off

Arguably the most popular subject on this message board, lol my suggestion is to figure out what the monthly payment is going to be on your loans, once the loans are due. calculate this number, take a look long, hard look at it, and ask yourself: is it worth it? how long will I have to make these monthly payments? 10 yrs? 30? will I ever pay them off? it's the sort of program that could burden you with debt for (literally) the rest of your life if you're not careful, so, be careful I guess. Personally I don't recommend it. there are all sorts of problems with the program in addition to the cost, I've heard (profs allegedly tend to favor the people with the best funding, for example)

never said that they lie about it, and never said that they fail to produce or attract good writers

sure, that's true. but my point is just that the decision to attend this particular program is inextricably a financial one, and almost always a bad financial decision at that (unless you're super rich) That doesn't mean it's a bad decision per se. sometimes people go into debt for this degree and get exactly what they want out of it. but, again, it's important just to be honest about the financial costs. If you accept those, then fine. But I think people frequently go into it without a full understanding of what they're getting into. It's usually a horrible financial decision

And even then, it better be a hefty trust fund lol Unless you have access to what many of us would consider to be unlimited wealth, I think that Columbia is basically always an irrational financial choice, though it is one that, yes, occasionally pays off in the form of literary (i.e., not financial) success. If you're lucky enough to have, like, $100k in unearned change lying around (which wouldn't even cover 2 years of tuition, I believe) i honestly suggest you just go buy a house instead The Columbia MFA is just always such a bad investment, even in the rare instances in which it pays off. There's really almost no way to rationalize it from a $ POV

I know Iowa is fully cool with second MFAs, but not sure beyond that. I would join the Draft and PhD Draft groups on Facebook if you haven't already. They'll have more info

This is so true lmao Some of the criticism of Columbia seems like it's genuinely in good faith, but a lot of it seems to be about boosting the self esteem of a small group of recent grads (of funded programs) more than anything else In general, I think it's nice when grads share their knowledge in that group. But sometimes it's clear that the advice they're giving is more about making themselves feel good, and less about, like, sharing useful knowledge or bringing anyone into the loop on a particular issue or anything like that, which is part of why I left in the end. That and I need to spend less time on these forums lol