Rants, Venting, and Speculation

[thehegeldialectic]

4 minutes ago, Halcyon23 said:

Nah, they just have the same last name. 

http://philosophy.ucdavis.edu/people/molyneux

Poor guy. 

[shifgrethor]

5 minutes ago, iunoionnis said:

Poor guy. 

The real question is, would a blind person whose sight is repaired be able to tell these two Molyneux's apart from each other based on vision alone?

[ThePeon]

C'mon Boston University, what are you doing? Trickling out acceptances and rejections, leaving me in limbo...

Edit: And 15 minutes after I post this I get a rejection letter from them, lol.

Edited March 5, 2018 by ThePeon

[Cogitodoncrien]

6 hours ago, Halcyon23 said:

I'm pretty excited about it even though I'm only waitlisted, but that's because a waitlist is the best news I've gotten so far! My AOI is language (with frequent excursions into metaphysics and philosophical logic) so Gilmore and Sennet are the main people I'd like to work with.

How about you? Since you're AOI is mind, I'm guessing Molyneux is a big one for you?

 

I'm interested in Molyneux's work (the professor's, not the Canadian Trump supporter's!), but my hope would be to work with Drayson and Ney.  The thing is, Davis has a lot of people doing awesome research in different fields that overlaps in terms of large, long-term projects and questions.

[Rose-Colored Beetle]

On 3/4/2018 at 4:26 PM, incredulous_stare said:

Is there anybody else coming from a small liberal arts, undergrad institution and having a rough app cycle? 

Seems like it's very hard to get into top 20 PGR ranked PhD programs with this background unless your writing sample is just phenomenal. It's a little frustrating going through this, even though I knew beforehand most people from my institution weren't able to get into those programs right after undergrad. I'm sure this doesn't have much to do with their ability or preparedness (they were able to get into places like Rutgers, Notre Dame, CUNY and UVA after doing a masters). 

I am grateful for my offers from MA programs like NIU and Georgia State , but I can't help but think that where I go for undergrad plays a significant role in my applications to PhD programs, perhaps more than it ought. 

Yes, that's me to a degree. The thing is, though, enchantment with PGR per se is not a good thing, as I've come to understand. PGR is a gourmet report; it's what you look at to pinpoint programs heavy in current field leaders, state-of-the-art frontier research, and strength of placement in PGR's own top-ranked schools. It's a specific purpose.

So unless you have a narrow drive (and a preference for contemporary analytic philosophy, skepticism of the value of philosophical pluralism, etc.), I wouldn't worry too much about being rejected by PGR top-20s. Conversely, I imagine that a narrowly driven student, regardless of undergrad institution, should be able to craft a sufficiently compelling writing sample in that area.

Gourmet is all well and good, but unless I'm on a particular quest for state-of-the-art cuisine, I won't be consulting a Michelin guide.

[MtnDuck]

On 3/4/2018 at 6:02 PM, Cogitodoncrien said:

 

So, are either of you particularly jazzed about UC Davis, and, if so, who are you interested in working with?  My AOI is mind, by the way.

I am mostly interested in ethics (food ethics, pet food, normativity), epistemology (feminist epistemology, testimony), and social/political philosophy (philosophy of liberation, systems of justice) and I said so in my statement. So, I don't know what AOI they stuck me under to be honest! Probably *not* mind though  

If I ended up going there I'd be interested in possibly working with Oshana, Rulli, or maybe even Copp. I'm leaning towards a different school at the moment though.

[be.]

3 hours ago, Rose-Colored Dasein said:

So unless you have a narrow drive (and a preference for contemporary analytic philosophy, skepticism of the value of philosophical pluralism, etc.), I wouldn't worry too much about being rejected by PGR top-20s. Conversely, I imagine that a narrowly driven student, regardless of undergrad institution, should be able to craft a sufficiently compelling writing sample in that area.

Gourmet is all well and good, but unless I'm on a particular quest for state-of-the-art cuisine, I won't be consulting a Michelin guide.

Could you be more condescending?

[Cogitodoncrien]

3 hours ago, MtnDuck said:

I am mostly interested in ethics (food ethics, pet food, normativity), epistemology (feminist epistemology, testimony), and social/political philosophy (philosophy of liberation, systems of justice) and I said so in my statement. So, I don't know what AOI they stuck me under to be honest! Probably *not* mind though  

If I ended up going there I'd be interested in possibly working with Oshana, Rulli, or maybe even Copp. I'm leaning towards a different school at the moment though.

Very interesting. Have you checked out the UC Press food studies journal Gastronomica? I had a short-lived subscription to it which ended only because I didn’t have the money to continue. It had really fascinating papers and discussed issues about food that intersected with politics, ethics, international relations, and everything else under the sun that I never would have thought about before I read it. 

[Rose-Colored Beetle]

6 hours ago, be. said:

Could you be more condescending?

I'm really sorry if I was condescending. I wasn't trying to be mean at all. I find it encouraging to know that even if all PGR-top-20 schools reject a small-school student like me, I still have a chance at a top-tier program (since PGR only measures a very particular type of 'top-tier').

[Neither Here Nor There]

On 3/5/2018 at 6:26 AM, incredulous_stare said:

Is there anybody else coming from a small liberal arts, undergrad institution and having a rough app cycle? 

Seems like it's very hard to get into top 20 PGR ranked PhD programs with this background unless your writing sample is just phenomenal. It's a little frustrating going through this, even though I knew beforehand most people from my institution weren't able to get into those programs right after undergrad. I'm sure this doesn't have much to do with their ability or preparedness (they were able to get into places like Rutgers, Notre Dame, CUNY and UVA after doing a masters). 

I am grateful for my offers from MA programs like NIU and Georgia State , but I can't help but think that where I go for undergrad plays a significant role in my applications to PhD programs, perhaps more than it ought. 

Unfortunately, our system has not rid itself of classicism, seeing as it takes money to do an undergrad at top universities. I wish the name of the university could be erased from the applicant names, but that can't happen because of the letters

[ThePeon]

2 hours ago, Rose-Colored Dasein said:

I'm really sorry if I was condescending. I wasn't trying to be mean at all. I find it encouraging to know that even if all PGR-top-20 schools reject a small-school student like me, I still have a chance at a top-tier program (since PGR only measures a very particular type of 'top-tier').

To be sure, the PGR is biased toward analytic philosophy, but I wouldn't frame it as some narrow ranking as you do, to be ignored unless you have very specific interests. The fact is, if you want a real chance at landing a tenured research position in philosophy, even at a continental school, going to a top PGR program is by far your best bet. If you are more interested in teaching or don't plan on staying in academia, and you aren't interested in mainstream analytic philosophy, then by all means, ignore the PGR (or only use specialty rankings). But, I think most people enter graduate school with the dream of ending up in a tenured research position, and I think people sometimes downplay how much prestige factors into one's odds for securing such a position.

Edited March 6, 2018 by ThePeon

[MtnDuck]

8 hours ago, Cogitodoncrien said:

Very interesting. Have you checked out the UC Press food studies journal Gastronomica? I had a short-lived subscription to it which ended only because I didn’t have the money to continue. It had really fascinating papers and discussed issues about food that intersected with politics, ethics, international relations, and everything else under the sun that I never would have thought about before I read it. 

I have! I think one of the professors at my undergrad (not in phil but worked with the three food ethicists in the phil department...we were a bit heavy on food ethics) published in it at one point. I haven't kept up with it as much as I should have though :/ 

[thehegeldialectic]

16 hours ago, Rose-Colored Dasein said:

Yes, that's me to a degree. The thing is, though, enchantment with PGR per se is not a good thing, as I've come to understand. PGR is a gourmet report; it's what you look at to pinpoint programs heavy in current field leaders, state-of-the-art frontier research, and strength of placement in PGR's own top-ranked schools. It's a specific purpose.

So unless you have a narrow drive (and a preference for contemporary analytic philosophy, skepticism of the value of philosophical pluralism, etc.), I wouldn't worry too much about being rejected by PGR top-20s. Conversely, I imagine that a narrowly driven student, regardless of undergrad institution, should be able to craft a sufficiently compelling writing sample in that area.

Gourmet is all well and good, but unless I'm on a particular quest for state-of-the-art cuisine, I won't be consulting a Michelin guide.

Couldn't agree with this more.

Edited March 6, 2018 by iunoionnis

[Rose-Colored Beetle]

2 hours ago, ThePeon said:

To be sure, the PGR is biased toward analytic philosophy, but I wouldn't frame it as some narrow ranking as you do, to be ignored unless you have very specific interests. The fact is, if you want a real chance at landing a tenured research position in philosophy, even at a continental school, going to a top PGR program is by far your best bet. If you are more interested in teaching or don't plan on staying in academia, and you aren't interested in mainstream analytic philosophy, then by all means, ignore the PGR (or only use specialty rankings). But, I think most people enter graduate school with the dream of ending up in a tenured research position, and I think people sometimes downplay how much prestige factors into one's odds for securing such a position.

I should probably refrain from late-night comments... I feel sort of bad now. I at least shouldn't have presumed incredulous_stare's situation before generalizing.

At any rate, yeah, you can't argue with placement history. I do wonder whether the bias is unwarranted, you know? Like, maybe the 'top' institutions really do prepare better tenure-trackers.

[Cogitodoncrien]

4 hours ago, MtnDuck said:

I have! I think one of the professors at my undergrad (not in phil but worked with the three food ethicists in the phil department...we were a bit heavy on food ethics) published in it at one point. I haven't kept up with it as much as I should have though :/ 

That is a super cool subfield of ethics (one that I think is becoming more and more important), and I respect you for conducting research in it.

[incredulous_stare]

47 minutes ago, Rose-Colored Dasein said:

I should probably refrain from late-night comments... I feel sort of bad now. I at least shouldn't have presumed incredulous_stare's situation before generalizing.

At any rate, yeah, you can't argue with placement history. I do wonder whether the bias is unwarranted, you know? Like, maybe the 'top' institutions really do prepare better tenure-trackers.

No worries man haha. This is why written communication is not the best 

[ThePeon]

1 hour ago, Rose-Colored Dasein said:

I should probably refrain from late-night comments... I feel sort of bad now. I at least shouldn't have presumed incredulous_stare's situation before generalizing.

At any rate, yeah, you can't argue with placement history. I do wonder whether the bias is unwarranted, you know? Like, maybe the 'top' institutions really do prepare better tenure-trackers.

FWIW, I do think the prestige bias in hiring is in large part irrational and unfortunate (at least to the extent that an outsider such as myself can say that), and I do think that, when you leave job prospects aside, for most people the best school for them is not the highest ranked PGR school (or even a PGR school at all). I just think people should also be aware of the prestige bias given the state of the job market, and not confuse what should be with what is.

Edited March 6, 2018 by ThePeon

[thehegeldialectic]

I just think it's pretty ridiculous to think that they key to getting a job is being from a program ranked highly by the PGR.

From what I have personally seen at my own graduate department (and from talking to students about recent graduates), the students who aren't getting placed in programs are the ones who are burnt out, don't like philosophy anymore, don't care to finish, or are otherwise busy. The students who are still working hard, staying passionate, and are excited about philosophy end up getting placed. At the end of the day, it's your own hard work and perseverance that gets you a good job, not going to a PGR top-20 program.

So I would choose a place where you can study for six years and still like studying philosophy after those six years, not somewhere that one thinks will look impressive. 

Edited March 7, 2018 by iunoionnis

[Rose-Colored Beetle]

16 hours ago, incredulous_stare said:

No worries man haha. This is why written communication is not the best 

Either way, it was sort of cold.

Socrates would agree with you... "No one can come to the aid of the written word."

[prtrbd]

3 hours ago, iunoionnis said:

I just think it's pretty ridiculous to think that they key to getting a job is being from a program ranked highly by the PGR.

From what I have personally seen at my own graduate department (and from talking to students about recent graduates), the students who aren't getting placed in programs are the ones who are burnt out, don't like philosophy anymore, don't care to finish, or are otherwise busy. The students who are still working hard, staying passionate, and are excited about philosophy end up getting placed. At the end of the day, it's your own hard work and perseverance that gets you a good job, not going to a PGR top-20 program.

So I would choose a place where you can study for six years and still like studying philosophy after those six years, not somewhere that one thinks will look impressive. 

There is also the matter of where you get placed. There is a difference between immediately going into a tenure-track position at a flagship state school or a top LAC versus bopping around European postdocs for five years.

[ThePeon]

2 hours ago, prtrbd said:

There is also the matter of where you get placed. There is a difference between immediately going into a tenure-track position at a flagship state school or a top LAC versus bopping around European postdocs for five years.

Right. To expand on this point, even if placement overall isn't correlated with the rankings, placement at the positions most (not all) would consider the most desirable is undeniably highly correlated with prestige. These are research positions or teaching positions at prestigious SLACs, and these positions pay the best, are often in the most desirable locations, and, most importantly for many people, leave as much or more time set aside for research as compared to teaching.

Edited March 7, 2018 by ThePeon

[ArendtYouKidding]

Does anyone have any idea what's going with UConn? I solicited several schools on Monday and they are the only ones who haven't responded. I'd like to, y'know, plan my life a bit. 

[Halcyon23]

8 minutes ago, ArendtYouKidding said:

Does anyone have any idea what's going with UConn? I solicited several schools on Monday and they are the only ones who haven't responded. I'd like to, y'know, plan my life a bit. 

No idea. I solicited UConn this morning but I guess I'll be waiting on that as well haha.

[ArendtYouKidding]

5 minutes ago, Halcyon23 said:

No idea. I solicited UConn this morning but I guess I'll be waiting on that as well haha.

At least I'm not alone! Please update if you hear anything!

I hope you hear something good. 

[Halcyon23]

8 minutes ago, ArendtYouKidding said:

At least I'm not alone! Please update if you hear anything!

I hope you hear something good. 

Will do! With at least two solicitations now, hopefully they'll be motivated to send out some information.