Petition Philosophy departments to eliminate GRE from grad admissions requirements

[bluwe]

https://www.change.org/p/individual-graduate-programs-universal-elimination-of-gre-score-consideration-for-graduate-philosophy-admission?utm_medium=email

 

Here's a petition that you all should sign to bring awareness to the harmful consequences of requiring the GRE for applicants. Or discuss the GRE requirement here.

 

Share this link if you want to see change, which has to come from within individual departments.

[hector549]

10 hours ago, bluwe said:

https://www.change.org/p/individual-graduate-programs-universal-elimination-of-gre-score-consideration-for-graduate-philosophy-admission?utm_medium=email

 

Here's a petition that you all should sign to bring awareness to the harmful consequences of requiring the GRE for applicants. Or discuss the GRE requirement here.

 

Share this link if you want to see change, which has to come from within individual departments.

It's not clear that the GRE has much or any predictive power for graduate school performance. And taking it is tedious and expensive. However, specific grad programs (like philosophy depts) are generally beholden to the demands of graduate schools more generally. GRE scores are used to compare students across disciplines for funding allocation, fellowship eligibility, etc. I agree, the GRE sucks. However, even if phil depts want to eliminate the GRE, they'll more than likely be compelled to continue to consider the scores by the graduate school, so I doubt things are going to change anytime soon.

[Duns Eith]

 

[Duns Eith]

Meanwhile, here's a few programs that don't require the GRE:

• University of Wisconsin, Madison
• University of Michigan, Ann Arbor
• Cornell University

[quineonthevine]

UPenn's department recently dropped the GRE requirement from admissions.

[Moose#@1%$]

Oklahoma University doesn’t require it either. 

[Averroes MD]

Not in philosophy, but I think the GRE and standardized testing in general provides one useful data point and accounts for variances in school grading as well as setting a floor for admission. The point about test prep is not really relevant, since you can buy a used test prep book for like five bucks. That's what I did.

I think it's an unpopular opinion, but such test scores do correlate to intelligence.

[RequiredDisplayName]

4 hours ago, Averroes MD said:

Not in philosophy, but I think the GRE and standardized testing in general provides one useful data point and accounts for variances in school grading as well as setting a floor for admission. The point about test prep is not really relevant, since you can buy a used test prep book for like five bucks. That's what I did.

I think it's an unpopular opinion, but such test scores do correlate to intelligence.

Lots of things correlate with intelligence. It does not follow that each of those things is a good data point to consider when trying to determining who has the potential to succeed in grad school. There are many students who get excellent GRE scores, but can't handle grad school. And there are many who get less than excellent scores and do fine in grad school. That the GRE is not a good predictor of success in grad school is reason enough to jettison it as a component of grad applications.

Look, I'm sure a person has to be some sort of smart to be able to memorize a bunch of words and answer multiple choice questions in a timed test setting. But what the heck does this have to do with doing Philosophy? That top departments like UPenn, UWMadison, Cornell and Michgan recognize the uselessness of the test, and its about time other departments caught up.

[Averroes MD]

14 minutes ago, RequiredDisplayName said:

Lots of things correlate with intelligence. It does not follow that each of those things is a good data point to consider when trying to determining who has the potential to succeed in grad school. There are many students who get excellent GRE scores, but can't handle grad school. And there are many who get less than excellent scores and do fine in grad school. That the GRE is not a good predictor of success in grad school is reason enough to jettison it as a component of grad applications.

Look, I'm sure a person has to be some sort of smart to be able to memorize a bunch of words and answer multiple choice questions in a timed test setting. But what the heck does this have to do with doing Philosophy? That top departments like UPenn, UWMadison, Cornell and Michgan recognize the uselessness of the test, and its about time other departments caught up.

I respect your view. In my view though it’s useful as one data point among many. An otherwise stellar applicant could still get in despite a lower score. 

Also I don’t think many people sit and memorize a bunch of words for the GRE. This is not an effective tactic anyways. Rather, people who score higher in this area tend to be those who read a lot over many long years. Moreover, these are words that an academic should be familiar with. 

Lastly, what’s wrong with a multiple choice exam? Seems pretty objective to me. I think there should be at least one purely objective metric with which to compare applicants. 

Edited December 25, 2018 by Averroes MD

[RequiredDisplayName]

1 hour ago, Averroes MD said:

I respect your view. In my view though it’s useful as one data point among many. An otherwise stellar applicant could still get in despite a lower score. 

Also I don’t think many people sit and memorize a bunch of words for the GRE. This is not an effective tactic anyways. Rather, people who score higher in this area tend to be those who read a lot over many long years. Moreover, these are words that an academic should be familiar with. 

Lastly, what’s wrong with a multiple choice exam? Seems pretty objective to me. I think there should be at least one purely objective metric with which to compare applicants. 

I fail to see how a test which only measures a person's ability to take said test is a useful data point for anything at all. 

Considering the most popular GRE study guides out there come with flashcard components is clear indication that memorizing GRE vocabulary is one of the most common ways to study for the verbal section.  I know this from experience. I wrote the test twice and scored 3 points higher on the verbal section the second time around. The only thing I did differently was memorize more terms. And some of the questions I got wrong I did so for no other reason than I did not know the definition of one word. Why is my ability to do research in Philosophy being judged based on whether or not I know what 'Panegyric' means? Could you please tell me what knowing the definition of 'Sequestration' has to do with being a good Philosopher?

That academics would be or should be familiar with common GRE terms is irrelevant. 99% of the terms I encountered on the test I did so for the first time, so I had to start using flash cards to build up my vocabulary.   

In the end, I simply feel that what the GRE measures is not something which is reflective of one's potential to be a good graduate student in Philosophy. For this reason, it should not be looked at when evaluating applicants. 

[Averroes MD]

2 hours ago, RequiredDisplayName said:

I fail to see how a test which only measures a person's ability to take said test is a useful data point for anything at all. 

Considering the most popular GRE study guides out there come with flashcard components is clear indication that memorizing GRE vocabulary is one of the most common ways to study for the verbal section.  I know this from experience. I wrote the test twice and scored 3 points higher on the verbal section the second time around. The only thing I did differently was memorize more terms. And some of the questions I got wrong I did so for no other reason than I did not know the definition of one word. Why is my ability to do research in Philosophy being judged based on whether or not I know what 'Panegyric' means? Could you please tell me what knowing the definition of 'Sequestration' has to do with being a good Philosopher?

That academics would be or should be familiar with common GRE terms is irrelevant. 99% of the terms I encountered on the test I did so for the first time, so I had to start using flash cards to build up my vocabulary.   

In the end, I simply feel that what the GRE measures is not something which is reflective of one's potential to be a good graduate student in Philosophy. For this reason, it should not be looked at when evaluating applicants. 

Like I said, I respect your view. 

Yes you are right that many people do try to memorize words using flash cards. But what I meant to say is that the yield of this is low and will result in a minimal score increase. In your case three points. 

As for the utility of the test my experience has been that intelligent people tend to score high on standardized testing throughout their lives. It’s not just testing how well you take the test but rather it is a measure of general intelligence.

Again, I acknowledge that it’s an unpopular opinion.

Lastly, I do think that an academic should have a large vocabulary and the GRE vocab bank is a good standard.  

 

Edited December 25, 2018 by Averroes MD

[Scoots]

One thing people’s GRE scores do correlate very well with is their belief in the utility of the GRE.

Edited December 25, 2018 by Scoots

[sunrisesunset]

1 hour ago, Scoots said:

One thing people’s GRE scores do correlate very well with is their belief in the utility of the GRE

This guy knows what he's talking about

[RequiredDisplayName]

6 hours ago, Averroes MD said:

Like I said, I respect your view. 

Yes you are right that many people do try to memorize words using flash cards. But what I meant to say is that the yield of this is low and will result in a minimal score increase. In your case three points. 

As for the utility of the test my experience has been that intelligent people tend to score high on standardized testing throughout their lives. It’s not just testing how well you take the test but rather it is a measure of general intelligence.

Again, I acknowledge that it’s an unpopular opinion.

Lastly, I do think that an academic should have a large vocabulary and the GRE vocab bank is a good standard.  

 

The claim that the GRE measures 'general intelligence' is one I've encountered before, but not one that anyone has ever been able to substantiate. What sort of background theory of intelligence must one accept to believe that a standardized test on which writers perform a very narrow set of skills in a set period of time  is a good measure of it? It must be an extremely narrow view of what intelligence is if we are to take seriously the GRE, or any other standardized test, is a measure of it. That the concept of intelligence is complex and one which can  manifest itself is many ways coupled with the narrowness of the GRE should show why it is not a good indicator of 'general intelligence'.

If the GRE was in fact a measure of intelligence, then it would follow that those who score low on it are not as intelligent as those who score highly.  However,  that there are many very intelligent people that do not do well in standardized test situations, and many who do well but ultimately cannot handle graduate school, shows that even if the GRE really did measure 'general intelligence' it does not do so consistently.  It fails to predict who will actually succeed in graduate school, and is therefore is not a useful data point when evaluating an applicant for a graduate program.  

 

 

[Averroes MD]

6 hours ago, Scoots said:

One thing people’s GRE scores do correlate very well with is their belief in the utility of the GRE.

Deleted

Edited December 25, 2018 by Averroes MD
Seems like it’s a sensitive issue for some

[Eheydon]

I know that for me, taking the GRE was very very stressful due to a psychological disability (ptsd) beyond my control. I scored well on verbal, but only 160 on math because during one section the test proctor literally kept yelling at me and triggering me...also I neglected to practice with the stupid four-function calculator, which ended up wasting me a lot of time. I’ll try to re-test, but not sure if I’ll be granted disability accommodations this time, as the paperwork process takes up to three months! ETS claims that they accommodate disabled test-takers but they really don’t. If they won’t process the paperwork in time, I’ll be stuck re-taking without accommodations. Sigh. But according to ETS this is my equal treatment under the law. So yes, while I think GRE scores can be a good measure of intelligence, they are also costly and not  too accessible for lots of people, including people with disabilities. I’d like to see more schools make them optional.