2022 Creative Writing MFA Applicants Forum

[Yellow62]

13 minutes ago, Ydrl said:

I'm not here to argue, but here's what I think.

That's not what we were talking about initially, nor do I believe this was the intention of where this convo was going. I understand that's how it came off, but don't get it twisted. I won't speak for @koechopheon their feelings about their post, but this was not an event free of issue.

First, the main point of my post was to describe how I was abandoned at a party and had to go home with a total stranger. Idk how we got where we are, but lets discuss that for a sec. I was taken home by a stranger who could have easily abducted me, wiht my other option being that I was going to stay with strangers for the night. There were no Uber or Lyft drivers, and I couldn't afford a taxi. I also had work the next morning. End first part.

Second, and I realize this is minute, students pay a shit ton of money to come to school, some go into debt forever and to have their teacher actively cancel for a stupid reason doesn't make me have faith that they're taking their teaching seriously.

Again, I don't care that they are doing drugs. That's not my business, the after effects and repercussions of what they did to me and others are my business...

Idk if you're genuinely this upset that you'd tell me, a BROWN PERSON to drop my dreams as a writer and get a job as a police officer. Screw off with attacking us and tell us how you actually feel and why.

Hey, I apologize for the confusion. I was NOT speaking to your experience. My response was tailored to OP's assertion that breaking ANY GUIDELINE stipulated in a conduct code renders someone worthy of being reported, including SIMPLY doing drugs at a party. Of course, if someone does drugs at a party and ends up behaving in a way that negatively effects others, that's an entirely different ballpark and not what I'm speaking to. 

 

From OP's original post: "Would I report things like that if I saw them? I don't know. I'm not the type of person who goes to those parties, or who people are comfortable doing drugs around." This implies OP would consider notifying school / law enforcement at the mere sight of someone taking drugs, which is legitimately conservative authoritarianism. 

[Yellow62]

21 minutes ago, koechophe said:

Actually, there's a big difference.

We don't actually agree to laws. As much as someone could make the argument that by living in a country, someone is "naturally" agreeing to a law, there's some pretty big issues with that logic. Reporting anyone, anywhere, for raw law violations is another issue entirely because it's imposed on someone without their consent.

When someone has agreed to follow a code of conduct, there's a distinct difference because they offered their consent. I won't say it's inherently virtuous to report them--if someone does so out of vindictive desires, it's not a virtuous act.

But I dislike the notion that there ought to be reprisal against people for reporting things. I also think there should be SOME meaning to the fact that we agree to things. 

 

Of course there should not be reprisal against someone for reporting someone else's actions if those actions are negatively affecting others. That's indisputable. The issue is that you said you'd consider reporting seeing someone taking drugs at a party because they signed a code of conduct prohibiting them from doing so. 

[Ydrl]

2 minutes ago, Yellow62 said:

Hey, I apologize for the confusion. I was NOT speaking to your experience. My response was tailored to OP's assertion that breaking ANY GUIDELINE stipulated in a conduct code renders someone worthy of being reported, including SIMPLY doing drugs at a party. Of course, if someone does drugs at a party and ends up behaving in a way that negatively effects others, that's an entirely different ballpark and not what I'm speaking to. 

 

From OP's original post: "Would I report things like that if I saw them? I don't know. I'm not the type of person who goes to those parties, or who people are comfortable doing drugs around." This implies OP would consider notifying school / law enforcement at the mere sight of someone taking drugs, which is legitimately conservative authoritarianism. 

Oh dear, "Would I report things like that if I saw them?" "Like that" was, if my memory is correct, referring to what I described as the problem, not that OP hates drug use and wants users in jail...

[Yellow62]

32 minutes ago, Ydrl said:

Oh dear, "Would I report things like that if I saw them?" "Like that" was, if my memory is correct, referring to what I described as the problem, not that OP hates drug use and wants users in jail...

Ah, I see why you might have thought that, but they were referencing this quote by the troll: "Well, I for one do fault the tattle tellers, especially with drugs because the law is arbitrary".

 

On Page 12, the troll said 

Everyone will agree you should never rat out a classmate for doing coke. Petty and vindictive. 

OP then replied: 

"Allow me to disprove your skills of prediction: I wholeheartedly disagree with this.

There are good reasons to report someone else for ANY rule-breaking they might do. Assuming they are being petty or vindictive is needlessly judgmental. 

I honestly hate the fact that "don't be a tattle-tale" actually has a place outside of kindergarten. It's childish and stupid. When you sign up to go to school, you agree to a set of rules. Sometimes, those rules are VERY explicit that you're required to report things like that. "

 

This is proof OP believes taking drugs in general renders you fair game to report to the authorities.

Edited January 12, 2022 by Yellow62

[Ydrl]

4 minutes ago, Yellow62 said:

Ah, I see why you might have thought that, but they were reference this quote by the troll: "Well, I for one do fault the tattle tellers, especially with drugs because the law is arbitrary".

 

On Page 12, the troll said 

Everyone will agree you should never rat out a classmate for doing coke. Petty and vindictive. 

OP then replied: 

Allow me to disprove your skills of prediction: I wholeheartedly disagree with this.

There are good reasons to report someone else for ANY rule-breaking they might do. Assuming they are being petty or vindictive is needlessly judgmental. 

I honestly hate the fact that "don't be a tattle-tale" actually has a place outside of kindergarten. It's childish and stupid. When you sign up to go to school, you agree to a set of rules. Sometimes, those rules are VERY explicit that you're required to report things like that. 

 

This is proof OP believes taking drugs in general renders you fair game to report to the authorities.

Hon, I'm sorry but I can't say I see what you are. The thing OP has an issue with is rule breaking and law breaking when we all are supposed to be following the law/rules. We have laws to protect ourselves and everybody else. If we had no laws, there would be anarchy. When we exist in a space that has separate rules, we conform to them as a requirement to enter the space. That's what OP is talking about.

[Yellow62]

8 minutes ago, Ydrl said:

Hon, I'm sorry but I can't say I see what you are. The thing OP has an issue with is rule breaking and law breaking when we all are supposed to be following the law/rules. We have laws to protect ourselves and everybody else. If we had no laws, there would be anarchy. When we exist in a space that has separate rules, we conform to them as a requirement to enter the space. That's what OP is talking about.

Uh...As someone who finds carceral/authoritative punishment in response to drug use to be fascistic and barbaric, I have to say this conversation has been profoundly disturbing. Gonna log off for the day, as clearly we're not seeing eye to eye on that subject. 

Genuinely wishing the best for y'all in the waiting game for results.

[Ydrl]

Today was a disaster, let's just...agree to not talk about this anymore. @Yellow62 @koechophe

[koechophe]

That definitely exploded in ways I never intended it to. I shouldn't have risen to the troll's bait and started this conversation. 

This isn't the time, place, or format for a discussion like that. Sorry for starting it. 

[MDP]

For schools that require an academic/expository writing sample (for TA stuff or otherwise): how important do you all think that is to the overall application? One of my profs told me that they just want to make sure you're not an idiot, ha. Obviously submitting one to UNM that I think is decent, but my academic writing isn't as good as my creative stuff.

[Rm714]

15 minutes ago, MDP said:

For schools that require an academic/expository writing sample (for TA stuff or otherwise): how important do you all think that is to the overall application? One of my profs told me that they just want to make sure you're not an idiot, ha. Obviously submitting one to UNM that I think is decent, but my academic writing isn't as good as my creative stuff.

In Draft, it's been mentioned a few times that the main purpose of the academic sample is for the committee to see that you're capable of critical thinking and analysis. A few people have said it's not wildly important. However, since the schools are asking for it, I would think it should be at least decent, but I think it's safe to assume it's not as important as the creative sample.

Edited January 13, 2022 by Rm714
(edit: clarity)

[mrvisser]

31 minutes ago, MDP said:

For schools that require an academic/expository writing sample (for TA stuff or otherwise): how important do you all think that is to the overall application? One of my profs told me that they just want to make sure you're not an idiot, ha. Obviously submitting one to UNM that I think is decent, but my academic writing isn't as good as my creative stuff.

I think I just used some freshman essay on the level of EU-skepticism in the Netherlands. The writing wasn't very good in it, but I used a lot of data and made conclusions based on the data, so hopefully that's sufficient for them.

[Ydrl]

FSU sent me an email saying there was an update to my application.

The update was that I'm under the MFA department review instead of the initial department review.

For a second, I hoped.

[MDP]

Submitted my UNM app! ? tryna live that desert life

[mrvisser]

1 hour ago, MDP said:

Submitted my UNM app! ? tryna live that desert life

Ever been to Albuquerque?

[koechophe]

18 hours ago, Ydrl said:

FSU sent me an email saying there was an update to my application.

The update was that I'm under the MFA department review instead of the initial department review.

I applied to FSU last year and don't recall getting that type of email, so maybe it's a good sign? Idk. 

[koechophe]

22 hours ago, MDP said:

For schools that require an academic/expository writing sample (for TA stuff or otherwise): how important do you all think that is to the overall application?

I think a lot of that depends on how much the school values candidates that will also be good TA/Teachers during their time. 

Obviously the writing sample is most important, but you can sort of tell how important the teaching bit is from the application. Schools that ask for teaching paradigms or something similar are likely more concerned with your capabilities as a teacher than the ones who don't. 

I was an English major and was pretty big into the "English" side of things in school, and I worked for our writing center and helped with revising the online content. I ended up working alongside a lot of the English professors, so I feel like I have a decent notion of the kinds of things they might look for.

My partially-educated advice is to not try anything you're not 100% familiar with in your critical essay. Just show them that you know the basics and can execute them well. I'd give more attention to making sure the copy is SUPER clean than anything else. 

[MDP]

48 minutes ago, mrvisser said:

Ever been to Albuquerque?

I've seen Breaking Bad so I've basically lived there (/s). But yeah I've been when I was little, haha. My sister was born there. My dad used to do astronomy research out there.

 

[MDP]

38 minutes ago, koechophe said:

I worked for our writing center and helped with revising the online content.

Nice! I worked in my university's writing center as well. Always loved helping students there and watching them improve. So satisfying to see someone become more confident.

39 minutes ago, koechophe said:

Just show them that you know the basics and can execute them well. I'd give more attention to making sure the copy is SUPER clean than anything else. 

Good advice. I ended up submitting an old world politics paper...edited it pretty substantially. Mainly picked it since it had so many sources.

[mrvisser]

36 minutes ago, MDP said:

I've seen Breaking Bad so I've basically lived there (/s). But yeah I've been when I was little, haha. My sister was born there. My dad used to do astronomy research out there.

 

Nice that you have a connection! I've just stayed one night there passing through from Seattle to Texas. Weird how right around ABQ it's beautiful but then you go an hour east and it all turns to one of the most mundane, sepiatone landscapes I've seen. New Mexico just seems so hit and miss from the couple of days I spent driving through it, although that's a small fraction of the state.

[MDP]

6 minutes ago, mrvisser said:

Weird how right around ABQ it's beautiful but then you go an hour east and it all turns to one of the most mundane, sepiatone landscapes I've seen.

Oh for sure. I kind of like drab/spartan settings, though. I live in a more rural area of SC (getting more and more developed, somewhat unfortunately), and I find the giant stretches of nothing comforting somehow. Strip malls and concrete drags and hills. They're the same everywhere.

One of my sisters used to live in California and I loved visiting, but could never live there...too idyllic...too many beautiful people. Need that east coast melancholy and grit, ha

Edited January 14, 2022 by MDP

[Rm714]

9 minutes ago, MDP said:

Oh for sure. I kind of like drab/spartan settings, though. I live in a more rural area of SC (getting more and more developed, somewhat unfortunately), and I find the giant stretches of nothing comforting somehow. Strip malls and concrete drags and hills. They're the same everywhere.

One of my sisters used to live in California and I loved visiting, but could never live there...too idyllic...too many beautiful people. Need that east coast melancholy and grit, ha

Hah, I live in California. I love it desperately. 

[MDP]

4 minutes ago, Rm714 said:

Hah, I live in California. I love it desperately. 

Totally understand, it is gorgeous out there! Probably why it activates my inferiority complex so much, lol.

[decopunkskyscraper]

On 1/11/2022 at 10:58 AM, koechophe said:

The thing that annoys me the most is how prioritized they are in High School (or even middle school) education. Reading the "classics" in high school messes students up bad, in both their desire to read and in their ability to write.

I was a writing center tutor for most of my undergraduate, and so I saw a lot of incoming students. People legit wrote essays that sounded like they were Jane Austin novels, because they had been taught that was the pinnacle of great literature. It's a total double-standard though, because that type of writing will get students bad grades on essays since it's too verbose and indirect. I basically had to un-train them on their writing because they spent so much time in high school reading things that they SHOULD NOT mimic for modern purposes.

I remember one specific individual who attended the writing workshop I managed. She wrote a ~250k word novel that was written just like a romance novel from the 1800s. The writing was extremely verbose and romantic, and she thought it was fabulous because she'd been taught the classics were the best, and it read a LOT like the classics. She was frustrated because no agent/publisher would give her anything but a forum rejection. Extreme example, but I really think that a lot of the mistakes and problems I see in people's writing comes from too much respect for the old ways of writing when if you want modern success, the writing should be modernized. 

I also met so many students who said they hated reading. And I don't blame them, if you've got a 16-year-old reading Crime and Punishment, OF COURSE they're going to hate it. Maybe a select few won't, but the bulk of them will be totally turned off of reading. 

We have a lot of fabulous modern YA pieces that can both capture interest and present profound thoughts. Admittedly, a lot of modern YA tends to be too colored for my taste (when I studied it in undergrad, too much of it was basically like "here's the RIGHT way of thinking, and everything else is wrong, and people who think this way are wrong, horrible people.") 

But there are complex pieces out there that teach people to look at all angles of a thing and teach people to think rather than teaching them to blindly follow. 

/End rant.

You're a writing tutor and English major who can't spell Jane Austen's name?

[Ydrl]

21 hours ago, koechophe said:

I applied to FSU last year and don't recall getting that type of email, so maybe it's a good sign? Idk. 

I hope so. I think we could all use some good news right now.

[Ydrl]

I'm curious, what are everyone's thoughts on the AWP 22 situation? Should it be online only? Remain a hybrid? If it is a hybrid is anyone here going to go?