Anger, anyone?

[delfi]

I was wondering if anyone else felt just plain angry at two things:

1. Schools taking more than two months to revert back to you. Some have actually not taken a decision, and some might have but are waiting for God knows what (the most holy time?) to reject you. I have a hypothesis that you can tell a lot about departments about how soon they intimate their rejected applicants.

2. Those who do admissions on a rolling basis but do not inform candidates that this is their practice. So, I know one of the schools I've applied to does that.. but it took a phone call (international phone call may I add) from me to find that out.

Seriously, people: we paid you good money. Now earn it by keeping us updated on where things stand. If you havent made a decsion, its best practice (in fact you owe it to us) to email us (and not the other way round; and monthly if not fortnightly) to let us know that you havent made a decision, and by when you'd expect to make a decision. And if you feel hesitant to reject us outright, just let us know we are some waitlist of yours. But do some work, and use your fingers to type that email.

At this point, I dont even feel like going to the school from where I haven't heard. In fact, I want my money back. I dont why we guys take this behavior lying down. Some articles in the press need to be published.

Ha, I'd like see how my prof behaves when I am his/her RA, and take my time to revert back with my research. Maybe I come from the private sector and will truly be a misfit in academia.

[Octavia3]

sigh. I am having a whirlwind of emotions right now and anger is definitely one that surfaces frequently. I have yet to hear from my first and second choice schools in my program. I made two trips to each school (at their suggestion) to meet with several faculty members, including my POI at each school. I also mentioned my POIs in my personal statement. If I am not accepted to either school (which is looking more and more likely every day, since some acceptances have already been posted on this site) I think the least they owe me is a personal and prompt response. I don't care if it's two sentences as long as my POIs communicate with me.

If, on March 15, I get two generic PDFs from Graduate School, I am seriously going to FREAK OUT.

[anthropologygeek]

Alot of schools have unofficial waitlists. Also, they may take a second look at the applicants if their offers are turned down. You could always email or call the department but it's only march 3. I would give it till the end of the month.

[delfi]

<br />Alot of schools have unofficial waitlists. Also, they may take a second look at the applicants if their offers are turned down. You could always email or call the department but it's only march 3. I would give it till the end of the month.<br />

AnthropologyGeek.. I know that. Its the process that I am protesting against. When i applied for Masters, I heard back much faster than this PhD application experience. Also, in the past, it was the PhD students who would hear back first, but this seems to have changed in the last couple of years.

I believe they can have a better process in place of intimating applications and having rough timelines in place. I dont like this black hole nature it has taken. And so long as we, the applicants, continue to have a victim syndrome (Oh, this is painful! Oh, this is cruel! etc) this process is not going to change. There needs to be more pressure on schools to behave in a professional manner. And civil society and journalists can do that. Its called public accountability. Right now, I feel my money and effort has vanished into thin air.. and I am not demanding acceptance, I am only demanding a more professional conduct.

[delfi]

<br />sigh. I am having a whirlwind of emotions right now and anger is definitely one that surfaces frequently. I have yet to hear from my first and second choice schools in my program. I made two trips to each school (at their suggestion) to meet with several faculty members, including my POI at each school.  I also mentioned my POIs in my personal statement. If I am not accepted to either school (which is looking more and more likely every day, since some acceptances have already been posted on this site) I think the least they owe me is a personal and prompt response. I don't care if it's two sentences as long as my POIs communicate with me.<br /><br />If, on March 15, I get two generic PDFs from  Graduate School, I am seriously going to FREAK OUT. <img src='http://forum.thegradcafe.com/public/style_emoticons/default/angry.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' /> <br /><br /><br />

I agree they owe it to you - and I hope you tell as many people about your PhD application experience include the $$$ you spent and the time you spent. I am not saying people should not apply for PhDs, but more people need to be aware of how ridiculous this process has become, when there is in fact no need for it to be this way. Sometimes the US amazes me... I mean, the other place which I can think of where service does not equal $$$ spent, is the convoluted health sector! Yes, it works.. but there are terrible inefficiencies in place.

[bm099433]

sometimes I can just picture my application sitting on someone's desk with REJECTED stamped on it, but the person whose job it is to relay that informaton is just a terrible, lazy employee who shows up late, takes 10 smoke breaks and leaves early.... suddenly it's April and they realize... oh crap, better take care of all these rejection letters. probably not the case, but you can see how I demonize others who dare test my patience.

[qbtacoma]

I don't necessarily think a long time frame is evidence of inefficiency or unprofessional behavior on the part of the programs. Indeed, think of all the time it takes to read letters, SOPs, writing samples, and supplementary materials. Now multiply that by anywhere between 50-450 applications. Now realize that almost all of these applications have been read by several adcomm members, and many have been read by all of them. Now include the amount of time they go through to argue about who to admit and prioritizing the waitlist. Now include the time they put in to hashing out financial offers. Also, they ALL have other jobs. Two months sounds fairly reasonable to me.

Keep in mind also that the Grad Cafe members are self-selected among applicants as 1) most anxious, and 2) most driven. Thus it is not surprising that some of them are hearing back in January, because those folks happen to have very impressive hit-it-out-of-the-ballpark profiles (a side benefit to being both driven and anxious - worrying leads to great revisions). Most of us, however, are good, but about the same amount of good as the competition. It is reasonable that it takes some time to evaluate us.

However, I understand that anger is one of the emotions that comes out of anxious waiting. If the application process is really corrupt in some way, then, sure, anger is a logical response. But these programs are investing money and years into students, so it isn't too much to expect them to be measured about it.

[delfi]

<br />I don't necessarily think a long time frame is evidence of inefficiency or unprofessional behavior on the part of the programs. Indeed, think of all the time it takes to read letters, SOPs, writing samples, and supplementary materials. Now multiply that by anywhere between 50-450 applications. Now realize that almost all of these applications have been read by several adcomm members, and many have been read by all of them. Now include the amount of time they go through to argue about who to admit and prioritizing the waitlist. Now include the time they put in to hashing out financial offers. Also, they ALL have other jobs. Two months sounds fairly reasonable to me.<br /><br />Keep in mind also that the Grad Cafe members are self-selected among applicants as 1) most anxious, and 2) most driven. Thus it is not surprising that some of them are hearing back in January, because those folks happen to have very impressive hit-it-out-of-the-ballpark profiles (a side benefit to being both driven and anxious - worrying leads to great revisions). Most of us, however, are good, but about the same amount of good as the competition. It is reasonable that it takes some time to evaluate us.<br /><br />However, I understand that anger is one of the emotions that comes out of anxious waiting. If the application process is really corrupt in some way, then, sure, anger is a logical response. But these programs are investing money and years into students, so it isn't too much to expect them to be measured about it.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

Well first off, reviewing applications is part of their job. So lets quit acting as though they are doing us a favor and going above and beyond their jobs to review our apps. They even take good money from us to get our apps reviewed. Secondly, it doesnt take more than 2 hours to read a SOP, 3 letters, and writing sample of an applicant. Third, none of the programs I have applied to receive 450 applications - most of the schools receive roughly around 50 to 150. So multiple 2 with 100, and you get 200 hours, or 28 working days comprising of 7 hrs each. Four adcom members could review these 100 apps within 7 days between them, if they were doing this ful-time. If half time, then lets say 14 days. Thats about 3 weeks. Anyhow, throw in another 5 weeks for re-reading, arguing, debating, etc!! And as you yourselff noted, not each app is reviewed by every single committee member, as quite a few of these would be rejected in the first round itself. So the re-reading etc i sdone only a subset of the apps. If you think more than two months is reasonable to wait, you've never worked in the private sector!!

Anyhow, I really dont want to nit pick on numbers, etc. Suffice it to say, that there are (Thank God!) some schools who do seem to have their act (and attitude) together and are able to keep the applicants informed of where they are in the decision process, and get back to them in timely nature. Now these are not tier 2 or 3 schools, where you think they receive only a handful of apps. And I have seen a good mix of state and prvate schools in this category ( so please dont revert back saying prvt schools have the money to hire the staff!). Existence of such schools makes it justified to question the processes of other schools

And by the way, I never once said the app process is corrupt. There is a difference between corruption and inefficiency. I said its long drawn out, to the extent that some schools think its totally ok to keep absolutely silent on the status of a candidate's application for over two months!

[fishics]

agree, some schools r really inhumane, including some top ones

I have to say that it's kind of short sighted, as the rejected ones may become good researchers and in the future visit there or even become faculty there... but for now, it's monopoly, so u cant demand better service unless u v got good substitutes (a handful of offers )

[dendrogirl]

<br /><br /><br />

Well first off, reviewing applications is part of their job. So lets quit acting as though they are doing us a favor and going above and beyond their jobs to review our apps. They even take good money from us to get our apps reviewed. Secondly, it doesnt take more than 2 hours to read a SOP, 3 letters, and writing sample of an applicant. Third, none of the programs I have applied to receive 450 applications - most of the schools receive roughly around 50 to 150. So multiple 2 with 100, and you get 200 hours, or 28 working days comprising of 7 hrs each. Four adcom members could review these 100 apps within 7 days between them, if they were doing this ful-time. If half time, then lets say 14 days. Thats about 3 weeks. Anyhow, throw in another 5 weeks for re-reading, arguing, debating, etc!! And as you yourselff noted, not each app is reviewed by every single committee member, as quite a few of these would be rejected in the first round itself. So the re-reading etc i sdone only a subset of the apps. If you think more than two months is reasonable to wait, you've never worked in the private sector!!

Anyhow, I really dont want to nit pick on numbers, etc. Suffice it to say, that there are (Thank God!) some schools who do seem to have their act (and attitude) together and are able to keep the applicants informed of where they are in the decision process, and get back to them in timely nature. Now these are not tier 2 or 3 schools, where you think they receive only a handful of apps. And I have seen a good mix of state and prvate schools in this category ( so please dont revert back saying prvt schools have the money to hire the staff!). Existence of such schools makes it justified to question the processes of other schools

And by the way, I never once said the app process is corrupt. There is a difference between corruption and inefficiency. I said its long drawn out, to the extent that some schools think its totally ok to keep absolutely silent on the status of a candidate's application for over two months!

I think many schools are competing for the same set of top students. Waiting to hear back from the top selections probably adds a considerable amount of time to the decision process for less-than-top students. I doubt that the admissions committee is intentionally making the process as long as possible. Its hard work selecting students. I actually think its good that the whole process takes less than 4 months -- I've had internship/research applications that took longer!

[dendrogirl]

I agree they owe it to you - and I hope you tell as many people about your PhD application experience include the $$ you spent and the time you spent. I am not saying people should not apply for PhDs, but more people need to be aware of how ridiculous this process has become, when there is in fact no need for it to be this way. Sometimes the US amazes me... I mean, the other place which I can think of where service does not equal $$ spent, is the convoluted health sector! Yes, it works.. but there are terrible inefficiencies in place.

Geez! How much $$ did you pay? My application fees were only around $70. That doesn't go far toward paying a group of professors to review my application and a grad assistant to handle everything. I'm glad they take their time in deciding whether or not I'm going to be admitted -- If they wrote me off in less time, I'd be upset.

[TMP]

Honestly? I'd rather not know whether or not I'm on the wait-list right now. I would only be even more anxious... and annoyed at the top applicants for taking their sweet time to "carefully weigh" their decisions among top programs. Better to leave me in the dark and let me "weigh" my own decisions so that when offers actually do come, I'm prepared. And as for rejections? You have a pretty good idea if you are rejected if waitlists and acceptances have already been handed out.

I like the idea of an unofficial list, really.

[skeedy]

I'm glad they take their time in deciding whether or not I'm going to be admitted -- If they wrote me off in less time, I'd be upset.

What an amazing and positive way to put it, dendrogirl!!! This is different than undergrad, and I want my grad schools to really look at if I am the right fit. Sure, waiting is the WORST, but it's so much better than a quick rejection where I wonder "did they even take the time to see if I am right for the program?"

[Starlajane]

I don't really think "anger" begins to describe what I'm feeling...

I applied to two schools--one that I knew would be difficult to get into, the other I thought would accept me b/c it was an MA program. But I'm not angry with the schools for rejecting me; I'm angry with my professors who assured me that I would get in--that I had all of the qualifications, recommendations and a worthy writing sample to apply to and get in to both schools. I wasn't even going to apply but I was so strongly encouraged, and now I feel like such absolute shit because I followed their crappy advice. And all they say is, "Oh, I'm so sorry you didn't get in," so nonchalantly. So now, because of their crappy advice I am in an even worse position to apply for jobs--because, let's face it, "I applied to grad school but didn't get in" isn't exactly encouraging to prospective employers, especially for teaching positions that will want you to get an MA at some point. I should have never listened to my profs.

[wtncffts]

I don't really think "anger" begins to describe what I'm feeling...

I applied to two schools--one that I knew would be difficult to get into, the other I thought would accept me b/c it was an MA program. But I'm not angry with the schools for rejecting me; I'm angry with my professors who assured me that I would get in--that I had all of the qualifications, recommendations and a worthy writing sample to apply to and get in to both schools. I wasn't even going to apply but I was so strongly encouraged, and now I feel like such absolute shit because I followed their crappy advice. And all they say is, "Oh, I'm so sorry you didn't get in," so nonchalantly. So now, because of their crappy advice I am in an even worse position to apply for jobs--because, let's face it, "I applied to grad school but didn't get in" isn't exactly encouraging to prospective employers, especially for teaching positions that will want you to get an MA at some point. I should have never listened to my profs.

I'm sorry that you feel this way, but I think this anger is misplaced. Yes, they gave you advice, encouraged you, etc., but it was solely your decision to pursue graduate study. You're an adult and are responsible for your own decisions.

[psi456]

Okay but the app fee isn't the only thing that I paid for. It also cost me twenty four dollars in transcripts plus a fourth of my GMAT test, so let us allocate another sixty per school plus sending that score plus sending from my credentials file. So it's now about one eighty or so per school. Okay, yes the school doesn't see all that money but they know that it was all spent for this decision.

Additionally, I'm not annoyed that they are still making decisions at this point but they know the April 15 deadline is approaching and I didn't even receive a "we got everything" email for a program I applied to in October. At least don't keep me in suspense for nothing. My em

[psi456]

Ployer is asking what I'm doing for next year before they source me.

Sorry would edit old post but my iPod touch is new and therefore limiting to me. Can't figure out how to scroll down within text box.

[moralresearcher]

Honestly? I'd rather not know whether or not I'm on the wait-list right now. I would only be even more anxious... and annoyed at the top applicants for taking their sweet time to "carefully weigh" their decisions among top programs. Better to leave me in the dark and let me "weigh" my own decisions so that when offers actually do come, I'm prepared. And as for rejections? You have a pretty good idea if you are rejected if waitlists and acceptances have already been handed out.

I like the idea of an unofficial list, really.

It could be that they aren't weighing their options, it could be that they're on a waitlist at a different program. Of course they aren't going to give up their admits to program A if they're waiting for a more-desired slot in program B that applicant X is holding onto until they hear if they're off the waitlist at program C that applicant Y is holding onto until they hear back from program D and so on. It's a giant domino effect that will sort itself out in time. Just chill. Yeah, the waiting sucks, and yeah, I want to be taken off the waitlist that I'm on, but I understand that I'm not the only person involved here, so I'm being patient. In the grand scheme of life, 4 months is really not that much time.

[wtncffts]

In response to the 'length of time' argument, I'd also suggest that it doesn't matter when you, specifically, submitted your application. Again, that was your choice. The deadline is what matters; I assume that, in general, schools don't even begin the application review process until the deadline has passed, and, as someone else said, they do have other duties besides.

God knows I've made my frustrations with the process clear in other various threads on this forum, but I don't buy some of the justification for the 'anger' here.

[Starlajane]

I'm sorry that you feel this way, but I think this anger is misplaced. Yes, they gave you advice, encouraged you, etc., but it was solely your decision to pursue graduate study. You're an adult and are responsible for your own decisions.

I have every right to be angry with my profs for giving me some very bad advice. I grew up being taught that you are just as responsible for the advice that you give as those are for listening to bad advice. Moreover, it was not "solely" my decision: I was very heavily encouraged and influenced by them to pursue graduate study. I wouldn't have pursued it if they hadn't encouraged me to do so.

[wtncffts]

I have every right to be angry with my profs for giving me some very bad advice. I grew up being taught that you are just as responsible for the advice that you give as those are for listening to bad advice. Moreover, it was not "solely" my decision: I was very heavily encouraged and influenced by them to pursue graduate study. I wouldn't have pursued it if they hadn't encouraged me to do so.

I'm not sure in what sense you mean 'right', but I'd say of course you're 'allowed' to be angry. I can't and don't want to constrain your emotions; I'm only suggesting the reasoning for your anger is flawed. People may be responsible for their own advice; that doesn't make them responsible for actions taken, as a result of that advice, by consenting, autonomous, and informed individuals. And I'm sorry, but unless your profs somehow coerced you forcibly to apply to grad school, it was solely your decision. You're not a child: you can't make the 'they made me do it' excuse any more. I'm not trying to be personal here, only responding to what you've presented.

[ZeeMore21]

I have every right to be angry with my profs for giving me some very bad advice. I grew up being taught that you are just as responsible for the advice that you give as those are for listening to bad advice. Moreover, it was not "solely" my decision: I was very heavily encouraged and influenced by them to pursue graduate study. I wouldn't have pursued it if they hadn't encouraged me to do so.

I do understand where your frustration is coming from Starlajane...but I don't think being angry with your professors is justified. Last admissions cycle, I was encouraged by a professor to apply to their institution. The professor really liked my work, and I felt good that someone in that position truly believed I could succeed in academia. However, I didn't get into the institution-and though I was upset about the outcome, it never occurred to me to blame this professor. Although your work may be great, graduate programs are VERY competitive. But you can't blame a professor for encouraging you to apply in the first place: I would take it as a compliment that he or she believes you could do well in graduate school.

And interestingly, I took the risk of applying to this same institution again to work with the same professor and got in. Being successful usually requires risk. And although the risk may not work out in your favor, you shouldn't be too hard on yourself--or your encouraging professors--for taking the risk in the first place.

Edited March 4, 2011 by ZeeMore21

[qbtacoma]

I have every right to be angry with my profs for giving me some very bad advice. I grew up being taught that you are just as responsible for the advice that you give as those are for listening to bad advice. Moreover, it was not "solely" my decision: I was very heavily encouraged and influenced by them to pursue graduate study. I wouldn't have pursued it if they hadn't encouraged me to do so.

Remember that many, many strong candidates are turned away. Your professors saw potential in you and told you so, but there's no guarantee of anything in life. It isn't their fault that tight budgets, behind-the-scenes politics, and departmental goals drove admissions decisions away from you. Perhaps it is better that you have been rejected now and have a mere few months delay before pursuing a career, as opposed to spending years and years of your life to wind up without a job. Blessing in disguise?

Also, I wouldn't worry about employers reacting badly to you as a result of this. Life happens. Just say it matter of factly.

ETA: Other people have made the same points above, but I wanted to ask: Do you really think your professors are cackling and rubbing their hands together, saying "Ooh, she fell for it?" I get the impression you do.

Edited March 4, 2011 by qbtacoma

[Starlajane]

I do understand where your frustration is coming from Starlajane...but I don't think being angry with your professors is justified. Last admissions cycle, I was encouraged by a professor to apply to their institution. The professor really liked my work, and I felt good that someone in that position truly believed I could succeed in academia. However, I didn't get into the institution-and though I was upset about the outcome, it never occurred to me to blame this professor. Although your work may be great, getting into graduate programs is VERY competitive. But you can't blame a professor for encouraging you to apply in the first place: I would take it as a compliment that he or she believes you could do well in graduate school.

And interestingly, I took the risk of applying to this same institution again to work with the same professor and got in. Being successful usually requires risk. And although the risk may not work out in your favor, you shouldn't be too hard on yourself--or your encouraging professors--for taking the risk in the first place.

This is a very kind and helpful response, and I appreciate it. I'm not trying to "blame" anyone: I'm angry that they encouraged me to apply but, mostly, that my profs were assuring me that I would get in; I think that is my biggest peeve with the advice, that it was so unrealistic.

And just to understand why I'm so upset: I haven't worked in three years and I passed up other opportunities because my profs were so certain that I would get in. Now I haven't and the response from them is, "Oh, well." I think that deserves a bit of righteous anger.

[jordanami]

I will say that I am frustrated that a school I applied to for a Jan 1st deadline sent an email telling me to expect a decision the first week of March and I still do not have a decision in my inbox. I guess next Monday is still a part of the first week of March, but I would like it if they had a little more sensitivity to the fact that we're all anxious, sitting on the edge of our seats waiting for these decisions. It would have been better if they had told me to expect mid-March and the surprised me with some early news-especially good news!