The 'Am I competitive' thread - READ ME BEFORE POSTING

[JMO]

1) I challenge you to find any people, whether on this forum or otherwise, admitted to a top-tier school (Georgetown, SAIS, Elliott, SIPA) with BOTH a sub 3.0 GPA and no IR work experience. I'd bet an internet nickel you don't find a single one. And the admission statistics these schools publish back me up.

2) It is irresponsible and unhelpful to misrepresent OP's admission chances at the mentioned schools.

Falsely act as though those are realistic targets --> OP wastes time and money applying, and most likely goes o-fer.

Be a "Debbie Downer" (I would say realist) --> OP can either apply to less selective schools* where they would have a much better shot, or improve their profile (get more work experience, take some classes, etc.) and work their way into a top-tier admit a few years down the road.

*OP, look at Institute of World Politics and Maryland - both are in the DC area and are decent IR programs you would be much more competitive at.

The kid has a 3.2 GPA from undergrad so that is not a sub 3.0...and second of all he went to a pretty reputable university in the Middle East, and assuming from his age, it happened at a time the country was heating up (were you their for the war in 2006 btw). So that alone is a decent chance, his Law school GPA may not even matter, since that is not undergrad work and he ended up graduating and passing the bar. The only thing I give you is that he doesn't have the necessary work experience, which can certainly hurt him.

Finally, admission statistic take averages and medians and you are telling me that not one single person from these schools had a GPA less than a 3.2 when applying, cause then I challenge your understanding of what a median actuall is, either way, be prepared to pay me that internet nickel, cause a guy I go to school with here in SIPA had a 3.0 GPA from NYU and got in.

How you will ask, well he did well on the GRE and worked 2 years in Egypt for a non-profit, and was raised in Nepal and speaks like 4 languages...I hope he never reads this, cause then it seems like I am fawning over him.

I am not saying that you are wrong to tell people the truth, but you barely looked at his credentials, and just looked at GPA alone (i think you even looked at the wrong one), probably didn't even know the school he went to and wrote it off. That approach may be fine had he gone to Eastern State middle of nowhere university and got a 3.2 but believe it or not, it matter where you go.

So next time, in an attempt not to blow smoke up someone's behind, make sure to take a proper look at their profile before rendering a judgement.

And I don't want to fight either, it looks like i am losing the arrow contest against you. I am raising my internet white flag

Edited June 12, 2012 by JMO

[MYRNIST]

Hi everyone,

I'm new here and I'm wondering if anyone has a clear idea how "work experience" is defined by schools. Is it consistent experience (i.e. worked/served a # of years without a gap), and if it isn't, how much does that hurt your application overall? If my best bet is to just call individual schools and ask, please let me know!

I worked throughout undergrad as an Arabic tutor (plus a yearlong study abroad where I worked and volunteered in Cairo), but after graduation, I've only got about 2 years of "professional experience." It's all public service/sector work (a civilian position at JAG, Americorps, and the Red Cross), but I'm worried that it won't be international enough or consistent enough (there's a three month gap between JAG and the Red Cross because I took economics classes then).

I'd like to go back into int'l development. I presented a research project about the work I was doing in Cairo and I'd like to follow through with it, post-revolution.

Thanks ahead of time!

(If need be, I can write out my profile but I'm more worried about the gaps in my work experience than I am about my GPA or GRE.)

Probably best to call individual schools and ask. That said, I think you have nothing to worry about and have great WE for an aspiring ID person.

Keep in mind work experience doesn't necessarily have to be actual IR to be IR-relevant. What do I mean? If you want to work in international development, doing essentially that kind of work but within US borders (which I assume your Americorps and Red Cross stuff was) is definitely pertinent to your application, and should be a bonus. It's development, just not international. As long as you can clearly and convincingly show in your SOP how a particular work experience will help build your IR-career, it's relevant.

Also, a 3 month gap is nothing. If it was 3 years, maybe you would have a reason to worry.

[jc99]

Thanks for the responses to both Myrnist and JMO although more to JMO, still didn't mean for a spat to ensue

and yes, I was there during the war, it has been a pretty tumultuous period in the country and it's been downhill from there.

I guess I should look for some work opportunities in that field to make myself more competitive.

[MYRNIST]

I hate to do this because it makes it look like I'm beating up on the OP (who would be a great candidate after getting some WE and taking some classes to show academic improvement), but this is just too stupid to let pass.

The kid has a 3.2 GPA from undergrad so that is not a sub 3.0...and second of all he went to a pretty reputable university in the Middle East, and assuming from his age, it happened at a time the country was heating up (were you their for the war in 2006 btw). So that alone is a decent chance, his Law school GPA may not even matter, since that is not undergrad work and he ended up graduating and passing the bar.

You are arguing that an IR adcom trying to assess OP's ability to thrive in an professional graduate program isn't going to factor in his previous experience in a professional graduate program?

That they will ignore or look kindly upon a downward trend in academic performance from undergrad to grad school?

Both of those make no sense and go against common admission practices. Talk to any ad rep and they will tell you all post high-school academic experience is fair game, and that showing a positive progression is extremely important.

Finally, admission statistic take averages and medians and you are telling me that not one single person from these schools had a GPA less than a 3.2 when applying, cause then I challenge your understanding of what a median actuall is, either way, be prepared to pay me that internet nickel, cause a guy I go to school with here in SIPA had a 3.0 GPA from NYU and got in.

How you will ask, well he did well on the GRE and worked 2 years in Egypt for a non-profit, and was raised in Nepal and speaks like 4 languages...I hope he never reads this, cause then it seems like I am fawning over him.

Reading comprehension fail.

Look at my post again. I said no one is going to get admitted at an elite school with "BOTH a sub 3.0 GPA and no IR work experience." Your anecdote about your friend is irrelevant - he clearly has great international work experience that compensates for his low grades. Similarly, there are plenty of kids fresh out of college with amazing grades but little professional experience getting elite admits. I stressed the both part because you absolutely can make up for weakness in one area with strength in another. But no one is getting into an elite school with poor grades and zero IR-relevant work experience, which is OP's situation.

you barely looked at his credentials, and just looked at GPA alone (i think you even looked at the wrong one), probably didn't even know the school he went to and wrote it off. That approach may be fine had he gone to Eastern State middle of nowhere university and got a 3.2 but believe it or not, it matter where you go.

So next time, in an attempt not to blow smoke up someone's behind, make sure to take a proper look at their profile before rendering a judgement.

This is just funny. I know AUB, and it is a good school for people looking to study in the Middle East. But you are talking about it like it's some insane global powerhouse, which it isn't. Even if it was, there is no school so prestigious that it overcomes bad grades, negative progression, and a total lack of applicable work experience. You could Borg meld all the Ivy Leagues into a shining paragon of academe, and it still wouldn't.

Nevermind, I forgot my opinion is invalid because I wasn't "their" in 2006.

Edited June 13, 2012 by MYRNIST

[jc99]

I hate to do this because it makes it look like I'm beating up on the OP (who would be a great candidate after getting some WE and taking some classes to show academic improvement), but this is just too stupid to let pass.

You are arguing that an IR adcom trying to assess OP's ability to thrive in an professional graduate program isn't going to factor in his previous experience in a professional graduate program?

That they will ignore or look kindly upon a downward trend in academic performance from undergrad to grad school?

Both of those make no sense and go against common admission practices. Talk to any ad rep and they will tell you all post high-school academic experience is fair game, and that showing a positive progression is extremely important.

Reading comprehension fail.

Look at my post again. I said no one is going to get admitted at an elite school with "BOTH a sub 3.0 GPA and no IR work experience." Your anecdote about your friend is irrelevant - he clearly has great international work experience that compensates for his low grades. Similarly, there are plenty of kids fresh out of college with amazing grades but little professional experience getting elite admits. I stressed the both part because you absolutely can make up for weakness in one area with strength in another. But no one is getting into an elite school with poor grades and zero IR-relevant work experience, which is OP's situation.

This is just funny. I know AUB, and it is a good school for people looking to study in the Middle East. But you are talking about it like it's some insane global powerhouse, which it isn't. Even if it was, there is no school so prestigious that it overcomes bad grades, negative progression, and a total lack of applicable work experience. You could Borg meld all the Ivy Leagues into a shining paragon of academe, and it still wouldn't.

Nevermind, I forgot my opinion is invalid because I wasn't "their" in 2006.

Ouch. I guess I should probably not bother applying after getting reamed here. I thought I may have an alright shot, maybe like 20% to get into one of the DC schools, I guess I was pretty wrong with that.

[MYRNIST]

Don't take me too seriously. My opinion means nothing - the only opinion that does matter is the adcoms, and they might think completely differently. If money isn't a problem, you have nothing to lose by applying.

That said, I think you would be an awesome candidate with a little bit of IR work experience and a class or two to show academic improvement. Any interesting organizations in your area you could volunteer for? Colleges with affordable night classes?

Edited June 13, 2012 by MYRNIST

[bless_yourheart]

@jc99,

I don't know if this helps at all (or what your financial situation is), but if you haven't taken quantitative classes yet, you might want to look here.

http://www.conted.ox.ac.uk/courses/results.php?Category=100#rightcontent

Please let me know if the link doesn't work!

[jc99]

@jc99,

I don't know if this helps at all (or what your financial situation is), but if you haven't taken quantitative classes yet, you might want to look here.

http://www.conted.ox...00#rightcontent

Please let me know if the link doesn't work!

@jc99,

I don't know if this helps at all (or what your financial situation is), but if you haven't taken quantitative classes yet, you might want to look here.

http://www.conted.ox...00#rightcontent

Please let me know if the link doesn't work!

@Blessyourheart

Am I reading this correctly, a class (Macroeconomics) is only 210 Pounds. That sounds too cheap to be true. I know that education in Britain is relatively cheap compared to the corporate universities here, but wow. Thanks a lot, very kind of you to show me this link.

[bless_yourheart]

I wouldn't really know about the 210 GBP bit. I have dual citizenship but I'm American and Filipino, so I can't help too much. Depending on how they define being an EU national, it'd still be about $460-$465 for an American citizen.

And yeah, it's legit. I'm taking the Macroeconomics class right now and I'll be taking the Microecon and the Globalization class in the fall.

[JMO]

Don't take me too seriously. My opinion means nothing - the only opinion that does matter is the adcoms, and they might think completely differently. If money isn't a problem, you have nothing to lose by applying.

That said, I think you would be an awesome candidate with a little bit of IR work experience and a class or two to show academic improvement. Any interesting organizations in your area you could volunteer for? Colleges with affordable night classes?

Wow, you completely butchered the guy and now are acting all nice. Don't forget that whatever the kid does have in work experience may still count as relevant if it has to do with International Business, especially with SAIS, they love that stuff. I have scoured these forums and have seen less competitive people state that they got into these schools, so I guess you'll never know until you apply, and if you don't get in, you can always improve your candidacy, then again it wouldn't hurt to improve it regardless of getting in. Either way, no point in beating this dead horse of a subject, your morale is probably on the floor by now. Good Luck buddy and sorry to see your country on the verge of some kind of internal disaster.

@Blessyour_heart, do these classes give you 3 credits (US style) or is it based on the British system and do you get graded in the end? Sounds like a good source for jc99, and even $500 is pretty cheap compared to any schools in the DC area unless you are a Montgomery county resident or a Virginia resident. Salamat

[bless_yourheart]

It's based on the British system. Not entirely sure how grading works at the end (I'm only midway through), but I can tell you that I've gotten the written "okay" from adcomms at Fletcher, SAIS, American, and Georgetown (haven't emailed Korbel yet). You're also given transcripts at the end of the class that explain how it's graded/points are accumulated.

And I am a resident of Virginia. It's about even with NVCC (and my mom was a prof there too ).... At NVCC, Fall Tuition per credit hour is about $145 and Macro is three credit hours. Also, NVCC has super weird ways of noting who is a Virginia resident: I'm registered to vote there, my permanent address is there, my car is registered there, I pay VA taxes, and because the Army sent my husband to Kentucky..... NVCC doesn't consider me a "VA resident." Kinda ridiculous to be honest.... /endrant

[MYRNIST]

Wow, you completely butchered the guy and now are acting all nice. Don't forget that whatever the kid does have in work experience may still count as relevant if it has to do with International Business, especially with SAIS, they love that stuff. I have scoured these forums and have seen less competitive people state that they got into these schools, so I guess you'll never know until you apply, and if you don't get in, you can always improve your candidacy, then again it wouldn't hurt to improve it regardless of getting in. Either way, no point in beating this dead horse of a subject, your morale is probably on the floor by now. Good Luck buddy and sorry to see your country on the verge of some kind of internal disaster.

My morale is on the floor? My country is on the verge of internal disaster? Glad to see you've given up on even pretending to have something productive to say.

[Helpplease123]

"Good Luck buddy and sorry to see your country on the verge of some kind of internal disaster."

"it happened at a time the country was heating up (were you their for the war in 2006 btw)"

"since it was at AUB and in the midst of the action"

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is it necessary to pepper your posts with such glib remarks about something serious?

[jc99]

This thread has taken a pretty nasty tone. Thanks for whatever Input I got here, I'll take what I can get. And thanks a lot to blessyourheart for the oxford distance learning site. And yes, Virginia does have odd residency laws, but I am a resident of DC, so I can go to UDC for classes, then again for a resident of DC its still around 1K for a class. Good luck.

[JMO]

My morale is on the floor? My country is on the verge of internal disaster? Glad to see you've given up on even pretending to have something productive to say.

You are a pretty spiteful person. I've tracked your comments and you have nothing nice to say to anyone, you'll probably have a hard time getting a job at one point in the future since you don't play well with others. Can't even give people encouragement on these boards without having someone come and rain on their parade. I was simply telling the OP that he does stand somewhat of a chance since adcomms drool over people that went to school in the middle east and have that kind of "real life" experience. Teaching english in some place is all nice and fun, but let's be serious, it has nothing to do with politics and is simply exposing you to another culture...most of these english teachers hang out with other Americans and rarely make friends with the locals. So stop being such a debbie downer and give people some helpful insight as opposed to a good bashing so you feel better about yourself. Reading your posts is almost sickening.

[JMO]

"Good Luck buddy and sorry to see your country on the verge of some kind of internal disaster."

"it happened at a time the country was heating up (were you their for the war in 2006 btw)"

"since it was at AUB and in the midst of the action"

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is it necessary to pepper your posts with such glib remarks about something serious?

Where did you come from

[rheadlee]

Program Applied To : M.P.A.

Schools Applying To: SAIS (American Foreign Policy); WWS (Field I); GWU Elliott (ITIP); American SIS (IER)

Schools Admitted To:

Schools Rejected From:

Still Waiting:

Attending:

Undergraduate institution: State U in the Big 10

Undergraduate GPA: 3.9

Undergraduate Major: Applied Economics

GRE Quantitative Score: 740 (estimated 158 on the new GRE, 79%)

GRE Verbal Score: 680 (estimated 165 on the new GRE, 96%)

GRE AW Score: 5.5 (96%)

Years Out of Undergrad (if applicable): 1, but see below, I was a non-traditional undergrad

Years of Work Experience: 6, depending on how you count it. Here I'm counting five years of the Navy and the one year of the Peace Corps that I will have under my belt when applications are turned in. By the time I matriculate I'll have two years of the Peace Corps. Also, two years as a Research and Teaching Assistant and one year of AmeriCorps may be of some interest to some schools.

Describe Relevant Work Experience: See above. 5 years in the Navy, 1 year (will be 2 by matriculation time) in the Peace Corps. Also, 1 year of AmeriCorps, which will probably be interesting to WWS (strong public service focus) but not the others. Experience as a Teaching and Research Assistant may be of interest to some, particularly if TA/RA opportunities are available.

Languages: Acholi (Luo), the regional language of Northern Uganda, Ugandan Sign Language (I work for an organization that is attached to a school for the deaf), and Spanish (severely atrophied). I will have to brush up quite a bit on my Spanish at any school except WWS in order to test out.

Quant: Econometrics, Calc, Math-based Stats. I'm not a math magician by any stretch of the imagination, but I did two years as a Research Assistant and I can work in the presence of numbers without panicking.

Strength of SOP: I feel pretty good about them at this point (mid-June) and I still have quite a bit of time to tweak, edit, etc. before applications start to come due. I'll be happy to swap with any/everybody. If my SOP doesn't make sense to a complete stranger, it probably won't make sense to an adcom.

Strength of LOR: Strong references from Naval officers who flew and worked with me, my undergrad adviser is a WWS grad, and I worked as a Research and Teaching Assistant with two different professors as an undergrad, so I feel good about my LORs. No "big" names, but they will come from profs and Navy pilots who know me very well.

I welcome any and all feedback, no matter how harsh!

[bless_yourheart]

rheadlee,

I'm relatively new to the forum, but I think you might want to look into HKS and Fletcher. Five years prior military service (pre-undergrad), one year in Americorps, two years in the Peace Corps, a decent GPA/quant background, and good LORs.... I would imagine that ALL of that combined would weigh very positively on your application. I could be wrong, but if you're up for applying to more schools, it's worth a thought.

[OregonGal]

I sincerely hope that Americorps will be of interest to more than just WWS I am an Americorps member finishing up the service year and I think that Americorps, or at least my program, is of use in developing professional skills as well as a public service resume. That being said, I also think that's less of an issue in your resume which is entirely professional skills and public service

Frankly, you sound like as long as you get good LORs from your COs and rock your SOPs you're a model candidate. 5 year Navy veteran AND Peace Corps AND Americorps?

[JMO]

Program Applied To : M.P.A.

Schools Applying To: SAIS (American Foreign Policy); WWS (Field I); GWU Elliott (ITIP); American SIS (IER)

Schools Admitted To:

Schools Rejected From:

Still Waiting:

Attending:

Undergraduate institution: State U in the Big 10

Undergraduate GPA: 3.9

Undergraduate Major: Applied Economics

GRE Quantitative Score: 740 (estimated 158 on the new GRE, 79%)

GRE Verbal Score: 680 (estimated 165 on the new GRE, 96%)

GRE AW Score: 5.5 (96%)

Years Out of Undergrad (if applicable): 1, but see below, I was a non-traditional undergrad

Years of Work Experience: 6, depending on how you count it. Here I'm counting five years of the Navy and the one year of the Peace Corps that I will have under my belt when applications are turned in. By the time I matriculate I'll have two years of the Peace Corps. Also, two years as a Research and Teaching Assistant and one year of AmeriCorps may be of some interest to some schools.

Describe Relevant Work Experience: See above. 5 years in the Navy, 1 year (will be 2 by matriculation time) in the Peace Corps. Also, 1 year of AmeriCorps, which will probably be interesting to WWS (strong public service focus) but not the others. Experience as a Teaching and Research Assistant may be of interest to some, particularly if TA/RA opportunities are available.

Languages: Acholi (Luo), the regional language of Northern Uganda, Ugandan Sign Language (I work for an organization that is attached to a school for the deaf), and Spanish (severely atrophied). I will have to brush up quite a bit on my Spanish at any school except WWS in order to test out.

Quant: Econometrics, Calc, Math-based Stats. I'm not a math magician by any stretch of the imagination, but I did two years as a Research Assistant and I can work in the presence of numbers without panicking.

Strength of SOP: I feel pretty good about them at this point (mid-June) and I still have quite a bit of time to tweak, edit, etc. before applications start to come due. I'll be happy to swap with any/everybody. If my SOP doesn't make sense to a complete stranger, it probably won't make sense to an adcom.

Strength of LOR: Strong references from Naval officers who flew and worked with me, my undergrad adviser is a WWS grad, and I worked as a Research and Teaching Assistant with two different professors as an undergrad, so I feel good about my LORs. No "big" names, but they will come from profs and Navy pilots who know me very well.

I welcome any and all feedback, no matter how harsh!

Go for Harvard, I recently met an individual with a very similar background to yours, also non-traditional student, finished undergrad at 27, he was stationed in Iraq and Afghanistan for a while. I am not sure what his GPA was, but he was surprised to have made it into Harvard and referenced that his grades were less than stellar. You should certainly give it a shot, that is, only if you actually want to go to Harvard, but the name alone is worth applying to, especially with the background you have. Good luck.

[JAubrey]

You are a pretty spiteful person. I've tracked your comments and you have nothing nice to say to anyone, you'll probably have a hard time getting a job at one point in the future since you don't play well with others. Can't even give people encouragement on these boards without having someone come and rain on their parade. I was simply telling the OP that he does stand somewhat of a chance since adcomms drool over people that went to school in the middle east and have that kind of "real life" experience. Teaching english in some place is all nice and fun, but let's be serious, it has nothing to do with politics and is simply exposing you to another culture...most of these english teachers hang out with other Americans and rarely make friends with the locals. So stop being such a debbie downer and give people some helpful insight as opposed to a good bashing so you feel better about yourself. Reading your posts is almost sickening.

You come off terribly sensitive and perhaps MYRNIST criticism hit a little close to home. MYRNIST while a bit abrupt, was on point. No IR experience, middle-tier university, and poor grades does not equal a top 5 IR school. This may be harsh, but it is spot on.

[JMO]

You come off terribly sensitive and perhaps MYRNIST criticism hit a little close to home. MYRNIST while a bit abrupt, was on point. No IR experience, middle-tier university, and poor grades does not equal a top 5 IR school. This may be harsh, but it is spot on.

No one is being sensitive here. I am trying to be practical because I have met people with international backgrounds like his who were not academic aces, but their experiences and lives abroad are well valued by these schools because they bring in a different point of view and s/he shot it down like she knew the admissions process. Why do you think these schools love to publish where their students come from and how "international" they are, it is effectively the essence of the program. Here at SIPA, it is really interesting to sit in a room with an Israeli and an Egyptian and hearing them talk about their respective foreign policies, and if a school finds a decent applicant from that country, they may just admit him/her (charge them the max, I might add) because not only does it boost their stats, but it is insightful for other US students to hear them speak, at least it is for me and many of my US colleagues.

And, It's not like he didn't seem to know that his chances were not great, or I bet he wouldn't be gauging someone else's reaction. I just don't like when people come in here and act like they are gods gift to this forum and they know all the ins and outs of the process. It is fine to tell an individual to improve on their IR experience and and perhaps take a couple of classes and that may improve their chances, but to just say it so abruptly is spiteful. I don't know who you are, but it sounds like you know the ins and outs of the admissions process and could predict with an almost certainty where someone will get accepted.

And btw why would his/her criticism hit close to home, I don't know what that even means, could you please explain...troll. Looking at your posts, you seem to be Myrnist's number 1 fan, pathetic.

Edited June 22, 2012 by JMO

[JAubrey]

No one is being sensitive here. I am trying to be practical because I have met people with international backgrounds like his who were not academic aces, but their experiences and lives abroad are well valued by these schools because they bring in a different point of view and s/he shot it down like she knew the admissions process. Why do you think these schools love to publish where their students come from and how "international" they are, it is effectively the essence of the program. Here at SIPA, it is really interesting to sit in a room with an Israeli and an Egyptian and hearing them talk about their respective foreign policies, and if a school finds a decent applicant from that country, they may just admit him/her (charge them the max, I might add) because not only does it boost their stats, but it is insightful for other US students to hear them speak, at least it is for me and many of my US colleagues.

And, It's not like he didn't seem to know that his chances were not great, or I bet he wouldn't be gauging someone else's reaction. I just don't like when people come in here and act like they are gods gift to this forum and they know all the ins and outs of the process. It is fine to tell an individual to improve on their IR experience and and perhaps take a couple of classes and that may improve their chances, but to just say it so abruptly is spiteful. I don't know who you are, but it sounds like you know the ins and outs of the admissions process and could predict with an almost certainty where someone will get accepted.

And btw why would his/her criticism hit close to home, I don't know what that even means, could you please explain...troll. Looking at your posts, you seem to be Myrnist's number 1 fan, pathetic.

Awww bless. Your sensitivities are showing through sport.

As to the OP, if you really want to go into IR, build an alternate transcript in IR / quant classes (it may go without saying but you need A's), study hard for the GRE and if you are capable knock it out of the park. This should open up second tier programs like SIS and possibly outlier "1.5" programs like GW.

[JMO]

Awww bless. Your sensitivities are showing through sport.

As to the OP, if you really want to go into IR, build an alternate transcript in IR / quant classes (it may go without saying but you need A's), study hard for the GRE and if you are capable knock it out of the park. This should open up second tier programs like SIS and possibly outlier "1.5" programs like GW.

Awww bless. Your sensitivities are showing through sport.

As to the OP, if you really want to go into IR, build an alternate transcript in IR / quant classes (it may go without saying but you need A's), study hard for the GRE and if you are capable knock it out of the park. This should open up second tier programs like SIS and possibly outlier "1.5" programs like GW.

The expert admissions officer strikes again. So how do you know all this detail about the university admissions process? I am just curious

[JMO]

Ignore my last comment, this thread has lost its purpose and I am sick of this back and forth.

jc99, good luck with whatever you decide to do