Thinking of leaving my program....

[chemychica]

Hey everyone!

I'm a first year in a chemistry PhD program. A few months ago, I was told that I couldn't work on the project that I wanted to work on due to funding issues. I was told by the prof/advisor to look elsewhere, oh well shit like that happens. I was pretty upset at the time and was also having some family problems so I went through a few weeks of feeling depressed and just feeling like I didn't belong here. I got through the low period, and I am feeling a lot better now. But I need to join a group by June or I will be kicked out of the program.

So, I have been looking into joining a different group, but nothing has seemed worth the 5 or 6 years of constant focused effort. I love science and I really wanted to be a scientist, but I am beginning to think that maybe the PhD was something that I WANTED to want more than something that is actually good for me. I am a very smart person, kind of an overachiever, and I really like science (and I thought I liked research?), so it seemed like a natural step. Now that I am here, I feel the atmosphere of academia just feels so wrong to me. Competitive, negative, isolating, very narrow-minded. I thought I could get used to it but now I'm not so sure. Maybe it's just this department, or maybe it would be tolerable if I had research I was excited about which I don't at the moment. My heart just doesn't feel in it, and I'm not even sure if I want to have a research career. So I don't think I should commit a significant portion of my twenties to something I may very well hate and regret.

Anyway, I really think that I should just leave this program and do something in the "real world" while I get my head together. But I don't know what I would do, and the economy is scary right now.

So, is it a terrible idea to bail? If I decided I do really want a PhD a year or two down the line, could I get back into a (less prestigious) program? What do people do when they leave PhD programs.....?

I feel so lost!

[euthuphron]

If, after much self-reflection, chats with those you trust and the counsel of strangers on online fora, you come to the conclusion that an academic life, or specifically, an academic career in science, is not for you, then your future self will be infinitely thankful that you didn't waste your time. But this is under the assumption that you really don't want to go down that path. This takes time to assess. After all, a PhD is a huge investment, in more ways than one, it's very taxing. If you can find idle work while sorting all this out, then, other than earning money, your body has something to do while your brain chews on it all.

I used to think that doing what you love and career go hand in hand; that, for everyone, there was some optimum where your job simultaneously fulfilled you and put food on the table. But, this isn't true for everyone (and maybe, for most) because, sometimes, attaching what you love to do onto a career and its inescapable "conditions" eventually destroys all the passion. If you don't like research there is nothing stopping you from studying chemistry throughout your life while having a job in a different field or sector. You won't have a piece of paper to wave in front of people for confirmation of your erudition, but it's there nonetheless. Your job doesn't define you completely. For many it's a tolerable way to make money and that's all.

[Spore]

I started a PhD program in the biomedical sciences at the University of Chicago a decade back.

I was enthralled with science and everything about it. Only I did not get along with the program director and could not find a suitable lab to join,

I was also depressed.

I took a leave of absence, an incredibly easy process to initiate. I transfered to a different PhD program that had accepted me during the first round of applications. This program was nowhere near as prestigious. This is the program I graduated from.

Honestly, and I truly do believe this, I was accepted into a fantastic postdoc lab that attracts people from the best universities in the world. Meaning, FOR ME, it did not matter whether I went to the best grad program or a great program. And my second graduate program was much more user friendly.

For you, I think your mental well-being is critical. I think your confidence is eroding...confidence of whether PhD is the best road for you. Only you can decide that. You need to think about what you would like to do in the long run, and consider if a PhD is necessary. Maybe stick it out in order to get a MA? You are likely only a year away from that and then you will have something to show for your efforts. Or, once again, take a LOA, return and try again. You can even apply to other programs in the meantime or consider other occupational opportunities.

[theologyofyourface]

I have a good friend who was in your position. She, too, was very smart, an overachiever who looooooves math, so the PhD seemed natural to her, too. She started a PhD program in math and after one year she was totally over it. She left and got a job working for the State Department doing Operations Research, which is still math, I'm told. She is much happier now. Turns out she was just doing the PhD because it "made sense" with her personality, but she didn't really like or enjoy the world of professional academia.

I say take a leave of absence, like Spore did. It'll give you time to figure out if this is really what you want to do.

[SeriousSillyPutty]

I remember a brochure in the undergrad physics office that said, "What can you do with a degree in physics? Anything you want to!" -- Which I later learned meant that you can (a) teach ( work at McDonald's, or © get another degree -- in anything you want to!

Is that how it seems in chemistry, too? I imagine chemistry is a bit more practical, and thus easier to get jobs with a B.S.

At one point I looked into working with a temp agency that was specific to sciency things. That may be something to look into during leave of absence. There are also lab tech jobs that (I imaginine) a BS in chemistry could get you. Ooh! You could work for a brewery!

A lot of times people come to the conclusion that the easiest thing to do with their degree is teach the subject to high-schoolers, and while some are successful at that I would discourage it, as all the nuts and bolts of teaching well can be hard to pick up quickly. (At least they were for me... I love science and explaining it to people, but I crashed and burned as a high school teacher with Teach for America.)

On the plus side, I'm always surprised by jobs out there I never knew existed. Did you know that science museums do outreach programs for schools and scout groups? I had no idea before, but now that's my job and I love it.

And I second what Euthuphron said. A job doesn't have to encompass all your passions to be satisfying, it just has to enable you to pursue many of your passions. My grandpa liked music and was good at math & science, so he became an engineer (nothing to do with music), but that gave him a regular schedule so that he could sing with the church choir, and provided an income that allowed the family to go on fun vacations.

I'm sure you'll end up with something satisfying!

Edited April 28, 2012 by SeriousSillyPutty

[Dal PhDer]

I went through wanting to quit a couple months ago. I was working on a project that didn't excite me and wasn't really my passion. I felt exactly how you did- that the academic world wasn't for me...I enjoy research and learning, but I didn't think it was the right fit.

Holy cow- I am glad I didn't quit. I am back to having the same enjoyment and enthusiasm that I once did. I mean, I think that I will go through periods where I question my choice and want to quit- but I think most of us do.

I dunno- to me, it sounds like a PhD is something you want to do. Don't let a little bump in the road deter you from a path you want. This isn't going to be an easy journey, that's why not everyone does it...but think long and hard about why you want to quit and leave, and if this is what you really want.

I am not in hardcore sciences, so I don't quite know your situation...but is this project you're suppose to be working on - is it 'work' that you get paid do to, or 'work' that would be unpaid and an opportunity for your dissertation? Are you not able to work on a project that is only yours and is your interest?

I work on a lot of projects just for 'experience' and 'funding' that are not directly related to my project.

[juilletmercredi]

I am going to semi-agree with Dal PhDer in that there is a fine line between really wanting to quit and never look back, and going through a slump period. Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference, and it's especially difficult in your first year because it may be your first slump period and you don't realize that everyone feels like that at some point in their graduate program. I went through two such major periods - once in my second year, and once in my third year when it was so bad I started applying to jobs and told my advisor I was quitting. I'm still here.

The way to find out, I think, is to reflect on the things that make you happy in graduate school. Honestly. If the thing that makes you happiest are departmental happy hour where you can socialize with others and the flexibility of time you have to get away from the graduate school, maybe you do need to quit. But if the things that make you happy are related to a science career - being paid to answer big questions, analysis, being in an intellectual community of scholars - then maybe you should stay. Every career has its downsides, as someone else has already wisely said. But you have to decide if there is enough to hold onto that makes it worthwhile. For me, even though I am sometimes miserable and graduate school causes me a great deal of anxiety, I think 1) I am just a naturally anxious person, and although not being here would probably be better for my mental health anxiety would accompany me anyway and 2) I realized that I am very passionate about my topic and my area. Whenever I think about the kind of work that I want to do, it's the kind of stuff I need a PhD to do. And whenever I think about comparable things I could do if I left, they never leave me quite as satisfied as thinking about myself in a career in my area. I get a warm happy glow when I think about teaching and mentoring students and working on research in my field, and I don't get that feeling when I think about comparable jobs. That glow is what keeps me pushing on even when I want to pull all of the hair out of my head.

So maybe that can be a useful exercise - imagine yourself as a scientist (realistically), then imagine yourself doing something else that pays better or has a more regular schedule or is less competitive, isolating, or negative. Do you feel satisfied thinking about the others?

Another thing you may want to do is a Google search on "thinking about leaving graduate school" and similar keywords. I did and came across a wealth of people who were also thinking about leaving. Reading their thoughts and comments and blogs and BB threads helped me feel like I wasn't alone. Ironically, knowing that I wasn't alone in being stressed out and somewhat depressed on occasion in graduate school was what helped me decide to stay. But it may also help you decide to leave, or at least make you feel like you're not alone.

[jayeyesee]

Whenever I think about the kind of work that I want to do, it's the kind of stuff I need a PhD to do. And whenever I think about comparable things I could do if I left, they never leave me quite as satisfied as thinking about myself in a career in my area. I get a warm happy glow when I think about teaching and mentoring students and working on research in my field, and I don't get that feeling when I think about comparable jobs. That glow is what keeps me pushing on even when I want to pull all of the hair out of my head.

This is seriously inspirational and one of the main reasons I applied to PhD programs. Couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you!

[Eigen]

Julliet gives great advice.

There's something else I wanted to touch on that comes across in your original post- and that's being able to choose a project that interests you. While it's important to have a project that you don't hate, it's also important to remember that what you do for your PhD dissertation work isn't what you'll have to do the rest of your career. Some people seem to put way too much stress and emphasis on the project, rather than the PI and group atmosphere. Find people you enjoy working with/for and a project that you don't hate, and then slowly bring things around to your area of interest.

Especially in your first few years (and sometimes your whole PhD), project selection and choice is very dependent on the funding situation. Most of my peers have next to no choice over what they work on, it's decided by the PI. A lot of that has to do with personality, but it's also a reality of funding in chemistry- once you have an area funded, you have to keep pounding on it for results. That's especially true of young PIs.

As you get more experience, and have successfully completed several projects, you'll likely get (or be able to push for more) lattitude in your work. A lot of grad students in my departments have many "side projects" that we don't spend a lot of money on, that are more in line with our direct interests than our PIs. But we can only keep working on them so long as we are putting out productive reseach on our main projects and paying the bills.

[Stately Plump]

I go through periodic crises of self-doubt and questioning. I have to make sure to let these things really ruminate before making rash decisions.

I'm not saying don't leave, but make sure it is definitely what you want. Think about it for a few months. Let it settle, and be serious and active about pursuing alternate options. It would be a shame to quit and leave only to find it really is what you want. On the other hand, if it really isn't right, it would be a shame to spend the next 5 years doing something you really don't want to do, when you could be doing something you really love (or at least something you like more than where you are now).

Ultimately, you have to do what's right for you (cliche, I know, sorry). For me, figuring out what's right often takes a few months. I have learned not to make decisions too quickly.

Best of luck with everything! I hope it works out!

[UnlikelyGrad]

There's something else I wanted to touch on that comes across in your original post- and that's being able to choose a project that interests you. While it's important to have a project that you don't hate, it's also important to remember that what you do for your PhD dissertation work isn't what you'll have to do the rest of your career. Some people seem to put way too much stress and emphasis on the project, rather than the PI and group atmosphere. Find people you enjoy working with/for and a project that you don't hate, and then slowly bring things around to your area of interest.

Yes. THIS. To tell the honest truth, I got on board with my project because I liked my advisor. The grant I originally started on (which was mildly interesting) has been mostly passed on to my labmate at this point, as my advisor decided that I was the one who was best suited for being lead researcher on the new cool grant that got me super-excited. Now I love my work.

As you get more experience, and have successfully completed several projects, you'll likely get (or be able to push for more) lattitude in your work. A lot of grad students in my departments have many "side projects" that we don't spend a lot of money on, that are more in line with our direct interests than our PIs. But we can only keep working on them so long as we are putting out productive reseach on our main projects and paying the bills.

I help a friend with her research on the side (basically, one week of field work per year, plus one afternoon a month or so), mainly because I have more geology training than she does and she needs to pick my brain. My advisor is totally cool with this because I don't let it hold me back from getting a reasonable amount accomplished on my "real" project. I think she already knows what I've discovered--that sometimes if you do some dabbling just outside of your primary sub-field you end up with really interesting angles on how to tackle your main project.

[long_time_lurker]

... I'm not even sure if I want to have a research career. So I don't think I should commit a significant portion of my twenties to something I may very well hate and regret.

Anyway, I really think that I should just leave this program and do something in the "real world" while I get my head together. But I don't know what I would do, and the economy is scary right now.

So, is it a terrible idea to bail? If I decided I do really want a PhD a year or two down the line, could I get back into a (less prestigious) program? What do people do when they leave PhD programs.....?

I feel so lost!

I won't be returning to my program in the fall so I figured I'd chime in.

You really have to clear your head and think about why you entered your program to start with and whether staying in the program will be more beneficial than leaving it.

In my case, I had the same feelings as you in regard to whether I really saw myself spending my thirties working on something I may not want to do. I was only interested in private sector work and the employers that came and gave talks mostly offered jobs in academia (no thanks) or private sector employment involving research intensive and theoretical work that I'm not all that interested in (as opposed to more applied work). The key though was that I was offered my old job back for the fall and another side job at the same employer where my salary will increase compared to what it was, and will be more than twice my stipend. It didn't help the case for staying that I would have to quit the job I worked part-time this year to complete my coursework.

Now in your case you say that not only do you have no job lined up but you have no idea what you would do. In that case it's pretty irresponsible to just pull up your stakes and walk. I would pick a project, register, etc. and spend the next couple of months sending resumes out to any job for which you're qualified. If you get something, then you can walk away from the University. If nothing pans out, you can at least go back in the fall and collect your stipend as well as gain more experience. If you can teach a lab, do so, and you can put that on your resume so you can adjunct or teach high school. You'll gain research and lab experience on your project that you can put on your resume. You also may grow to like your project and decide to stay at the University.

It seems you have nothing to lose by staying and a lot to lose (no job, no income, etc.) if you leave right now.

[Sigaba]

Anyway, I really think that I should just leave this program and do something in the "real world" while I get my head together. But I don't know what I would do, and the economy is scary right now.

Will the private sector offer a drastically different--much less more satisfying--experience?

IME working for two companies in two different industries, the demands of the 'bottom line' turned great work environments into increasingly toxic places that crushed the spirit of even the most steadfast true believers and resulted in 'restructuring.' Even before the sledding got tough, there was plenty of drudge project work that people did not want to do but did anyways, office politics, narrow thinking, unproductive competition, and isolation.

If you leave your program, you might strike gold and find something that makes you happier. However, given the state of the economy, I don't know if the odds are in your favor.

If you stay, hunker down, and learn to embrace the suck/adjust your mindset, you can continue to work towards your degree while (potentially) avoiding the ongoing ravages of the recession.

HTH.

[BrokenRecord]

A huge part of getting a PhD is not how intelligent you are but how malleable you are in response to extraordinary pressure. The most important thing for you to know is that these feelings are VERY common among grad students. It seems to me you are not in the right frame of mind to make such a decision which will impact the rest of your life. What you are going through to me seems like the reactionary phase of anyone experiencing a significant amount of uncertainty, insecurity and overall spunk in regards to a major life change.

For starters, I would suggest you speaking with someone (professionally) about what you are going through. There is a reason schools employ numerous counselors and psychologists---again, these feelings that you have are more common place than you realize, especially at the grad level. I would also try to incorporate at least 30 minutes a day (no less than 15) doing something you absolutely enjoy--whether it be a TV program, reading, sleeping, etc. If you can't give that at least to yourself you will be no good to anyone. Good luck and hope you realize this is just a slump in the long road of your life.

[Eigen]

Piggybacking off of BrokenRecord's point about talking to someone, I highly recommend finding a couple of peers that you can talk to. I know we have a stronger cohort than a lot of others, but it's amazingly helpful to be able to have some friends who know what you're going through to vent to. And not just the generalities, but the specifics and people involved.

We all know that if someone comes in and asks if you want to go grab coffee or lunch, that it's as likely a casual request as an "I need to vent, can we go somewhere outside the department?"

It's not always possible, but it's often worthwhile to look for. Even someone who you ordinarily aren't that close to might be someone that you could be "work friends" with.

[HiREdu]

Dear Chemy,

 

I certainly do understand your frustration. I was in a similar position a few years ago. I was going to leave my program when I talked to a mentor. She helped me turn everything around. Now, I am actually writing my thesis on Mentoring and Educational Outcomes. I felt so isolated, but having a mentor made all the difference in the world. I don't know what you ultimately decided, but I would love to hear how things turned out.

 

Best wishes to you,

HirEdu