"learn from each other" - prof naive about competition

[margarets]

So I'm in this course where the lecturer keeps suggesting that we work together on assignments and learn from each other. (These are not group assignments though.) In fact I emailed him to ask a question about an assignment and he suggested I show my work to other students and get their opinion.

Besides the whole blind-leading-the-blind potential, this suggestion seems really out of touch with the competition amongst students that I've observed. Some will flat-out tell you that they won't help, others are just really weird about being spoken to at all (extreme introverts, I guess), and since we've only had like 5 classes, most of us don't know each other anyway, although a few cliques have already formed. One student who I have already helped quite a bit totally blew me off when I asked him for a small bit of help.

The prof seems to think it's some merry we're-all-in-the-same-boat scenario when it's a bit more like every-man-for-himself. So, at times, I'm going to need HIS help, but I how can I get it without being the whiner who says "no one will help me?"

(As a side note, I think this is a symptom of the whole issue of grads having so much difficulty finding work. They don't want to lose any possible competitive edge they might have.)

[ktel]

Interesting. I relied heavily on support from my peers throughout my undergrad, and then had to rebuild a similar network when I went to grad school. I focused on making friendships first, rather than just asking for help right off the bat, so it didn't look like I was only interested in talking to them to get help with my assignments. At first I felt similar to you, that people were competitive and wanted to keep their stuff to themselves. That was so not the case at all, which I soon discovered. I managed to break in by organizing a midterm study session where we could all do past exams and compare answers. This benefited everyone, as there were no solutions provided. This initial ice breaker activity paved the way to me being able to ask for actual assignment help.

[margarets]

This isn't a whole program; this is one 12-week 12-class course, and we've only had five classes so far. So I don't know how many friendships could really be formed in that time, or will be by the time the course is over. I've been friendly with everyone and helped all who asked when I could, without requiring them to pretend to be interested in me as a person first (real friendship takes time). What advice do you have for a short-term situation like mine, with a prof who thinks we're all helping each other when we aren't?

[crazygirl2012]

Maybe you can be vague about it and say that you did talk to other students (which you did) and you're still lost.

[margarets]

Thanks. I'll see if an opportunity to say something like that comes up.

We haven't gotten any assignments back yet, so I don't know if I'm bombing the course or doing well or what. Or, for that matter, who in the class is worth asking for help. I guess we'll see who the "stars" are and perhaps the dynamic of the class will change then.

[ktel]

I'm not suggesting you need to become best friends with them. Just present yourself differently to them. Even if they are not normally this competitive, if someone came up to me solely for the purpose of asking for help on an assignment, I would probably be hesitant to help them. You need to go about it differently. Perhaps suggest to people that you all get together to work on an upcoming assignment so you can ask each other questions.

[margarets]

I'm not suggesting you need to become best friends with them. Just present yourself differently to them. Even if they are not normally this competitive, if someone came up to me solely for the purpose of asking for help on an assignment, I would probably be hesitant to help them. You need to go about it differently. Perhaps suggest to people that you all get together to work on an upcoming assignment so you can ask each other questions.

You are making all kinds of assumptions about how I have approached my classmates - in particular, that I'm doing it wrong, when I haven't actually said anything about my approach. What I actually asked for was advice on how to deal with the prof who thinks going to other students is an option when it's actually a crap-shoot. Do you have advice for that?

Also, why would you think that people who respond negatively to a direct request would somehow be interested in taking time out of their schedule to meet in a group and give help that way? That's like an hour or two out of their life, when they've already shown a disinclination to give two minutes.

I'm interested in your opinion on this: Let's say I turn out to be one of the stars of the course, and people come to me for help. Should I rebuff those who previously rebuffed me, who are only coming to me now because they know that I have the info? How would you handle that situation?

[ktel]

While you haven't specifically said anything about your approach, you have said many subtle things that suggest how you may have approached them. For example:

" I've been friendly with everyone and helped all who asked when I could, without requiring them to pretend to be interested in me as a person first (real friendship takes time) "

This is what you have done, and I understand why you might expect the same from others, but it's a natural thing for people to hold back when they think they are being approached for the sole purpose of getting something out of them. Even if you only want to get something out of them, more finesse is needed.

Another sentence that made me infer things about your approach:

" We haven't gotten any assignments back yet, so I don't know if I'm bombing the course or doing well or what. Or, for that matter, who in the class is worth asking for help. I guess we'll see who the "stars" are and perhaps the dynamic of the class will change then. "

This to me indicated the most that you see your classmates only of worth to you if they help you out. That may or may not be the case, but don't make it look that way to them. People will be much more helpful if they enjoy helping you and not only if they can get help in return.

I think people who respond negatively to a direct request may do so for fear of being used. You are speaking with them only if you want something from them. By offering to meet in a group, prior to having an actual question you need to ask this aspect is missing. If they too have questions they need to ask, they may feel more comfortable asking in this setting where its more collaborative and less likely to be misconstrued as purely selfish. It's not an issue of the amount of time they want to dedicate, but about how they perceive your intentions.

I personally have never hesitated to help a classmate even if I don't think they will be able to similarly help me in return. If I had a classmate who needed my help on a regular basis without helping me, perhaps I would limit my advice, but I would not completely rebuff someone initially even if they rebuffed me first.

I didn't specifically provide advice about approaching the prof, because I think it's quite obvious. Lie to him and say you have asked others for help and nobody knew the answer. Simple.

[margarets]

"You are speaking with them only if you want something from them."

That's purely your assumption, because nothing in my posts indicates that either way. You really have no idea what my interactions have been with these students re: sharing help or any other topic.

Re: my comment about who the "stars" are, you assumed I meant specifically who *I* should ask for help, but actually I was speaking in general terms. Once that emerges, the help-seekers will naturally gravitate towards the more accomplished students. It might turn out that I'm one of the stars. If so, I guess I'll have the option to judge the intentions of my classmates when they ask me for help. (In fact I'll have an opportunity at the next class. There is a student who ALWAYS asks me for help. But she might be a user, so I better watch out. If it's OK for others to rebuff me, then it's OK for me to rebuff them, right?)

I think it's interesting that you mention it's all about how they "perceive my intentions" (i.e. act like I'm not looking for help when really I am) and then you recommend lying to the prof. So basically your advice is: prevarication. Which I suppose is how you managed to "rely heavily" on your classmates. Hm.

[Sigaba]

@margarets--

If you present yourself IRL as you do in this thread, I could see how you'd have difficulties establishing rapport with your classmates. (And just so you understand, ktel is talking about establishing rapport, not prevarication.)

Instead of asking yourself if your classmates are worth the effort, you might benefit from treating yourself to a beverage at your favorite coffee house, turning that question around, and having a candid conversation with yourself.

[ktel]

I think I clearly pointed out where in your posts I gained my assumptions from. Obviously I don't know you, so all I have to go on is what you posted here.

I'll give you another piece of advice then. If you don't feel comfortable lying to the professor, your other option is to tell the truth. Tell him you have reached out to other students and no help has been received. Personally I see this as the less favorable option as it puts your character and your interactions with others in question. But it's only a 12 week program, not like you will be making long lasting relationships.

Your assumptions about my interactions with my peers is interesting. The classmates I relied heavily on, also relied heavily on me (such is the case in a program the favors group work and interaction as mine did), and also became very close friends. Our friendship is what drove me to help them whenever they needed it, hence my advice to you about your approach.

Edited June 6, 2012 by ktel

[margarets]

So it's OK to use people, just as long as they don't catch on?

And it's OK for others to protect themselves from being used by me, but it's wrong for me to protect myself from being used by them?

[ktel]

You seem to not get what I'm saying at all. What I said was you should try to establish a relationship with these people. Barring that, if your true motivation is to only get to know them so you can get their help with school work, try your best to not make it look that way.

[margarets]

"I focused on making friendships first, rather than just asking for help right off the bat, so it didn't look like I was only interested in talking to them to get help with my assignments."

So basically, cultivate friendships with the ultimate aim of getting something for yourself. Ah, true friendship.

That, plus lying to lecturers. Got it.

[Sigaba]

@margarets--

You are badly misreading ktel's posts. You, not ktel, are the one approaching the issue of collaboration as exploitative. You, not ktel, are the one talking about being dishonest.

I think you should take a big step back from this thread and spend some time vetting your assumptions. (Starting with your understanding of irony.)

[psychgurl]

You really have no idea what my interactions have been with these students re: sharing help or any other topic.

Instead of vaguely defending yourself maybe you could enlighten us and clear this up. How did you ask for help? The way I'd handle it if I wasn't part of a clique would be to propose a study session at a coffee shop to go over that concept, emailed to the whole class perhaps. Maybe frame it as a great way to clear up other people's questions as well (this is what ktel was alluding to I think). And people gravitating toward the "stars" in the class: first of all, how would you even know who the stars are? I had no flippin' clue about who the stars were past high school. It's about gravitating toward agreeable people IMO. Establishing a relationship doesn't mean finding your best friend in this class....or "true" friendship, whatever that means. It's about just forming alliances with people who are agreeable and helpful. I mean, really, it's great to talk to a study buddy for years into the future because you realize you're soulmates. But most of my study buddy's were cool people who made the class more endurable...and people who I don't necessarily keep in touch with now. Best of luck...I think just chilling out and slapping a smile on your face will do you loads of good in this situation.

Edited June 6, 2012 by psychgurl

[ktel]

I think Sigaba sums it up nicely. I assumed you were not interested in actually having friendships with your classmates, so I presented my advice as such. Take it or leave it.

[Eigen]

I'm coming in late here, but I would say that the prof's approach is perfectly natural for graduate work. You're supposed to learn how to deal with and learn from your peers, as well as examine each others work.

I wouldn't have thought Environmental Science was such a competitive field, at least not based off of the department(s) here. And I would say that I have found (by and large) graduate school and my peers to be very much more collaborative than competitive.

I think one of your issues (as inferred from your posts, and already pointed out) might be that you're looking for someone else in the class that "knows" to help you. Instead, why don't you find someone else who is also struggling, and the two of you get together to work it out?

[ANDS!]

Anyone else have to GOOGLE prevarication?

[ktel]

Anyone else have to GOOGLE prevarication?

Me! Yay engineering!

[CageFree]

Instead, why don't you find someone else who is also struggling, and the two of you get together to work it out?

This. The best way to master a subject is to teach it to someone else.

Edited June 7, 2012 by CageFree

[Dal PhDer]

Graduate school is all about preparing yourself for the real world, and one big skills in the real world is developing working relationships with your peers, being able to effectively work within groups, and learning how to properly hand out and take criticism on your work. Group tasks were always a huge part of my grad school experience. My very first grad school task for the second class was to facilitate/teach the class with 2 other students. What you are experiencing is grad school, so the attitude that your prof has will probably be one that you will see a lot of...simply because they want you to develop crucial real world skills.

I would first try to establish some kind of study group with the students in the class. Before or after class, talk to a group of them and say "hey, I really would like to get together for an hour before/after class/on the weekend/whatever to talk about the assignments and maybe exchange work with each other" ...all you can do is suggest opportunities for students to get together and help each other out..in my experience, grad students are all very willing to do this, because just as you want help and feedback, so do they. [it's also key to remember that while grad school might seem like a competition, it's really not...you have to focus on your work, your path, and your expectations]. If you really try to generate a cooperative environment/situation in your class, and get no response...THEN go to your professor.

If you do go to the professor again, be very careful how you approach it...do not place blame on the other students. Simply say, 'Listen I would like some extra guidance on this project, I feel like I am not exactly sure which direction I need to go in, and would really benefit from your advice'...if they say, 'go to the other students' say something like "I have, and I still don't feel completely confident that I am on the right track" ...you want to make sure you don't 'go crying' to the prof, you want to be professional, motivated, and stress that you want to do a good job and need clarity.

[jeffster]

I think what Dal PhDer said is good advice - if you go to the professor again, be very careful. Since they rebuffed you the first time, he or she clearly expects you to interact with your fellow students for the answer. I'm not sure coming in and saying you tried and failed is going to come across much better than not trying at all. If you're truly at wits end with your classmates, you could try to frame it all carefully with the prof as a last resort.

Otherwise, as has been brought up elsewhere in the thread, you would be best off trying again with your fellow students. Sorry you're in a program with such bad inter-student chemistry. It doesn't have to be insurmountable though, so good luck!

[margarets]

ktel, I think you've dug yourself into a hole here. In your first response, you tried to redefine the issue so that you could congratulate yourself for your past actions, but you inadvertently revealed your unattractive ethical flexibility.

I think it's fair to assume that since you advocate lying to professors, and lying about your classmates, you are also OK with lying to your classmates (and, no doubt, lying on internet forums, which calls into question everything you've posted here). I'll bet you don't like it when it happens to you though.

And I doubt you would want your current classmates knowing about what you've posted here. That would put an end to your relying on them right quick.

[ktel]

I think the only one revealing unattractive character traits on this forum is you, judging by both this thread and the previous ones you posted.