Overwhelming

[Pretty_Penny]

I've always been able to handle stress pretty well, but the start of grad school has really thrown me through a loop. I had been working on an NSF application all summer (while still at home and working 40 hours a week in a local bakery), and my advisor labeled the first draft as "a really nice start" and then gave the second one back (ON THE FIRST DAY OF CLASSES MIND YOU) and said I might as well start over. It was really overwhelming and it took everything I had not to just burst into tears right there. She could tell I was upset but just kept telling me it's hard, but it will get better.

 

For some more background, 12 credits is the absolute maximum you can take at my institution and they don't recommend that. Guess how many she has me enrolled in? 14. I'm also TAing 20 hours a week. I know they say coursework shouldn't matter as much in grad school, but with that and the NSF grant and lab work and trying to be social enough so that my cohort doesn't hate me I am barely keeping my head above water. Worse still is that two of my classes are taught by my advisor and I am so ridiculously intimidated by her now. She talked to me one day after class and I felt like I was going to cry then, as well, and basically I had to tell her I feel dumb and that I think I'm disappointing her.

 

I thought I pulled it together last week (the second week of classes), but I got an email from her tonight expressing her disappointment that I haven't been communicating more with her and that I should have sent her a draft of my NSF proposal already. WE HAVE A DRAFT DUE TUESDAY SO I GUESS I DIDN'T SEE A POINT IN SENDING IT IN WHEN IT WASN'T COMPLETE YET? To appease her I said we should set up weekly meetings (why she never suggested this I'm not sure-most of the other advisors did with their students) and emailed the other grad student in the lab to set up a time to talk with her about everything.

 

My advisor told me she wants this to be fun for me, but she is the reason it is currently not fun for me. I am scared to death of her and feel like I can't do anything right. I'm also terrified I won't get good enough grades to remain in good standing with the grad school. I doubt I'll ever be able to come up with any research ideas on my own, and I know for a fact I will never have as good of a relationship with my advisor as the fifth-year grad student in our lab does. I honestly feel like I should just give up now.

[Lisa44201]

Breathe.

 

Again.

 

Can you drop one of your classes? The only way I could imagine doing a 14cr semester is if I had nothing else going on - the TA hours on top of that amount of credits, plus an NSF proposal, is a recipe for disaster.

 

Honestly, don't worry about your cohort hating you. They won't. Folks recognize when people are working hard; they'll have stuff to do, too.

 

The weekly meeting is a good idea. Communication with one's adviser in grad school is critical; from the sounds of things, your adviser would like you to communicate more. I try to make a habit of e-mailing my adviser once a week in addition to our regular face-to-face meetings.

 

The intimidation goes away with familiarity.

[rising_star]

Honestly, you shouldn't be comparing your relationship with your advisor to anyone else's. I know my advisor has had and still has students he works better with or maybe likes more than me but, it's out of my control. All I (or you or anyone else) can do is produce the best work we can, incorporate the feedback we get, and improve.

 

As for the classes, talk to your Director of Grad Studies or a more senior grad student to see if you can get some sense of why you're being asked to take 14 credit hours. It might be that you need these courses and they won't be taught before your exams. If not though, you might want to look into dropping one. Barring that, get better at skimming, try to combine projects such that an assignment for one class can be used for another (usually people don't frown on this at the grad level), and figure out where else you can cut back. You have to maintain your sanity, so keep the social time, whether it's with your cohort or with others.

[Pretty_Penny]

Thanks for the feedback. I am going to talk to the professors I TA for to see if I can skip out on sitting in on their classes everyday (I honestly have no real reason to be there). If they are opposed I am going to have to drop one of the courses (the only one I am really actually enjoying), even though the professor who generally teaches it is going to be on sabbatical next year and that's why my advisor wanted me to take it this year (so I don't have to wait till my third year). Unfortunately my other classes are core classes except for an elective taught by my advisor, and she won't let me drop that.

 

I feel like everyone is ganging up on me. Today the senior grad student in the lab chastised me because I told her I had to be late to our lab meeting BECAUSE THEY SCHEDULED IT THE SAME TIME AS MY OFFICE HOURS. My office hours were set well in advance of them moving the lab meeting to Mondays, and I told the undergrad doing the scheduling I would have to be late if that's what they decided upon, but it worked for everyone else so I guess they just decided to go with that and of course I get in trouble for it. Literally nothing is going right.

[PsychGirl1]

Remember that other grad students are just as busy and probably don't have the whole story- I'd just politely let her know that you are going to be late because you have office hours each week, and that you told people before the change happened. She's not the boss of you, don't let her "chastise" you for something that isn't wrong of you.

 

I can't tell if you're being oversensitive to people's cues (ex. maybe she just said, "in general, don't be late to lab meeting" without knowing the whole story), or if people in your lab are really this intense and clueless. My guess is that it's somewhere in between :-).

 

Honestly, keep in mind that your adviser is there to ADVISE. They are not the boss of you or your life. They don't know all the details of what you're doing or what you're going through. If you are reasonable and logical, and keep communication lines open- this is your life, and your graduate school career, and you should treat it as such. If you calmly discuss with her that you're a bit overwhelmed, you need time to focus on your grant, and that this elective class will fit into your 3rd year school- you checked- and that there is no specific need for you to take it 1st year over 3rd... then there should be no reason for her to insist it unless she has a good reason. Again, tell her you want to focus on your NSF grant this term, and that it should be prioritized over taking extra classes- no reasonable person would argue with that if they didn't have a good reason.

 

I guess my point is- she probably has reasons she is telling you to do certain things, and they just aren't being communicated clearly. I'd also guess that you aren't communicating your concerns clearly as well. Again- approach things logically, reasonable, and have a calm discussion with your x-year plan laid out. Communication, communication, communication.

[Pretty_Penny]

Here's an update:

 

-The professors I TA for were not ok with me not coming to their classes so I went down to the office to drop one of the classes I'm in so I can have a more manageable credit load. The lady who works in the office said I should make the head of the department aware that my advisor was not happy with my lack of time to work in the lab (even though she's the one who pushed me to take 14 credits). This lady reinforced that my advisor has a history of being difficult and unreasonable and that it's not me. She also said she would go with me to talk to the DGS if it came to that.

 

-I thought things would be better since I dropped the class and had more time. I was wrong. I had to make a schedule of when to have my drafts submitted to my advisor and she made me redo it so many times that it only left me with a day to actually prepare a draft to send to her. In the schedule I had just marked bare logistics (like "send draft", "receive feedback", etc.) She sent me a scathing email back with "well what are you going to be doing on the weekends?" Like (1) obviously I'm going to continue working on the drafts and (2) is it really her business? If I'm devoting my entire week to these drafts, shouldn't I have a little time to catch up on other coursework over the weekend? I haven't been able to do laundry or clean my apartment in 3 weeks and I haven't gone for a run in three days (which is something I generally do religiously). I responded with a polite email about how I will be working over the weekends and how I thought I had implied that in the schedule and everything seemed fine.

 

-Then the next blowup. I sent her a draft on Friday per our schedule, with the plan to meet Monday and receive feedback. It was a very rough first draft so obviously I knew it wouldn't be very good, but she sent me comments back already Friday night to "keep me working over the weekend." I HAVE GIVEN HER NO REASON TO THINK I DON'T DO WORK OVER THE WEEKEND. So I emailed her back saying I would make changes and bring them to our meeting Monday, to which she responded last night saying "this needs to take priority" and that I needed to send her something before Monday. So now I have to drop everything and make changes and completely neglect my other coursework (some of which is for a class she teaches). I have a group project this afternoon which involves traveling all over the city to learn about different locations (dumb, but something we have to do), which I indicated to her in my email, but she doesn't seem to care.

 

Am I being unreasonable here? I mean, is this normal behavior for an advisor? No one else seems to be having these sorts of problems. I am absolutely miserable working with her and seriously am considering quitting.

[callista]

Make an appointment with the DGS asap.  Or email them.  This seems like way too much to handle!!

[rising_star]

Make an appointment with the DGS and start scouting options for a new advisor.

[callista]

Been wondering how things are going with this... hope they are better!

[Pretty_Penny]

Hi callista,

 

Thanks for the concern! Things aren't really any better. My advisor constantly questions whether I'm excited about/happy with my project. When I tell her it's not the project but the situation she doesn't seem to get it. I tried to explain to her that constant criticism without positive reinforcement doesn't work for me (particularly because I was in an abusive relationship in the past) and that it is really demotivating and she tells me that's just the way it is. I understand you get a lot of criticism in grad school, but all of my friend's advisors have been very supportive and understanding. She also told me I need therapy, which I think is not her place to say.

 

She also expects an unreasonable amount of work from me. In a recent meeting she told me I shouldn't be sleeping, all because she was disappointed in one draft I turned in (which I had to do between Monday and Tuesday morning with several classes in between and administering two exams for a class I TA for). I work more than any other first-year in the program and it's never good enough. She is also contradictory - telling me my grant should be my sole focus and then, when I don't have time to run analyses in the lab because I have 45 5-7 page papers to grade, regular coursework, and several drafts of my grant due, she lashes out at me about that. I talked with the DGS and, as she pointed out, if my advisor wanted me to be working so much in the lab she should be funding me off of her grant.

 

This whole thing is particularly concerning because I'm internalizing everything she's saying and starting to feel like maybe it is me, maybe I'm just not working hard enough, maybe I'm not passionate enough, etc. I dread my meetings with her and am constantly scared to check my email. I know I can't make it through 5 years like this. The DGS, of course, wants me to try and work things out with her. The next step is to talk to my area coordinator. I think I might just end up quitting!

[callista]

 

This whole thing is particularly concerning because I'm internalizing everything she's saying and starting to feel like maybe it is me, maybe I'm just not working hard enough, maybe I'm not passionate enough, etc. I dread my meetings with her and am constantly scared to check my email. I know I can't make it through 5 years like this. The DGS, of course, wants me to try and work things out with her. The next step is to talk to my area coordinator. I think I might just end up quitting!

 

 

This sounds like a very stressful situation.  Does the DGS understand that you have all of this stuff going on and that you're overloaded- it's not just a personality thing?

[St Andrews Lynx]

It might not be a bad idea to talk to a university counsellor/therapist, though. If it's getting to the stage where you're internalising a lot of poisonous sentiments, are scared to check emails and dread meetings, then something drastic needs to change. That doesn't mean your advisor is "right" and you're "wrong", it just means looking after your mental health and trying to avert anything worse.

 

I'd also take steps to look for a new advisor. Be polite but firm to the DGS about how your are a bad fit with your current PI. If necessary start collecting documentation - email conversations, notes of incidents/remarks. 

[fuzzylogician]

It might not be a bad idea to talk to a university counsellor/therapist, though. If it's getting to the stage where you're internalising a lot of poisonous sentiments, are scared to check emails and dread meetings, then something drastic needs to change. That doesn't mean your advisor is "right" and you're "wrong", it just means looking after your mental health and trying to avert anything worse.

 

I'd also take steps to look for a new advisor. Be polite but firm to the DGS about how your are a bad fit with your current PI. If necessary start collecting documentation - email conversations, notes of incidents/remarks. 

 

I second both of the suggestions here but I would like to point out that there doesn't need to be anything outrageously wrong with your advisor and even if you have nothing to document, it's still completely legitimate to feel that you two don't get along. That happens sometimes and it doesn't need to be anybody's fault. I think you should make a decision for yourself whether you can fix something in your relationship with your advisor (and it's worth investing the time in it) or you want to switch. Then tell the DGS and insist on finding other solutions if they keep telling you to try and make it work with your advisor. I would maybe also start thinking about who might replace your advisor, because the DGS may ask you for your opinion. Maybe even start talking to potential advisors to get a feel for the probability that they will take you on as a student.

[Pretty_Penny]

Hi everyone,

 

Thanks for the feedback! It really is helpful.

 

I already had my meeting with the DGS last Friday and today I talked to the area coordinator. She couldn't believe anything was wrong because I put on such a brave face generally haha. She thinks my concerns are valid and, after meeting with the DGS this afternoon, she decided to email my advisor tonight and set up a meeting with her tomorrow. This worries me, as I have class with my advisor tomorrow morning. In general, this whole process worries me because I am non-confrontational and would like to avoid uncomfortable situations at all costs... However, I feel (and I made it clear) that if something doesn't change I have to switch advisors or leave because I don't feel we are a good match and this is not at all a productive environment for me.

 

The area coordinator said something interesting - she thinks my advisor probably doesn't even recognize there is a problem because this is just the way she is. This makes me even more concerned that she will be blindsided and angry about this even though I've tried to express what I think about our relationship in meetings and she has just been very dismissive about my needs as an advisee. In general, I say what I think, she dismisses it, and I have to end up just nodding my head and agreeing.

[fuzzylogician]

Good luck to you, and I hope you come back to report how your meeting went. Overall it sounds like your current relationship with your advisor is not working for you, so I'm glad you're taking the necessary steps to fix it. Your advisor might be surprised, but if she is a good advisor she will try to learn and improve from this. If she is indeed just "being the way she is," which generally sounds like a very likely option, then it depends on her personality whether or noth she can seek to make changes in how she behaves around you and adapt her mentoring style to your needs. If she's just upset at you but nothing changes, it would be one more sign that you should be seeking another advisor. 

[zephyr201]

Pretty penny,

 

Although I'm also a first year, I can say that the load of 14 credits, 20 hours of TAing, and the NSF grant proposal is pretty unreasonable -- especially for a first year student. I've only seen people doing either of those things, not all of them. 

 

A comment about the last post you wrote:

 

"In general, I say what I think, she dismisses it, and I have to end up just nodding my head and agreeing."

 

If this continues to happen (in the case that you don't switch advisors), I would suggest following up your original concerns with a question. For example,  maybe asking something like 1) what she feels you should do or 2) what she thinks about it. This way she'll be prodded into answering your dilemma rather than dismissing your concerns and moving on. I've found that if you simply state concerns, some advisors might just think you're getting something off of your back, then move on.

 

Anyway, like fuzzylogician and others, I am anxious to hear how your meeting went. 

And don't worry, whatever happens, you will be fine. I'm sure you are more than a fantastic asset to your lab.

[juilletmercredi]

I'm glad that you met with your DGS; I'm hoping the meeting goes well.  Let us know.

 

A few things, though: your adviser is not your dictator or controller; she is there to advise you.  I remember what it was like my first year; you feel so intimidated and your adviser feels so powerful, but you are their junior colleague, not an employee or their child.  So you're allowed to make your own choices - for example, dropping a class if your course load is too heavy or choosing not to work on the weekends.  I take Saturday and half of Sunday off, and if someone gave me comments on Friday and said they wanted them on Monday I simply say "I can't do that.  I can get them to you by Wednesday."  What is she gonna do, come home with you and force you to work?

 

It sounds like this is your adviser's personality: very critical.  Maybe she's a workaholic herself and is one of those people who thinks that you have to work 100-hour weeks to be successful in academia (it's not true).

 

For example, if she send you an email back that says "What are you going to do on the weekends?" deflect.  Just say, "I only made a bare bones schedule with a few milestones marked on the calendar, but if you would like a more detailed calendar I can do that for you."  Write things in on the weekends, but make sure you give yourself enough time so that if you don't want to work all day Sat and Sun then you don't have to.

 

If she sends you a draft on Friday and you can't get it back on Monday - and there's no reason to, because the NSF deadline is still a month or so away - and she says something like you have to send her something before Monday, say something like "That won't be possible for me.  This needs some work and I want to be sure I can devote the time to it that is necessary to change it.  I can get it back to you on Monday at our meeting."  In other words, give her a little push back.

 

YOU have to be the master of your own schedule - and that includes making time for coursework and other projects but also making time for yourself.  One of the mistakes I made in my first two years was thinking I could work around the clock.  Then you just burn out and you hate yourself and everything by third year.  If you run religiously - make time to run.  Put it as an event on your schedule.  Same thing with laundry or cleaning or even just relaxing and watching your favorite TV series.  Monday nights are TV nights for me and my husband: I cook dinner, I step away from the computer, we settle down and eat dinner and watch TV for 2-3 hours.

 

And if someone asks you to do something when you know you need to run or clean or do laundry or whatever, calculate that time in your day when you are making predictions for when you can get things back - "I can't get this back to you this evening, but I can get it to you by tomorrow evening."  (Try to avoid apologizing - don't append "sorry" to the beginning or end of this statement.)  You don't have to tell anyone what you have scheduled or why you can't do it - that's not their business.  In my experience most sane people are like "Okay" and move on, unless your timeline is unreasonably long or you're working on deadline (like a paper revision or a grant that's due next week).

[Pretty_Penny]

Hi everyone!

 

Again, thanks for the feedback! It really helps me to keep things in perspective. I met with my advisor this morning. She brought up speaking with the area coordinator right away... Apparently their "solution" to the situation is to have me stop working on the NSF. I can say this is definitely not what I was expecting. I thought I had made it clear that, after a lot of introspection, what I am experiencing is due to an incompatibility with my advisor and is not related to the current project. I believe we would be having this problem regardless of the project, the timeframe, etc. I voiced that belief again in my meeting, but it doesn't look like I will be switching labs, and if she changes her behavior at all is yet to be seen. She insists this would not be a failing on my part and that I'm perfectly capable of succeeding etc., but that it is "a barrier to our relationship" or some lame excuse like that.

 

As for dropping the project, I said I'd consider it, but I don't plan on agreeing. I've worked my butt off on this and it will be just as competitive as anyone else's in the program. If I'm stuck working with her I'm going to finish this *%&# proposal. But I'm not sure what to do at this point. I thought the area coordinator was on my side, but I guess not.

[upsidedown]

That sounds exhausting.

 

I had a project like that, where the project advisor was, in my opinion, really bad at understanding why our relationship was not working. It was for very different reasons than your situation, I think, but it was very unhealthy and eventually, I had to explain via email and then in person why this was frustrating for me, and I ended up dropping the project. Given, he was not my main advisor, so I could afford to do that, but it's definitely tough.

 

Perhaps it would work for you to outline, for yourself, what you think a reasonable workload would be outside of personality problems. And then within that, sit with a good cup of tea and outline for yourself what kinds of current advisor behaviors would make that kind of workload unreasonable anyway. I think discussing the first part, if you think there is a workload issue, should be fairly simple and I think is easier to defend. One thing I do with my advisor, which I think helps with this understanding, is that we've kind of outlined how much time per week I should/will be working on different things. Then if he asks for me to do extra work, I can explain to him right then, in a matter-of-fact kind of way, what will be sacrificed.

 

The second part is more difficult. Do you know if other advisees are having the same issues?

[prefers_pencils]

Is your advisor an assistant professor? She sure sounds like one, working frantically against her tenure clock and taking you on the crazy train with her. I have seen this a lot, always with untenured professors, and I think it's really sad. In order for the relationship to be successful, you'd need to be really comfortable pushing back, and knowing that no matter what, she'll always ask you to do one more thing - a beast that may never be satisfied. If imagining 5+ years of that seems unbearable, keep pushing to switch advisors.

 

Also, are your communications to the area coordinator as direct as your posts on here? From what you've written, you see to be very tolerant, polite, and accommodating in your interactions with your advisor (and others, I imagine). Could it be that your politeness waters down the urgency of your message? Sometimes faculty are so busy that you really have to metaphorically yell "Fire!" for them to take action - it might feel pushy or uncomfortable to you, but really, they don't notice.

[Maleficent999]

I am sending happy vibes your way.

[Pretty_Penny]

Thanks for your comments, all. I really appreciate it!

 

To address one question: she has tenure so this is not a reflection of her working like crazy to get tenure. This is simply her personality. After my area coordinator spoke with her, she was very nice for about a week, and then things devolved rapidly.

 

I came into a meeting and asked for clarification on her comments on my draft. She had simply said that the paragraph was "unclear", but obviously it had made sense to me so I was having a hard time figuring out exactly in what way it was unclear, which is important to understanding how to fix it. So I asked for additional clarification and she basically told me I'm expecting too much, that this was more feedback than most advisors would give, and that "I sit there and look at her like she's evil because I expect her to tell me what to do and she won't."

 

She then said "First you're complaining about me to other people [presumably in reference to me talking to the DGS/area coordinator] and now you're dinging my feedback style. I'm not going to change so you either have to figure out how to make this work or find a new advisor." I told her I have been trying to make this work and she said that complaining about her feedback isn't trying to make it work.

 

She is also still unhappy that I haven't had a ton of time for lab work, and thinks I am not ready to be an RA. I think, beyond simply being swamped, not doing a ton of lab work may just be due to the fact that I am so extremely depressed over this whole situation. I find it hard to get out of bed, I'm constantly crying, and I am terrified of interacting with her. So, to an extent, I probably do try to avoid getting really deeply involved in the data because I want as little to do with her as possible. My parents and friends are probably sick of hearing me talk about this, but I feel utterly hopeless. I'm going to go to the counseling services center but I feel it won't be helpful if I stay in what I consider to be a toxic situation. My dad is ready to rent a U-Haul and come take me home, but it sucks to think I would have to leave because of this.

Edited November 1, 2013 by Pretty_Penny

[ScienceGiraffe]

what happen to finding a new advisor? this is not going to work for 4 or 5 years. If you do switch professor, you may have to drop your NSF application this year. But i think your sanity for 4 to 5 years is way way way more important than just extra stipent. If you work hard and publish good papers, it will bring your more fame than any NSF fellows...i think finding a new advisor is your 1st piority right now, more important than finishing your NSF application.

[Pretty_Penny]

Hi chris0213li,

 

I had hoped to switch advisors, but after my area coordinator met with my advisor they came to the conclusion that the friction in our relationship was caused by the NSF and that these problems will go away after submission. I disagreed with that, but I'm hesitant to bring up switching again because 1) When my advisor gets upset with me, she brings up the fact that I went behind her back and talked to people so if I do it again and still end up working with her I'm afraid it will make things even worse, 2) I am afraid that if I try to switch labs, she will tell everyone I'm not cut out for this and I won't be able to find another lab to switch into, and 3) I think a part of me is scared she is right and I'm not smart and I'm not working hard enough. It might be irrational, but my self-confidence is shot.

[PsychGirl1]

Here's what I would do- please, someone jump in if I'm giving horrible advice:

 

Stay in the lab for a bit, drop the NSF, and see how things change. But while that is all happening, I'd: 1) go to counseling, 2) start researching other people's labs, trying to figure out where you could fit in research-wise, and what experience you can bring to their lab. I'd probably also start networking with the other professors, and maybe chat with them about their research 1-on-1- just say you're interested in learning more about what they do/research. Then, at this point, depending on your gut feeling, I'd either stay in your lab or work on getting transitioned to a new lab. Or maybe even transitioning to a new school, if nothing seems right at your current one.

 

I hate to defend your professor in any capacity, but I'd also think honestly about yourself and your performance in the lab. Sometimes when we're overwhelmed and depressed and upset about the lack of help from our professor, it can become this circle where we're like "GIVE ME ADVICE" and they're like "NO" and it just keeps going around and escalating. At some point, you might be able to realize you CAN do this. You can attempt a rewrite of that paragraph and submit it and have her be like "good job". You might learn to trust your own gut and make your own decisions and stand up to her. Some advisers try this approach deliberately- which it sounds like she is doing. Some do this accidentally by just being crappy advisers. I don't know how to explain how sometimes the process turns you into a great researcher, but I went through it by being a newcomer to the field with a hands-off adviser. The two years were very up-and-down, but it ended up being a really great process for me personally to go through- although I did cry a decent number of times and bomb a few things along the way :-D. Anyway, I'd email her, telling her you're taking a long weekend to yourself (off for veteran's day?), remove yourself from the situation, go visit friends, and have some drinks. Sometimes just distancing yourself from a situation can help as well.

 

Good luck!