Denied LOR...out of spite?

[Crucial BBQ]

Everyone I have asked to write an LOR on my behalf has accepted, except for one.  I am not worried about that one prof as I asked more than enough people needed just in case one or more said no.  

 

What I do find interesting is the reason that one prof denied my request.  She was fresh out of her post-doc when she came to teach biology at my small, no-name, LAC. I had her last semester, which was only her second semester teaching.  I earned a B- in the course, which was due to the fact that I slacked off on two projects.  The grade, and my "slacking off" are why she felt justified in denying my request.  More power to her, I suppose, but...

 

...I have talked to her extensively not only during class but also outside of class.  Out of anyone, she knows my desires and capabilities more than anyone.  But she still sad no, and told me why.  She could have just said she was too busy, or just flat out ignored my request, right?

 

Here is why I am wondering if her denial is spiteful:  She had the opportunity to attend the #1 school in the world for her chosen program, yet, declined because she could not afford it.  She later found out, after already beginning attendance at a rather less prestigious university, that he-who-would-have-become her mentor, the one who "sponsored" her application, turned out to have an organism named after himself.  In essence, he was a big deal...and she missed out. Two of the schools I had requested she send the LORs to are rather prestigious themselves, which I think ruffled her feathers a little.  

 

Anyone else have this happen to them?  It doesn't matter now as I have a great group of recommenders as it is, but still.  I find it rather amusing. 

[SocGirl2013]

I think you are way overthinking this and the chances of this being the case are slim to none. Either way, this is not worth pondering upon much, she said no and that's done - you have the recs you need, focus on your apps and good luck to you!

[Loric]

Uh.. hmm.. how to respond to this without looking like a jerk..

 

I don't think it was jealousy or spite.

 

I think it's moreso she's still a young professor and still has this notion that "All classes are important" (they're not) and if anything "Her class is important" (it's not) and takes offense to work in her class being slacked off on, like you personally spited her by not doing the assigned she graciously allowed you to do in order to have the honor of being graded by her.

 

Lots of young professors, graduate students - heck, students in general - have this idea that all classes, assignments, work.. etc.. is important. It's not. They get offended when things are treated with the real level of importance that they have in the bigger scope of life, the universe, and existence in general.

[Canadianna]

I would just think it's because a B- combined with a lazy work ethic isn't the kind of academic performance that warrants an LOR. Anyway, why would you want one from someone who, if being honest, would have to say that you slacked off?

[nugget]

One of my profs does not provide a LOR for grad school to students who earn less that a B+ in her classes. I would not be surprised if others have similar policies, unless you have proven that your interests, skills, strengths and abilities warrant you a spot in a grad school program through outside projects or research. While you may have done well in other courses, she only has a snapshot image of your performance based on what you have demonstrated in her classes. If you are looking for an above average LOR, it does not seem wise to select a professor who has only seen average performance from you in her class.

 

Fortunately you already have enough LORs so this experience won't hold you back in the application process. I would focus on getting all of your apps in and move on.

Edited December 9, 2013 by jenste

[Lisa44201]

Ignoring where this professor did or did not go to school.... what sort of letter do you think she'd write about your proven academic abilities? If she knows your capabilities more than anyone, and those capabilities equal a B-, I'd be thanking whatever deity you believe in that she said no.

[Jungshin]

Best wishes on your applications and I'm glad that you have enough LORs.

 

EDIT: I wrote something rather mean and then I deleted it.

mainly because you seem like a smart kid and I'm sure this was just a joke. 

Edited December 9, 2013 by Jungshin

[TakeruK]

I have no idea why you went on that train of thought in trying to justify why she said no to your LOR request. I understand that you may be emotionally invested in this but from an outsider's perspective, your reasoning makes no sense at all. 

 

I think you might be approaching the situation in the wrong way. I am not saying you are a bad student nor that you won't make it into grad school. Your professor's refusal to write an LOR also does not mean that you are a bad student and won't make it into grad school. All the refusal means is that your professor cannot write you a supportive LOR because of your performance in her class and your eventual grade in her class. It doesn't matter how much she knows you outside of class, it doesn't sound like this prof supervised your work, so the only role she can take as a letter writer is "Student's Instructor". As your instructor, the only basis she can write her LOR on is your performance in her class. Anything else would just be a personal recommendation, not a professional recommendation, and graduate school admission committees do not care at all about personal recommendations.

 

It's definitely true that not every single class was important and that even if you made the right decision to slack off in this class (presumably to spend that time doing something more important to your personal or career goals right?), getting a B- is a very good reason for the prof to refuse to write you a LOR as your instructor. Let me say it again to make it really clear:  You asked for a letter of reference from someone who would be writing your LOR as the role of your instructor, and thus would have to comment on your performance in her class, not your general desires and capabilities. So I am not sure why you are surprised when this person refused to write you a letter on the account of the fact that you did poorly in this class. I would doubt that this prof thinks that you are unfit for grad school, but just that she is the wrong person to ask for a LOR! 

 

Remember that LORs in STEM fields should ideally come from research supervisors and a "did well in class" type letter is not ideal. So, from that logic, it would make sense that all your "did well in class" letters better have come from the classes where you were the top student or close to the top!

 

Finally, I feel like you were expecting everyone you ask to actually say yes, and that the only reason for "no" you would expect is something not related to you, such as the prof being too busy, not that you were not good enough. When this did not turn out the way you expected, you searched for other reasons for her refusal, again all of these reasons you think up are not related to you. Rejection sucks, but sometimes it might help to accept that you may have caused this (by slacking off and getting that B-) and figuring out what to change in the future, instead of looking for other places to shift blame. Ultimately, I agree with Lisa44201--I'd be thankful that I got a real rejection and not have to hand in a LOR that said I got a B- in that class (the committee can easily match up your LOR with the grade on your transcript). Also, I think that getting rejected with a real reason is a sign of mutual respect between you and this prof. If I did not care about a student, I would brush them off with excuses or ignoring them until they went away.

[nugget]

I just wanted to add, students are not entitled to receive a LOR from their professors. It needs to be earned. It sounds like you already know that you weren't working hard, thus you did not do so well in the course. Why do you think you are entitled to get a LOR? Because you paid your tuition fees and showed up to class? It would not be fair to other students if she gave you a strong LOR and did the same for those who actually worked hard in her class so I believe that is why you did not get one.

[Loric]

I just wanted to add, students are not entitled to receive a LOR from their professors. It needs to be earned. It sounds like you already know that you weren't working hard, thus you did not do so well in the course. Why do you think you are entitled to get a LOR? Because you paid your tuition fees and showed up to class? It would not be fair to other students if she gave you a strong LOR and did the same for those who actually worked hard in her class so I believe that is why you did not get one.

 

At the same time, there are plenty of profs who expect a lot from their students, have students succeed under those conditions, and then don't bother giving anyone a reccomendation.

 

If you're going to go into teaching you need to accept that you're going to have to write letters of reccomendation for students who put in the effort. It makes you a jerk to not do so.

[Eigen]

I'm going to agree with most other people that she likely didn't write you a letter because you (i) got a low grade, and (ii) got a low grade because you were slacking off. 

 

I wouldn't write a letter under those conditions. Writing a letter is an extension of your reputation.

[Eigen]

At the same time, there are plenty of profs who expect a lot from their students, have students succeed under those conditions, and then don't bother giving anyone a reccomendation.

 

If you're going to go into teaching you need to accept that you're going to have to write letters of reccomendation for students who put in the effort. It makes you a jerk to not do so.

 

Not sure what bearing this (or the previous comment) really have on this discussion, but it doesn't make you a jerk to have high standards for letters. Writing letters is an optional part of the job, it's something that professors do as an extension of their professional reputation. 

[Loric]

Not sure what bearing this (or the previous comment) really have on this discussion, but it doesn't make you a jerk to have high standards for letters. Writing letters is an optional part of the job, it's something that professors do as an extension of their professional reputation. 

 

That you give any weight to  their professional reputation as if it were a thing of actual value is really quite telling.

[Guest Gnome Chomsky]

Everyone I have asked to write an LOR on my behalf has accepted, except for one.  I am not worried about that one prof as I asked more than enough people needed just in case one or more said no.  

 

What I do find interesting is the reason that one prof denied my request.  She was fresh out of her post-doc when she came to teach biology at my small, no-name, LAC. I had her last semester, which was only her second semester teaching.  I earned a B- in the course, which was due to the fact that I slacked off on two projects.  The grade, and my "slacking off" are why she felt justified in denying my request.  More power to her, I suppose, but...

 

...I have talked to her extensively not only during class but also outside of class.  Out of anyone, she knows my desires and capabilities more than anyone.  But she still sad no, and told me why.  She could have just said she was too busy, or just flat out ignored my request, right?

 

Here is why I am wondering if her denial is spiteful:  She had the opportunity to attend the #1 school in the world for her chosen program, yet, declined because she could not afford it.  She later found out, after already beginning attendance at a rather less prestigious university, that he-who-would-have-become her mentor, the one who "sponsored" her application, turned out to have an organism named after himself.  In essence, he was a big deal...and she missed out. Two of the schools I had requested she send the LORs to are rather prestigious themselves, which I think ruffled her feathers a little.  

 

Anyone else have this happen to them?  It doesn't matter now as I have a great group of recommenders as it is, but still.  I find it rather amusing. 

Your post is funny. First off, I don't know why you would ask for a letter from someone whose class you got a B- in. Secondly, you knew the reason you got the B- was because you slacked off and she even admitted that. What kind of recommendation do you think she could give you when you admittedly slacked off in her class? She's supposed to vouch for you as a great student. And third, she was completely honest with you, yet you would have preferred that she just lie or flat out ignore you? 

[TakeruK]

At the same time, there are plenty of profs who expect a lot from their students, have students succeed under those conditions, and then don't bother giving anyone a reccomendation.

 

If you're going to go into teaching you need to accept that you're going to have to write letters of reccomendation for students who put in the effort. It makes you a jerk to not do so.

 

I would agree that part of the responsibility of mentoring or supervising a student is writing a LOR. A responsible supervisor, at the very least, should be able to spend the time to write an appropriate LOR (it does not have to be glowing if the student is not great) and in the ideal case, would help their student make contacts and connections with others in the field in order to help their career. A responsible supervisor will also let their student know that they cannot write a good LOR if that is the case, instead of writing a negative one without informing the student at all!

 

However, I don't think it's the same responsibility for a classroom instructor. In many cases, a professor may teach hundreds of students over the course of a year, and people might go as far as 2-3 years back for LORs! It's certainly very reasonable for a professor to have very high standards for a classroom LOR or even for a professor to refuse all LOR requests from anyone who is not working in their lab/research group.

 

LORs should not be earned merely on "effort", either. LORs should reflect proven and demonstrated academic ability. I don't think a letter that says "Student X tried 110% but only received a B-" is going to be received very well. The way I see it, an LOR is a request for someone to lend both their time (very valuable) and their professional reputation (also valuable), in support of you. This is a big request and you can't expect to "deserve" a LOR just because you tried really hard or you are really interested in the field. Ultimately, a professor will only have time for X number of LORs per year and if they receive more requests than they have time for, then they will have to determine which X students get letters. If I was a prof, I would make sure to always have time for letters for the students and post-docs who are working for me (or who have worked for me in the past). If I still have time to write more letters, I would write them for students whom I think I can do the most good for.

[Loric]

I contest the notion that "professional reputation" is really a factor in 99.9999999999% of these transactions.

 

The adcomm usually has no idea who the LOR writer is and just guesses based on their school affiliation and title.

 

We could make up names and titles and probably even schools and get it past several of the most selective adcomms.

[fuzzylogician]

That you give any weight to  their professional reputation as if it were a thing of actual value is really quite telling.

That you think that a person's professional reputation is not a thing of actual value is really quite telling.

 

OP -- as others have said, I think you are overthinking this. The professor refused because your performance did not merit her support of your scholarship. I don't see what spite or resentment have to do with it. I wouldn't stake my reputation on that kind of record, either.

[Eigen]

I contest the notion that "professional reputation" is really a factor in 99.9999999999% of these transactions.

 

The adcomm usually has no idea who the LOR writer is and just guesses based on their school affiliation and title.

 

We could make up names and titles and probably even schools and get it past several of the most selective adcomms.

 

And just curious, you say this out of your personal experience on admissions committees? Or your past experience as a letter writer? Or....?

 

Please support your hypothesis. 

[papergrader83]

Dear Crucial BBQ (sweet name, btw),

 

I have a full-time job (not tenured) and write LOR for students every year to help them study in the U.S.  In my experience, sometimes I jot down little notes in my grade book about the student. A B- might really mean your work deserved less than that B, you know?

 

That said, I do know one colleague who works with me abroad who is spiteful in this way. Because she had to take undergrad classes before beginning her second master's degree in a new field of study, she's appalled that "these EFL students" have the audacity to shoot for prestigious programs in the U.S. straight out of undergrad with sometimes unrelated majors.

 

While I don't think this colleague represents the norm (thank heavens!), spitefulness does exist.

 

Still, in this case, and just in my experience writing letters, I really look only at students' performance in my class--nothing else (I hope).

 

Anyway, you're set with other letters, so good luck getting in somewhere! 

Edited December 9, 2013 by papergrader83

[Loric]

And just curious, you say this out of your personal experience on admissions committees? Or your past experience as a letter writer? Or....?

 

Please support your hypothesis. 

 

Human interaction... with adcomms admittedly.. but basic human interaction is sufficient evidence that they don't know everyone at every university or college and they don't aspire to and will likely be making many assumptions about the who/what of a LOR based on very limited information.

 

I can show you the software they use to grade LOR's on a rubric if you want, would that make you happy?

[Loric]

Dear Crucial BBQ (sweet name, btw),

 

I have a full-time job (not tenured) and write LOR for students every year to help them study in the U.S.  In my experience, sometimes I jot down little notes in my grade book about the student. A B- might really mean your work deserved less than that B, you know?

 

That said, I do know one colleague who works with me abroad who is spiteful in this way. Because she had to take undergrad classes before beginning her second master's degree in a new field of study, she's appalled that "these EFL students" have the audacity to shoot for prestigious programs in the U.S. straight out of undergrad with sometimes unrelated majors.

 

While I don't think this colleague represents the norm (thank heavens!), spitefulness does exist.

 

Still, in this case, and just in my experience writing letters, I really look only at students' performance in my class--nothing else (I hope).

 

Anyway, you're set with other letters, so good luck getting in somewhere! 

 

See? People =iz= crazy.

[nohika]

I contest the notion that "professional reputation" is really a factor in 99.9999999999% of these transactions.

 

The adcomm usually has no idea who the LOR writer is and just guesses based on their school affiliation and title.

 

We could make up names and titles and probably even schools and get it past several of the most selective adcomms.

 

You say this, but when I was applying for my program, my advisor had contacts at every program I applied to (and the one she didn't, one of my other LOR writers did, and my third had additional contacts). And at several others. Especially in the smaller fields, the smaller interests, people know people. If they don't directly know people, they know people that know the people that are going to get the LOR. The higher you go, the more specialized you get, the more likely it is that someone is going to know someone who knows a lot about the LOR writer or knows someone who does.

[Crucial BBQ]

I would just think it's because a B- combined with a lazy work ethic isn't the kind of academic performance that warrants an LOR. Anyway, why would you want one from someone who, if being honest, would have to say that you slacked off?

 

I didn't want to write a novella as this was more of a topic of honest curiosity than a rebuttal against the prof. The information provided through the course material, as well as corresponding laboratory assignments, were all things I was already familiar with, many with first-hand experience. I nearly aced all tests without even studying.  My contributions to classroom discussions were far beyond what any other student brought to the table in terms of knowledge about the subject.  And, prior to having taken this course, I had taken six advanced courses at my previous school (I am a transfer student) that should have came after this course if it were sequenced correctly (it was/is a 300-level survey course, at my other school it was a 100-level survey course.  Both courses covered the same introductory material), and, had two years solid research, work, volunteer, and other hands-on experience that directly related to this course. 

 

I had discussed all of these courses and experiences, and many other topics relating to these with her since the course, and her Ph.D., were in fields relating to what I desire to pursue in graduate school.   

 

What caused the lowering of my grade where two projects and a missed "mandatory" field trip.  When I turned in those two assignments, I told her they were not the best they could have been, offered my reasons, and told her I had to make a choice between this and that and I choose to bite the bullet on those two assignments.  We talked about it; I took full responsibility.  She handed them back to me right before finals week, giving me the opportunity to improve on them.  It was finals week.  I turned them back in the same as they were.  

 

There   

 

As for what I expected her to write: well, I expected her to be honest.  I expected her to mention her disappointment over those two assignments, yes, but I also expected her mention my overall knowledge and enthusiasm for the field. 

Ignoring where this professor did or did not go to school.... what sort of letter do you think she'd write about your proven academic abilities? If she knows your capabilities more than anyone, and those capabilities equal a B-, I'd be thanking whatever deity you believe in that she said no.

This was a science course and science Ph.D. programs are concerned with the candidate's ability to do research like a science researcher and the desire to do research like a science researcher. Grades, GPA, and GRE scores are only indicators that the student knows how to get good grades and take tests, by what-ever means, and says nothing of their ability to really do science.  I am not protesting the grade.  I have been out in the field with this prof and in the lab with her.  I have had numerous discussions with her about the particular branch of science we are both interested in and she knows first hand what I am capable of and that I would make a competent scientist. 

 

Best wishes on your applications and I'm glad that you have enough LORs.

 

EDIT: I wrote something rather mean and then I deleted it.

mainly because you seem like a smart kid and I'm sure this was just a joke. 

No, it is not a joke.  I expected her, or anyone of the others, to simply say "no" if they were not interested. While I respect her response, ultimately being that it was honest, I did find it a bit snide.   Perhaps that is just my own sensitivity, hence why I asked if anyone else had been in a similar situation.  

 

She did not say she felt I was not prepared for graduate school, and even went on to say that I should seek out another to write an LOR in place of her and wished me luck with my applications.  She just flat-out said she had to deny the request because she gave me a chance to rectify my grade and I did not.  

 

Thanks for the responses everyone. 

Edited December 10, 2013 by Crucial BBQ

[Loric]

And look where her passion to "rectify a grade" got her.. teaching a muddled and lackluster 300-level course that's barely a 100-level at another instituition.

 

How does one convey that upright swirling finger motion and lacksidaisical "whoo.." on a message board? Because that's what I want to convey right now.

Edited December 10, 2013 by Loric

[TakeruK]

I didn't want to write a novella as this was more of a topic of honest curiosity than a rebuttal against the prof. The information provided through the course material, as well as corresponding laboratory assignments, were all things I was already familiar with, many with first-hand experience. I nearly aced all tests without even studying.  My contributions to classroom discussions were far beyond what any other student brought to the table in terms of knowledge about the subject.  And, prior to having taken this course, I had taken six advanced courses at my previous school (I am a transfer student) that should have came after this course if it were sequenced correctly (it was/is a 300-level survey course, at my other school it was a 100-level survey course.  Both courses covered the same introductory material), and, had two years solid research, work, volunteer, and other hands-on experience that directly related to this course. 

 

I had discussed all of these courses and experiences, and many other topics relating to these with her since the course, and her Ph.D., were in fields relating to what I desire to pursue in graduate school.

I am very glad that this is true (sincerely, no sarcasm intended) but all of this is completely irrelevant to what she will write in her LOR. Science professors don't base their LORs on things that their students tell them about, they can only write LORs about things their students actually did under their supervision/guidance. In this case, what you did under her guidance was take her class, not your conversations about your knowledge of the field.

 

(emphasis added below)

What caused the lowering of my grade where two projects and a missed "mandatory" field trip.  When I turned in those two assignments, I told her they were not the best they could have been, offered my reasons, and told her I had to make a choice between this and that and I choose to bite the bullet on those two assignments.  We talked about it; I took full responsibility.  She handed them back to me right before finals week, giving me the opportunity to improve on them.  It was finals week.  I turned them back in the same as they were.

In my opinion, taking full responsibility for an event means owning up to all of the consequences of said actions too, including not getting an LOR because you got had tons of chances to rectify your grade, and you chose not to so you got a B-.

 

There   

 

As for what I expected her to write: well, I expected her to be honest.  I expected her to mention her disappointment over those two assignments, yes, but I also expected her mention my overall knowledge and enthusiasm for the field. 

This was a science course and science Ph.D. programs are concerned with the candidate's ability to do research like a science researcher and the desire to do research like a science researcher. Grades, GPA, and GRE scores are only indicators that the student knows how to get good grades and take tests, by what-ever means, and says nothing of their ability to really do science.  I am not protesting the grade.  I have been out in the field with this prof and in the lab with her.  I have had numerous discussions with her about the particular branch of science we are both interested in and she knows first hand what I am capable of and that I would make a competent scientist.

 

Again, like I said above, she will be writing this LOR as your instructor, so she will be expected to comment on your performance in her class, not about her opinions about your competence as a scientist. Now, if you had collaborated or worked with her and demonstrated your science research ability, then she could write about that. But in this case, she can only write about your classwork. I totally agree that classwork is one of the less important parts of being a graduate student in a science PhD program, but if you knew this, then you should have looked for someone other than your instructor to write your LOR. I still don't understand why you would say "classes are not important" and then asked your class instructor to write an LOR (which would be about classes).

 

She did not say she felt I was not prepared for graduate school, and even went on to say that I should seek out another to write an LOR in place of her and wished me luck with my applications.  She just flat-out said she had to deny the request because she gave me a chance to rectify my grade and I did not.  

 

Thanks for the responses everyone.

This is exactly what everyone else here is saying and I think this is the right thing to do. I even think it's a good thing. For some people, it's hard to say no so some profs will go the route of writing a useless LOR instead of saying no. You would have gotten a negative (worst case) or useless (best case) LOR from this person. I am glad for you that you learned why you did not get the LOR and that you did not end up submitting an LOR from this prof. I do not understand why you think this person did a bad deed and why you think it would be out of spite.