Gender discrimination as a TA/student attendance

[TMP]

I'm a first time (female) TA.  Here's the situation:

The (male) prof doesn't really take attendance but he wants students to e-mail the TAs with an excuse for absence.  The syllabus DOES set a limited of how many unexcused absence students can have before their grades suffer.

 

I'm the female TA for half of the class.  The other TA is a male.  I've received a healthy number of excuses, mostly from male students.  I asked the other TA if he's received any e-mail from the students.  He said not really and was a bit surprised to hear that I had n students e-mail me today.

 

I suspected that something might be in the works here.  But the problem is that the prof has told us "As long as students have legit excuses, just say 'ok'."  I had a student who claims to be running a fever and "is worried" if missing two classes would be a problem.  I forwarded the e-mail onto the prof as I didn't know the answer and the prof said just let it go and wish him to get better.

 

Has anyone been in this situation before where their gender actually mattered?  How did you deal with it?  One of the female colleagues told me that she's very strict about excuses.  But when students uses illness (and it is winter after all), it's hard not to excuse them.  The prof didn't say anything about needing a doctor's note (and I did have one female student who took an extra step to attach a note).

[ritapita]

This is really interesting.  I am not sure I have a valuable response, but I did want to engage.  I have been a TA for 3 years and never really noticed any huge difference.  I am female, and have had a couple males along the way try to sweet talk me, which I don't buy into, and a couple males try to aggressively retaliate against me for not bowing to their demands of accommodation, which had to be taken to departmental admin.  I am also 'out', and have had young newly out female students try to push attendance and due date deadlines - I got the impression they thought I would favor them in some way, compassion for the cause or something, I dont know -  but I shot that down hard too. But then I have had a nice chunk of lazy and manipulative female students as well.  It is really a tossup. I have also taught my own courses for the last 3 years as well, and now I adjunct and I have no problems with any of that, but I am in total control of the situation when I am teaching my own classes.  
 

To answer your questions, I do think gender matters. We could get into some gender theory here to help explain why these guys are bombarding you with excuses, but I will save that for now.  Yes, I think that you might be getting more excuses because of your gender but also paired with the fact that you are only a liaison of power for the professor who clearly seems to be a pushover to begin with.  You are in a position 'above' your students, but you have no power to enforce standards.  It is truly problematic.  However, you also could just be getting the bulk of the problem students.  It would be interesting to try to quantifiably analyze this situation but I am not sure how you could effectively factor in the 'luck of the draw' with your group.  You might just be getting the lazy guys.  We will never truly know, and can only speculate. There is something to this though.

 

Have you talked to the professor about it at all?  I wonder how he would feel about it, and if he would amend his attendance policy at all?  Sounds like the students need a little reality check.  But I think you are doing the right thing with checking in with him on some of them.  Ultimately it is his call, but it doesn't make it easier on you in the mean time.

 

Ultimately I think it helps to ensure that the student is reminded of the attendance policy and that their grade will reflect as such.  If I have frustrating students pushing the boundaries and not participating like that, I just keep giving them the reminder.  When grades hit, they will freak out, and that is when you can say, hey buddy I reminded you each time you asked for an absence, and this is what the result is.  

Edited January 24, 2015 by flyingewe

[1Q84]

I am not female but a few of my female colleagues have run into just somewhat similar troubles. Two examples (from the same colleague): for a while, male students would break rules of varying seriousness and then simply wink at her, thinking they're being charming and that flirting with her would be cause for a pass. She was understandably freaked out by this and consulted a supervisor. Another time, a male student was very touchy with her and would always touch her arm when trying to finesse an accommodation. Again, she was freaked out and consulted a supervisor. Each time she was advised to be firm and remind the students of the inappropriateness of their behavior as well as the rules of the college.

 

I thought one of the most useful tactics was the appeal to authority--remind students that the syllabus acts as a contract: upon entering the class, students agree to abide by those rules to the letter. So any time students get weasly, you can point to the "letter of the law," so to speak, which tends to make any (often male) students less willing to try to continue the smooth talk/arguing schtick.

[C10H12N2O]

Hello,

 

I was a female T.A. last year for a second year statistics class. The class had 5 T.A.s as there were almost 300 students and only one of us was a male (who just happens to be my husband). About 70% of the students e-mailed him their questions, went to only his office hours, and students rarely questioned his exam marking. However, it was a different story for the four female T.A.s. I think the whole 'women can't do math as well as men' stereotype came into play. People rarely e-mailed us questions, I literally had male students come to my office hours and start by saying 'I couldn't go to  Male T.A.s office hours this week do you even know how to do this', and plenty of students handed in their exams to be remarked by the female T.A.s and virtually all of their reasons for needed a remark were unfounded. 

It's funny because myself and one other female T.A., were actually the most advanced in our degrees and had complete several advanced statistics courses while the male T.A., was just starting these courses that year. So I have definitely had pesky gender stereotypes affect me. I just dealt with it by being firm and standing by my marking and my decisions.

I know our experiences are different but I have a bit of advice none the less. Since the rules of the class are already in place there isn't much you can do now. I would probably ask for a Dr's note if a student had already used the excuse of being sick earlier in the term or were asking to miss an exam &c. Maybe suggest to your prof that he should have a max of 3 (or whatever number) of absences before students start loosing marks for attendance. After the '3' days they should have to provide a note for their absence. 

Edited February 4, 2015 by C10H12N2O

[ilovelab]

As a guy I've never experienced that while TA'ing. That being said our sections were optional. I did have more students come up to me during exams for help then my fellow TA's. They probably thought I would help them more with the exam than the other TA's. Honestly I don't think there's gender discrimination, the students may think you are the nicer TA and the students think they can get away with their lame excuses with you vs the other TA.

[Vene]

As a guy I've never experienced that while TA'ing. That being said our sections were optional. I did have more students come up to me during exams for help then my fellow TA's. They probably thought I would help them more with the exam than the other TA's. Honestly I don't think there's gender discrimination, the students may think you are the nicer TA and the students think they can get away with their lame excuses with you vs the other TA.

*bolded for emphasis*

 

It can actually be really hard to notice implicit bias when you're not the target of it. But, talk to most any woman and you'll hear plenty of stories.

[bsharpe269]

*bolded for emphasis*

 

It can actually be really hard to notice implicit bias when you're not the target of it. But, talk to most any woman and you'll hear plenty of stories.

 

THIS. I am female who studies biophysics. My current campus has the main campus and then within walking distance but still pretty separate is the "engineering" side of campus with engineering, comp sci, and physics buildings.

 

I swear that just yesterday, this guy came up to me and said "Are you sure you're on the right side campus?" Umm excuse me???  He seemed to mean it in a flirty way and then proceeded to explain that he doesn't see many women over here. Does he really think that I might be interested in dating him after he insults my gender? Why is this ok to say to women but a problem to say about ethnicity or socioeconomic status. I'm a girl and I do science/math. If a guy seriously is concerned about the lack of women in STEM then do some outreach and encourage young women to pursue science. If you don't care enough to do that then you really don't need to be insulting us.

 

I have totally noticed that unlike my male peers, I have to prove myself. Men don't seem to want to ask me to be in groups for projects or ask me questions they like do men in the class. It is only after I kick their butt on the midterm that they seem to take me seriously.

[neumiz]

I'm also a female TA in hard sciences, I've been teaching for 3 years and I've usually been the preferred TA for contact compared to the other (all female) TAs in the courses I've taught.  It may very well be gender discrimination in your case, but it might also be that you're more approachable/inviting/whatever.  I honestly think one of the big reasons students have preferred contacting me over other TAs is that my name is impossible to misspell.  
As far as attendance goes, I would assume if it isn't an issue with your advisor then it isn't really an issue.  It will show in their grade whether or not they've been attending class.  

[GeoDUDE!]

I dont know the situation, but If the TA was cute (and yes, being a women is required to be cute in this case) I would rather speak to her than the dude. But I'm guessing that kinda gender bias is more acceptable? 

[fuzzylogician]

But I'm guessing that kinda gender bias is more acceptable? 

 

No. 

 

I'm sorry, but that's not ok. It's exactly the kind of behavior that makes us feel like we are not being taken seriously. 

[Vene]

I dont know the situation, but If the TA was cute (and yes, being a women is required to be cute in this case) I would rather speak to her than the dude. But I'm guessing that kinda gender bias is more acceptable? 

Some reading for you:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/oliver-burkemans-blog/2012/dec/12/stereotypes-bad-even-when-good (cited experiment if you prefer)

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/ulterior-motives/201302/the-pain-positive-stereotypes (cited experiment if you prefer)

[GeoDUDE!]

No. 

 

I'm sorry, but that's not ok. It's exactly the kind of behavior that makes us feel like we are not being taken seriously. 

 

Some reading for you:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/oliver-burkemans-blog/2012/dec/12/stereotypes-bad-even-when-good (cited experiment if you prefer)

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/ulterior-motives/201302/the-pain-positive-stereotypes (cited experiment if you prefer)

 

I don't think stereotypes and situation I described is the same. And to be clear just because you find someone attractive does not mean you 1) flirt with them or 2) try and make them feel uncomfortable in anyway. It just means your attracted to them (cute) and thats part of life.  Maybe I'm the only one who likes to be around people I find attractive, when given a choice, and I've just learned a valuable lesson.  Its better that I learned it here then in a place that has real consequences. 

[BeatrizBear]

If you're not actually going to make a move or do anything about your attraction then it shouldn't matter if the person is attractive or not. TAs are there to teach you and assist the professor so their physical appearance is not relevant to their job. Also, TAs notice when people come to them more than the other TA and it makes people insecure. In the case of women, it makes them worried that people are not taking them seriously and that the person just came by to stare at their "cuteness" as you said.

[thr0waway]

I'm a first time (female) TA.  Here's the situation:

The (male) prof doesn't really take attendance but he wants students to e-mail the TAs with an excuse for absence.  The syllabus DOES set a limited of how many unexcused absence students can have before their grades suffer.

 

I'm the female TA for half of the class.  The other TA is a male.  I've received a healthy number of excuses, mostly from male students.  I asked the other TA if he's received any e-mail from the students.  He said not really and was a bit surprised to hear that I had n students e-mail me today.

 

I suspected that something might be in the works here.  But the problem is that the prof has told us "As long as students have legit excuses, just say 'ok'."  I had a student who claims to be running a fever and "is worried" if missing two classes would be a problem.  I forwarded the e-mail onto the prof as I didn't know the answer and the prof said just let it go and wish him to get better.

 

Has anyone been in this situation before where their gender actually mattered?  How did you deal with it?  One of the female colleagues told me that she's very strict about excuses.  But when students uses illness (and it is winter after all), it's hard not to excuse them.  The prof didn't say anything about needing a doctor's note (and I did have one female student who took an extra step to attach a note).

 

they might just think you're nicer, or recognize you more than the other TA

 

like if i'd only ever talked to one TA and felt they were friendlier, i would probably want to email them instead of the other TA

 

it's not necessarily a bad thing (or gender related) and it doesn't mean they're trying to undermine your authority or anything like that

[Cheshire_Cat]

I think a lot of it depends on your persona. And just because they approach you more doesn't mean they don't respect you as much.  I carry myself like I know what I'm doing, and that is just how it is. Subsequently, I think I am the only person on the planet who is stopped on the subway to be asked for directions more frequently than to be asked for money.  But it is because I apparently seem like I know what I'm doing, and that I'm not an easy mark.  My boss has the biggest smile on the planet, and he always gets asked for money.

[fuzzylogician]

See, gender discrimination is difficult to detect and easy to dismiss. Unless someone flat out tells you they are treating you differently because of your gender or it's somehow obvious (and sometimes even then!) it's very easy to assume that the behavior comes from another source. Maybe they think you are more competent, or they don't like the other TA's tone of voice or shoes or god knows what, maybe your office hours are more convenient or your name is easier to remember, or they get the impression that the professor likes you more than the other TA. It may be easy to see that you are treated differently than a male TA, but you don't ever know why. Maybe it is because they think you are "cute" or incompetent or a pushover. I think in these situations it's very important to acknowledge and validate a person's feelings if they think they are being treated differently, and at least acknowledge that it's possible that gender discrimination is the reason why. 

 

TMP -- I have a similar "treated differently but god knows why" story. My second semester TAing as an MA student, it was me and a male TA covering two sections. We would prepare our materials together and teach our sections one after the other. They both did equally well on the exams and assignments. At the end of the semester, he got very positive comments on his level of preparation and his notes, and I got negative comments. They were the same! I have no explanation for why the students perceived it differently. But if it helps, that same group also gave me my favorite comment so far on any teaching evaluation, "the TA is too short, she does not use the blackboard properly," in the suggestions for improvement section. 

[Cheshire_Cat]

I'm not saying some gender discrimination doesn't happen.  I have an engineering friend with stories.  However, if it isn't easy to detect, and easy to dismiss, then maybe it has nothing to do with your gender.  Sometimes people just don't click.  For instance, I have one manager who I don't get along with.  We are difference races, so someone could think that that is the reason.  However, my favorite manager ever is also that race, so I know that isn't the reason, at least on my side.  We just don't get along.

[victorydance]

If you're not actually going to make a move or do anything about your attraction then it shouldn't matter if the person is attractive or not. TAs are there to teach you and assist the professor so their physical appearance is not relevant to their job. Also, TAs notice when people come to them more than the other TA and it makes people insecure. In the case of women, it makes them worried that people are not taking them seriously and that the person just came by to stare at their "cuteness" as you said.

 

Is it any different in the case of male TAs?

 

I would be willing to wager that there are more girls using their looks to try manipulate a male TA than the other way around. 

[Enhydra]

TMP -- I have a similar "treated differently but god knows why" story. My second semester TAing as an MA student, it was me and a male TA covering two sections. We would prepare our materials together and teach our sections one after the other. They both did equally well on the exams and assignments. At the end of the semester, he got very positive comments on his level of preparation and his notes, and I got negative comments. They were the same! I have no explanation for why the students perceived it differently. But if it helps, that same group also gave me my favorite comment so far on any teaching evaluation, "the TA is too short, she does not use the blackboard properly," in the suggestions for improvement section. 

Here's a study that shows similar results to your experience: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10755-014-9313-4

 

 

Student ratings of teaching play a significant role in career outcomes for higher education instructors. Although instructor gender has been shown to play an important role in influencing student ratings, the extent and nature of that role remains contested. While difficult to separate gender from teaching practices in person, it is possible to disguise an instructor’s gender identity online. In our experiment, assistant instructors in an online class each operated under two different gender identities. Students rated the male identity significantly higher than the female identity, regardless of the instructor’s actual gender, demonstrating gender bias. Given the vital role that student ratings play in academic career trajectories, this finding warrants considerable attention.

[fuzzylogician]

Relevantly: http://benschmidt.org/profGender/#

 

Try: smart, clever, knowledgeable, cool, awesome, excellent, great, best, worst, terrible, awful, horrible, unfair, incompetent, annoying, crazy, insane

professor, lecturer, teacher, instructor

 

(also compare: handsome, beautiful)

(and because it's fascinating: male vs. female; men vs. women)

 

((fun with language data: the reason I'm a linguist))

[St Andrews Lynx]

I don't think stereotypes and situation I described is the same. And to be clear just because you find someone attractive does not mean you 1) flirt with them or 2) try and make them feel uncomfortable in anyway. It just means your attracted to them (cute) and thats part of life.  Maybe I'm the only one who likes to be around people I find attractive, when given a choice, and I've just learned a valuable lesson.  Its better that I learned it here then in a place that has real consequences. 

 

Giving a female TA all the attention just because she's "cute" is demeaning (do you care nothing about her ability to explain things, her knowledge of the subject or experience in the classroom?). Female TAs don't exist solely for your visual pleasure, they exist to help with your education. Nor do "innocent" male intentions always translate the same way to women on the receiving end. You can tell if somebody is checking you out, right? Do you think female TAs won't realise that you are only asking them questions because you think they're hot? 

[BeatrizBear]

Is it any different in the case of male TAs?

 

I would be willing to wager that there are more girls using their looks to try manipulate a male TA than the other way around. 

 

My post was solely in reference to what the other poster was saying. Also, saying more girls flirt with male TAs does not somehow eliminate the discrimination that female TAs experience. And people in this thread have already given anecdotes and data on how the experience is worse when you're a woman. Women not being taking seriously in their field is a real issue.

[Vene]

Is it any different in the case of male TAs?

 

I would be willing to wager that there are more girls using their looks to try manipulate a male TA than the other way around. 

Speaking in generalities here:

 

When a male student flirts with a female TA, he's doing it because he is attracted to her. She is an object of his desire. Emphasis on her being an object.

 

When a female student flirts with a male TA, it's because he's in a position of authority and she wants favor. It is not because she desires him, instead she is trying to use her body as currency.

 

There is a world of difference between these two events.

[victorydance]

Speaking in generalities here:

 

When a male student flirts with a female TA, he's doing it because he is attracted to her. She is an object of his desire. Emphasis on her being an object.

 

When a female student flirts with a male TA, it's because he's in a position of authority and she wants favor. It is not because she desires him, instead she is trying to use her body as currency.

 

There is a world of difference between these two events.

 

 

How did you come to make these assumptions?

[victorydance]

My post was solely in reference to what the other poster was saying. Also, saying more girls flirt with male TAs does not somehow eliminate the discrimination that female TAs experience. And people in this thread have already given anecdotes and data on how the experience is worse when you're a woman. Women not being taking seriously in their field is a real issue.

 

No, it's a bunch of women coming into the thread giving their accounts. I am trying to point out that there are two sides to this coin which seems to the large devil in the room. These so called instances of "gender discrimination" (whether they were actual discrimination or due to a large number of other factors is irrelevant) seem to only matter when they are happening to women given the tone of this thread. And the post above me is a perfect example of that.