Potential Laboratory Sabotage

[ssfgrad]

I have had issues with my lab-mate since I began my PhD work last August. I entered the program with a MS.  I have to keep the details vague due to the immensity of this situation. I joined a lab of two other graduate students, let’s call them Sarah and Veronica. I entered the lab at the same time as a lab tech, John. When I interviewed for the lab I sensed that something was off with the graduate student dynamic. Which, in hindsight, should have been a red flag. Sarah became the person that my PI wanted me to work with. Our research areas overlapped and she was a very smart, productive student. I was even placed on a side-project with her. It soon became evident that she was a very controlling/micromanaging person. She works seven days a week and is always in lab. This personality type is very common in the sciences, so I wasn’t immediately put off. I did however have problems with how she talked about people. She held no trust for anything that anyone did. She ridiculed the skill set and work ethic of others constantly. She was also very close with my advisor. She was deemed that she was the only person in lab that was allowed to mix solutions. She was also the only person in lab training John and myself, even though Veronica is the most senior student. John was placed on a project using techniques that only Sarah uses. He had previous experience with these techniques. His results showed consistent, unexplainable contamination. He spent many weeks troubleshooting this work and eventually had one successful run. He was then taken off of the project, because of the failed attempts. I worked on a protocol that takes three days to complete where my materials must sit out in lab for three days. The first time that Sarah trained me my results were, “better than she had ever gotten them to work”. I then spent months trying to replicate them. Each time I would run this work I would get weak to no signal in the results. I knew that I was following the protocol. Other people weren’t having any issues, including undergrads. I even ran at the same time as Sarah using all of the same materials.  Still the same result of nothing happened. Each week I went to my PI with zero data. I am not uncomfortable with laboratory procedures and didn’t have any problems with them during my masters. I optimized an old protocol of Sarah’s (tweaking concentrations) and began another type of lab work. It was working with beautiful results. Sarah began to hover over me. She began to go through my notebook every time I turned my back. She was monitoring me and tattling to my advisor about solution volumes and concentrations. She told me that my methodology was completely inconsistent. I asked her why she thought that, because I knew that I was doing everything in my power to reduce variation. She was talking about a run from 1.5 months prior in which one of my 5’s looked slightly like a 3.  It had been consistent. It seemed she was looking for problems. This is when I started to think that she may be sabotaging my lab work. I talked to Veronica. I told her that I couldn’t breathe in lab and that her level of micromanagement was not appropriate.  I then told her that I felt crazy, but I was starting to think she could be sabotaging me. Veronica’s face dropped and she said, “I wish I could dispel that completely. There is no proof, but other’s have felt this way as well.” She explained that her and a previous lab mate had thought that. I was terrified at this point.  Things escalated with her and I was very paranoid. I talked to John and said the same thing, “I feel crazy, I feel like she is messing with my stuff.” He then told me that he had thought the same thing. He said that he put out decoy reagents and hid his reagents. That was when he had the one successful run. This fact only furthered my suspicions. I waited for her to go out of town for a conference and performed the protocol that had not worked for me since the very first run.  It worked. I didn’t do anything differently. I had spent over 300 hours and thousands of grant money troubleshooting this. It worked. When she came back, she was very off. She spent three hours in my advisors office having what Veronica said was an existential crisis. Veronica claimed that Sarah said, “If science is going to make me a bad person, I think I should quit.” I have now had two more successful runs. Now I am at a crossroads. I think she will back off, but I can’t be certain.  I now have complete disdain for Sarah, yet have to see her everyday.  I can’t talk about it to my PI, because it is such a bold accusation without concrete proof. This could result in funding being pulled or affect my PI’s tenure. I also believe it be a disservice to the scientific community as a whole to let an individual like this continue.  At this point, all I can do is get past it or provide evidence. I can’t focus to write or read. If anyone can give me advice I would be very gracious to hear it. Thank you for letting me get this off my chest.                  

[dr. t]

[Eigen]

Sadly, I wish I could say that this was uncommon. I know stories similar to this at almost all of the major (i.e., top ranked) institutions in my field, where the pressure is immense. 

On the plus side, it seems like it's just one person! Some labs can get so toxic, everyone ends up following the bad apples example and sabotaging/stealing results to get ahead. 

I don't know that I can give you advice, but I'm really glad you're through (what seems like) the worst of it. 

[St Andrews Lynx]

I think that you need to talk to your advisor about this, and promptly.

You do have evidence at this point: the things that you have told us in the post. Experiments don't work when she is around; but do when she isn't. Setting out decoy reagents and the reactions work. Unless you set up CCTV cameras in the lab, you aren't going to get evidence that is much better than this.

My advice would be to talk to the advisor with your fellow group members. Bring along a written summary of the evidence and concerns. Leave out the aspects of Sarah's personality (micromanager, ridiculing others, etc) and stick to the "sabotage facts". Keep calm: your PI might respond with shock or anger (if they have suspected nothing up until this point), you don't want to derail the discussion. 

If your PI refuses to admit there's a problem or does nothing, then you might consider talking to a university ombudsman (impartial mediator) to get advice on what to do next. Or resigning from the lab if you don't want to support unethical research. Hopefully the PI will listen to your concerns. 

In the interim, try to keep your research secured and confidential. That might mean locking up your lab notebooks, setting up decoy reagents/hiding your own reagents. 

Sabotaging other people's work is an awful thing to do - but it isn't as bad for the PI w. respect to their tenure/funding/publications as if this student was faking positive data (that subsequently got into their grants or papers). I don't think that concern for the PI's wellbeing should stop you from reporting the suspicious behaviour. 

[Concordia]

This makes me glad I'm a historian.

St. A's procedure for keeping your lab bench secure seems to be sound.  And from what you've said, the perpetrator may be in the process of melting down and betraying herself, so it may get resolved anyway.

But just in case, gather your facts, make sure your other lab partners are in agreement, and follow whatever the official procedure is if you don't think there is a chance of getting the right result by speaking informally to your PI.  If your PI administers or tolerates this kind of craziness, he/she won't be someone you'd want to have tenure. 

 

[ssfgrad]

Things have certainly escalated:

I wrote the original post while attending an academic conference.  At this conference, I was able to avoid rooming with my lab mates and room with some very close science friends.  My entire lab from my MS attended the conference, as well a some friends from my BS.  I was surrounded by many friends and scientists who like and respect me.  I had discussed all of my problems with my previous lab mates, as we all talk weekly.  They saw me go from, "these girls are weird" to "I don't think they like me" to "something weird is going on" to "I think Sarah could be messing with my stuff" to "She is messing with my stuff", a natural progression of a toxic/abusive lab environment (as I am finding out through researching this awful predicament). I was cordial to Sarah throughout the conference, but spent the majority of my time attending seminars and catching up with old friends. I received and email on the last day of the conference from my boss:

"Since things in lab have clearly not improved and seem to have escalated, I'd like to have a group meeting tomorrow to discuss these issues.  Please come prepared to discuss the issues, what you have done in the last couple of weeks to make things better, and your solutions for moving forward. This childish and counterproductive behavior needs to stop now!

this meeting is mandatory - tomorrow (Monday) at 10:30am in my office."

 

I was confused. I texted Veronica, "Have I been inappropriate, what's going on?".  

 

She responded, "I would have guessed that your friend Jill would have told you what she has been doing to Sarah all conference."

 

I talked to Jill, who said that she had three interactions with Sarah.  This kind of made me mad, because they were instructed to avoid her at all costs.  Jill is a New Yorker and can come across as a little harsh at times.  She explained she wasn't happy to meet the girl, but couldn't think of what would warrant an emergency lab meeting. I was very nervous.  At this point it became clear to me that I was dealing with someone who is mentally unstable and driven by fear and paranoia. I'm sure she did run into my friends, as I have many of them that were in attendance at this conference.  I'm sure they were less than happy to meet her.  I think this prompted a response to situations that were in reality non-issues, but were escalated in her head.  Regardless, I am not capable of controlling the actions of other people.  I most certainly wouldn't want to cause more problems for myself in this lab.  

 

I felt pushed against a wall, I sent this email in response (**** for some degree of anonymity):

 

"I will be happy to meet and discuss.  I'm not entirely sure what this is about. I'm hoping that this is some sort of misunderstanding, as my recent interactions with Sarah have been friendly.  

 

I do think that I need to meet with you privately again as well. I have debated for months about coming to you. I think that since we are fact driven people the best thing for me to do is present you with the facts. I am hoping that this will shed some light on why I came to you last month.

 

1. My first **** worked.  It had ****, but the ***** quality was very poor. I was told by Sarah that it looked better than she had ever gotten it to work.

 

2. After that first run, my other **** did not work.  Even after trouble-shooting.

 

3. I felt like I was being hovered over by Sarah in the lab, as I told you when we met.

 

4. I talked to Veronica to express my frustrations. I told her "I hope that I'm wrong, I know this can't be the case, but is there any way Sarah could be messing with my stuff?" She said, "I wish I could dispell that completely, but you aren't the only person who has thought this. There has been no proof of it."

 

5. When things did not get better. I mentioned the same thing to John. He said he hadn't told anyone about this, but he had thought that Sarah was messing with his lab work as well. This was when his **** results were inconclusive.  John said he hid his reagents and then had a successful run. 

 

6. I didn't run an **** when Sarah was out of town in January. Sarah convinced me not to run one when she went to ****, telling me that I needed to "step away from it for a while."

 

7. Sarah went out of town for another conference in June. I ran an ****. It worked and has worked since.

 

I understand this is all circumstantial which is why I did not present it to you when we spoke last. But I now feel like I need to protect myself. That being said, I hope that this is not the case. Despite these events, I have made every effort to be cordial and professional with Sarah since I came to you in May. 

 

I am looking to you for guidance,

 

****"

I received no response.

 

The next morning, I sat down in a room where everyone was against me (PI, Sarah, and now Veronica).  The first thing that my PI said was, "Is anyone here sabotaging or has sabotaged anyone else's work.  No? No? No? OK, good. We can forget that completely. It looks like you want to say something?".

 

I explained my case.  Veronica made it seem like she told me that it was just "where she was in her research" when she thought that.  I was told that "things just happen in research" and that "we all get frustrated at times".  I was told how inappropriate it was to talk to anyone about my suspicions.  I was told it was inappropriate to talk to John or anyone else at my university.  I was mobbed by everyone in my lab.  They asked me how and why I think that could happen, I kept my mouth shut even though I had a very good idea of how and why all of this would be happening.  Sarah was in control of everyone.  She was manipulating their ability to see this situation for was it was.  She said that my friend grabbed her and screamed at her in a crowded room.  She said she feared for her physical safety. Jill, who I trust above most people, denies this completely. Sarah said that she didn't come to me, because it would likely get physical. She said that everyone at the conference seemed to know, including he president (who I definitely hadn't told, but am very close with). After all of these months of torturing me, she was playing the victim. I wasn't able to speak my side fully because I was being bombarded from every corner.   

 

Here are some great links to bullying and mobbing behavior:

http://bullyonline.org/old/workbully/mobbing.htm

http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2013/12/28/bullying-at-work-workplace-mobbing-is-on-the-rise/

http://www.eremedia.com/tlnt/when-bullying-turns-into-mobbing-everyone-in-the-workplace-loses/

 

Here are some great links to dealing with someone with borderline personality disorder in the workplace: 

http://www.borderline-personality-disorder.com/relationships/employee-or-coworker/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/carol-w-berman-md/9-tips-on-how-to-recogniz_b_5224432.html

 

The parallels to my situation are eery and scary. 

 

Jill sent a letter to my PI. My PI said that it was obvious someone wasn't being completely honest.  Two weeks went by and they were creepily nice to me.  Treating me like a bomb that could go off at any second.  I can't focus on my work.  I feel like such injustice was served and that I would never be in control of my own research or relationship with my PI.  I started to see a counselor at my school.  She agrees that I am dealing with a very sick person and that the perception of reality in my lab is so warped that it is an unsafe environment.  She is wonderful and is helping a lot.  

 

Until yesterday...    

I was putting my specimens away in our freezer.  We recently moved from a -80ºC to a -20ºC freezer, because our -80ºC shorted out.  The specimens are fine to be stored at -20ºC and had been in that freezer all last week.  Each project I have has a separate box that is in a separate bag. The last time I had opened these boxes was on Friday (two days prior). I opened the boxes and there was a clear/gritty powdery substance all of my specimens.  I opened another box and they had the same thing.  Three boxes, all of my major projects all had powder covering them.  No one else's boxes were effected.  This happened over the weekend when, you guessed it, only Sarah was working. I have had issue with specimen quality, and when troubleshooting a month ago I explained to my PI that the specimens that sat in the freezer for longer seemed to look worse. It didn't make sense, because they should be able to sit for years. It kind of does now.  I'm fairly certain, that this has been going on for a while and that the move to a higher temperature made it more evident. 

 

Email sent to my PI:

 

"I just wanted to pass this along to you.  There was some weird gritty powder all of my specimens in the -20ºC this morning.  They were sealed in boxes in separate bags.  I passed it along to Veronica and Sarah to make sure that they checked their slides as well.  So far, it looks like my slides are the only ones effected. I think it will just wash off, I will know if it effects any of the lab work next week. Just wanted to tell you so that you could check your specimens when you get back in town.  It almost looks like salt or ground up desiccant.  Let me know if you have any idea what could cause this, so that I can prevent it in the future."

 

Response:

 

"ok, thanks for letting me know.  looks like it could be desicant dust.  you might want to give those slides a few dips in **** before you start **** with them to see if you can wash it off."

 

Its amazing that everything can be explained away by a magical coincidence in a scientific laboratory. I'm at wits end.  I don't know how much more abuse I can take here.  I'm mostly posting here to protect myself and keep (yet another) paper trail.  Any opinions will be very appreciated.  

 

 

 

[St Andrews Lynx]

Yeah, it was probably not a good idea to talk to your everyone else but your PI about the sabotage. Regardless of the validity of the concerns, pumping it through a rumour mill rather than going through professional channels undermines your case and leads to too many hurt feelings. It sounds like the comments you made about Sarah prompted your friends to behave in ways - as you said - out of your control. And now she has the opportunity to play the victim, not necessarily without justification.

I get the feeling that the sabotage described is only the tip of a whole f**ked-up iceberg of a dysfunctional lab. If the situation is really worse than this anecdote, I'd consider leaving the lab as diplomatically as possible before (i) you are fired (ii) something even worse (professionally or personally) happens. You don't want your future career tarred with what has been going on around you.

[ssfgrad]

Thanks. I agree. The lab is toxic and was toxic before I started, as is evidenced from multiple stories I tried to ignore. Its so disheartening, because I would have the potential to do great things here if allowed to.  Not speaking to anyone about it wasn't really an option, and I could have never known that things would escalate like this or that I would ever have these suspicions. I only went to Veronica and John to make sure it wasn't an issue I was having.  When they confirmed the same feelings it was an awful blow.  When I was told that I shouldn't talk about the goings ons in my lab it was an attempt to isolate me, which is text book abuse.  "Keeping it in the family", if you will.  I really think the greater concern is why a first year was made to feel like this in the first place. It really doesn't matter either way, I regret joining this lab every day. I doubt I will continue in this career path if I drop out.  

[Chai_latte]

2 hours ago, ssfgrad said:

I really think the greater concern is why a first year was made to feel like this in the first place. It really doesn't matter either way, I regret joining this lab every day. I doubt I will continue in this career path if I drop out.  

I think you should leave that lab, but I don't think you should drop out/switch careers because of this.  You said it yourself, you could've done "great things"...and you still can (in another lab).  Please don't allow her to sabotage your career plans.  Maybe there's another lab within the department that can meet your needs.  If not, don't rule out other institutions.  Regardless of your next step, I really hope things get better.

[Neist]

I just finished taking a professional ethics course at my university this week, and this could have easily been one of the case studies. Nutty.

I don't think that talking to fellow lab members was necessarily a bad idea. However, I would echo the comments that suggest leaving the lab, if possible, and if you can do it painlessly without airing laundry, I'd consider going that way.

I'm really sorry that you have to go through this situation.  

[Butterfly_effect]

OP, can you give us an update? I'm so sorry you've had to deal with this. It's probably my worst nightmare.

[ssfgrad]

Nothing else has happened since my 8/9/16 update. Sarah has been eerily nice to me while Veronica has ignored me. I will run the lab work on the dusty slides this week. My PI has been out of town for the past two weeks.  

 

[ssfgrad]

My slides are not really usable. I plan to resign from the lab.   

[Chai_latte]

Well, I really hope you can find a new lab that's a much better fit.  Best of luck to you.

[ZeChocMoose]

Before you resign - do you have another lab lined up?  I know things have been really rough for you - but resigning without having another lab secured seems really risky.

Couldn't you circle back to your professor again and tell him/her that the slides aren't usable?

[thescientist]

I'm so sorry you're resigning over this. :< I remember a case where the perpetrator was caught on camera, spiking someone's cells with ethanol. The victim had talked with the PI first IIRC, and they had agreed to set up the camera, even though the PI didn't believe that this person would contaminate the cells intentionally. 

Is there a way you could ensure this person is fully followed up on before you leave? BUT bear in mind it is not your responsibility to make everything right for anyone other than you! 

Wow, I'm really sorry you had to go through this. 

[ssfgrad]

Thanks for all of the help everyone.  This thread was really the only place I could talk about this for a while.  I did resign, and I do not have another lab lined up.  I am a non-traditional student, with a family and a house.  It will take me a couple of years to logistically prepare for a move to another university.  I can now say, I 100% made the right choice.  It has been so incredibly difficult to walk away from something that I hold so close to me, especially through no fault of my own. I cannot lie, I am battling what I can only describe as PTSD. Its bad, but it doesn't hold a candle to how I felt in that lab.  I reported my situation to the department head and the graduate school, with all of the details and all of the names. I would love to see Sarah be found out, but mostly I wanted to make sure a record was created to prevent anyone from going through this again.  

Just to give everyone an update on how my resignation went:

-I pled my case to my PI, for what felt like the 100th time.  It was long winded. Basically, I told her that I believed that Sarah was very dangerous and that I could not be associated with things I viewed as unethical. 

-The PI told me that she may be biased due to Sarah's productivity, but she didn't think that I had all of my information correct. She explained to me why everyone who thought that Sarah was a saboteur was wrong. The master's student who graduated before I got there "was crazy". John's stuff "just never worked". Veronica was "just at a point in her research" where she thought that. For my research it was explained by, "sometimes stuff just doesn't work and then it does". She said that she was sorry to see me go, but didn't see any other option. She asked that I email my committee and tell them I was resigning.

-I emailed my committee. Most people responded with very nice, but shocked emails. I know that I come across as a capable, passionate, level headed scientist, so I'm sure they were very shocked. One committee member, who Veronica and the previous MS student were close with emailed me back. She asked why I was resigning. I knew that Veronica and the other student had spoken to this professor about Sarah, but had not mentioned sabotage. I explained to the professor that I didn't know how much I could divulge, but I resigned because I felt that another graduate student was abusive. She pressed me and so I sent her a link to this posting. She then explained to me that if a lab has secrets like this it is a total red flag. She also said that if I had talked to people in the department I would have found out that Sarah is viewed by many as "diabolical".

-I know what you're thinking, why didn't I talk to anyone sooner? I would have been treated like (more of) a pariah by the lab if I did that. Also, I don't think working under this PI was in my best interest. She clearly was not going to be swayed away from Sarah's insanity. I would never be allowed to produce quality work there.   

So, now....

My friend works in Sarah's undergraduate lab. She explained to me that the senior graduate student had worked closely with Sarah. That student said that Sarah only brought drama. Sarah accused the student of stealing her ideas and would go crying to the PI and complain about the grad student.  Sound familiar?  

I emailed Veronica and told her that I believed Sarah to be a sick individual that uses emotional outbursts to manipulate people into taking her side. I asked that she try to logically review what happened in the lab. I hope that this can protect the newest member of that lab. 

What now?

I have no freaking idea. I am a person who always has a plan and ten back up plans. I haven't been plan-less since high school. I'm healing now. I'm browsing research assistant positions in other labs (at different universities). I sincerely hope that the PI doesn't prevent me from moving forward in this career path. I have a lot of other amazing scientists in my corner, so letter's of rec will not be a problem at all.     

Who knows, maybe you will see a happy update from me down the road.       

[fuzzylogician]

@ssfgrad thank you for the update. It sounds like you made the right decision at this point in time. Your mental health is more important than a graduate student position in a toxic lab. I hope that once you've recovered a little, you can find a way to join another university and get the education that you desire in a better-suited environment. From all that you write, I have no doubt that you will be successful. Please do come back and update us if and when you have news. I hope it's all good from here on out. 

[thescientist]

"Sometimes stuff just doesn't work and then it does" - yeah, not in science, if you're controlling all variables. It's hurting my head even trying to imagine my advisor saying that. Sounds like your PI is in some sort of denial, I'm afraid, probably because they see Sarah as a good worker and someone they don't want to lose. 

I fully understand why you didn't talk to anyone sooner. It can be very difficult to know who to trust and who will change their views of you based on what you say. Congratulations on getting out of there. 

[dr. t]

Or that if Sarah has been manipulating results to produce negatives, who says she isn't doing the opposite too? And that would blow back on the professor.

When you have time and space, I would encourage you to reflect on how you handled this politically. My read is: not particularly well. Not that you should have - this isn't something we're trained explicitly for. But remember the lessons going forward.

[ssfgrad]

18 hours ago, telkanuru said:

Or that if Sarah has been manipulating results to produce negatives, who says she isn't doing the opposite too? And that would blow back on the professor.

When you have time and space, I would encourage you to reflect on how you handled this politically. My read is: not particularly well. Not that you should have - this isn't something we're trained explicitly for. But remember the lessons going forward.

...the lab that she was in during undergrad cannot replicate any of her data. So, I think there is a very good chance she could be doing just that. 

As for the last part, I'm not entirely sure what you mean. The only light I can find from this horrible situation is being able to grow from it. I do feel that this will make me a better scientist, though it doesn't make it any easier now. Is there any way you could explain what handling this politically means? I mean no animosity, but I do wish to come out of this a better person. This means exploring every angle and growing from my own mistakes as well.  Thanks in advance.  

[dr. t]

Having a just cause is not enough.

Your posts here focus on your obvious disgust at Sarah's manipulative and unethical behavior, but the way you chose to resolve the issue was entirely based in the hope that others would share this disgust. You didn't really consider that the people with the power to address the issues you raised might be at best disinclined to do so and at worse complicit in Sarah's behavior. As a consequence, your behavior, particularly how you talked about the problem in your community (as @St Andrews Lynx noted above) made it very easy for your professor to pass this off as two squabbling graduate students.

Politics is the fine art of getting what you want. In many cases, as it would have been here, what you want is an ethical and just outcome. But achieving such an outcome often requires a great deal of (ethically ambiguous) finesse, since what you want is at odds with what someone else (Sarah, your professor) want. If you had been more deliberate and careful in this portion of your campaign, I think you would have been able to either marginalize or remove Sarah while keeping your position.

As I said, none of us are trained for this, and few realize how important such skills are. This was an expensive lesson; don't let it go to waste.

Edited September 27, 2016 by telkanuru

[Excelsius]

This was disappointing to read. Just when you think your lab is bad, there is always a lab out there that's even worse. Some sabotage your science, others your careers and salary, yet others all of it. Most of us are not trained in politics, but interesting sources of information do exist in forms of books, like Art of War, 48 Laws of Power, or How to Win Friends and Influence People. The tricky concepts there are backed up by factual evidence throughout history. The problem is those of us really interested in science don't really care to play these games. I do think students should be taught these "skills" in school, but it makes me wonder how quickly would the cogs of science stop turning if everyone pulled this same type of BS in your typical lab.

[ssfgrad]

Thanks again everyone!  Being without my research has been extremely difficult, but I am in a much better place than I was in that lab. I will definitely need to look into training myself to be more political. I really just never expected this to happen to me.  I have a BS in psychology, which I think allowed me to see through Sarah's psychopathies. Ultimately, when she realized that I was on to her (when my lab work worked for the first time while she was out of town) she would have stopped at nothing to get me out of there.  Good riddance. 

NOW FOR SOME GOOD(ISH) NEWS! 

I have an interview with another lab at another university!  I would be doing research on my dream organism! I am very excited, but very nervous at the same time. Coming out of my masters I was confident in my abilities, but after this last experience I feel bottomed out. I am very worried that leaving this lab will be a strike on my record.  I know the new potential PI knows my old PI, but I don't know how well. I know that I need to be honest with him about my past to prevent future skeletons from rearing their ugly heads.  The question is how honest? Obviously, I can not go in there spewing old drama or throwing my ex-PI under the bus. This forum has been so helpful.  Any help with this next step would be amazing!   Thanks. 

[dr. t]

I would first ascertain the precise relationship the potential PI has with your old one. I think it's unlikely that your previous PI would say anything negative about you, as that would force the question and spread the fact that there is some disquiet in their lab, so your main goal should be presenting yourself positively. Until you get to know your prospective PI better, I would try to find some simple answer to why you left your last lab that does not involve Sarah or reflect poorly on your previous PI.

Glad to hear you're landing on your feet!