Questions, Concerns, and Advice Re: Reapplying

[Dialectica]

I wanted to create a thread dedicated to folks that have reapplied and those that are reapplying this year. In addition to being a place where we can simply commiserate, I was hoping this would serve as a place to not only give advice regarding reapplying, but also a place where we can discuss any potential issues and worries about doing so. So please, have at it.

 

I'll start with a quick question. Is it reasonable to assume that one will have to re-send materials such as the GRE and transcripts (assuming they haven't changed)? That is, is it reasonable to assume that departments to which you have previously applied will not have any such material saved? My knee-jerk reaction here is to think they will not, but I'm hoping to be disabused of this. 

[Duns Eith]

Great question. I'd love to know as well. My presumption would be that the documents are not saved, as which parts need or need not be collected from two different application packets? GRE might be different, though, as the scores often don't get sent to the Phil Dept but rather the graduate admissions office.

If someone finds the answer, I'm eager to know as well

[dgswaim]

I applied to the University of Texas both after my BA and after my MA, and they had quite a bit of my old info saved (GRE, for instance). UT is the only one that sticks out in my mind, though.

[MentalEngineer]

I went through three seasons in total and never even thought to ask schools about this! I assumed that even if departments still had any of my materials, the graduate school or university would require fresh stuff with every application. It would certainly be worth inquiring at places you're re-applying; you could save quite a bit of money.

[Dialectica]

On October 2, 2016 at 5:13 PM, dgswaim said:

I applied to the University of Texas both after my BA and after my MA, and they had quite a bit of my old info saved (GRE, for instance). UT is the only one that sticks out in my mind, though.

That's really interesting! I'm hoping this generalizes. If you don't mind my asking, how did you find out they had some of the old elements of your file? 

 

And, @MentalEngineer, I totally agree: this would be a tremendous money-saving effort given that enough schools save GRE scores and transcripts; applying would be much less of a headache as a result. 

 

If anyone else has any anecdotes like @dgswaim's, please, feel free to post them here. 

[matchamatcha]

I imagine that even if schools saved GRE/transcript information, most of them would still require that you re-send it.  Nothing was stated regarding information saved when I reapplied to a couple places after my BA and after my MA - though those were only Canadian schools.

I like this thread, though, to voice my worries.  Reapplying makes me simultaneously feel like if I don't get in, then I've totally failed at life, while also feeling like I definitely won't get in because nobody wanted me the first time.

[DesertLandscaper]

Schools almost always hold onto the GRE scores for up to five years. You should call to confirm, but I would not waste your money by resending them.

[dgswaim]

On 10/4/2016 at 7:02 PM, Dialectica said:

That's really interesting! I'm hoping this generalizes. If you don't mind my asking, how did you find out they had some of the old elements of your file? 

 

And, @MentalEngineer, I totally agree: this would be a tremendous money-saving effort given that enough schools save GRE scores and transcripts; applying would be much less of a headache as a result. 

 

If anyone else has any anecdotes like @dgswaim's, please, feel free to post them here. 

When I created my online application portfolio thing this last time around it didn't require that I submit a GRE because they already had it on file. There my have been a few other things too. I think they had all of my transcripts from undergrad, too.

[Dialectica]

I've got two questions pertinent here. 

i. Regarding those that have reapplied in the past—whether you've had success or not in reapplying—I'm curious what, if anything, you changed in your file. Did you get different letter writers? Rewrite/polish your sample from the previous year(s)? Write a completely new sample? Increase your GRE scores? I'm curious to know what you think is best to spend time on, what changed, and, given the things changed, what the results were. 

and

ii. What do those who are reapplying this round plan to change? What considerations played a role in prioritizing the things you did?

 

(and please, if you still have anecdotes relevant to the question that started this thread (re: programs keeping transcripts and the like), still feel free to keep them coming.)

[MentalEngineer]

TL;DR: make sure your writing sample is good, make sure it reflects what you actually want to work on - this may require writing from scratch, make sure you apply to schools that do what you actually do as shown by your writing sample and not just what you think you do - do not just shotgun the PGR 20 programs in what you think is your subfield or otherwise apply based on wishful thinking.

I wrote an entirely new writing sample and changed my list of schools fairly substantially, and I credit these two changes for my acceptances. I also joined these forums, which is definitely the best thing I've done for my professional development so far, as I get to network with people who got into much more highly-ranked programs than I did, put people whose work I dig into contact with each other, and hopefully help some good applicants do well in the next couple years.

My very first writing sample was a barely edited paper from a graduate seminar that I took for undergrad credit. In hindsight, it was almost more of an English paper than a philosophy paper: the argument boiled down to "some of the things Madison says about 'faction' in Federalist 10 are similar to what Aristotle says about stasis in Nichomachean Ethics, and some of the things Madison says aren't similar at all." (I still think this is really interesting, but it was not an interesting paper.) I solicited feedback from multiple faculty at my undergrad and proceeded to ignore about 95% of it. I deservedly struck out in my PhD applications; I have NO IDEA how I got into UWM with it.

My second writing sample was just the seminar paper I hated least, with a good amount of polish put on it to make it seem like I was actually interested in the problem it addressed. (I was not interested in the problem.) This paper was not my first choice, and it still showed, even after revisions. UWM has a semester-long writing workshop in the second fall semester for everyone who's applying out, and it was really helpful - probably the single most beneficial thing about doing the MA. Unfortunately for me, what I learned from it was that my original choice of writing sample was just totally incoherent (which was true) and wouldn't be of interest to many people (which was also true). There were several other people in my cohort writing on the topic that I switched to, we were applying to many similar schools, and their papers were better. They got in and I did not.

To do my last writing sample, I met with my advisor, talked about what I wanted to write about, and really started hashing out some ideas that I'd had scratching around the back of my head for years. He helped me work out what I should read and react to so that I wasn't just vomiting out my ideas without any context, but he also helped me work out my view so that there was more than just exposition going on. That allowed me to write a paper that's actually a piece of original scholarship which advances and supports a view that nobody else holds, in an area that is finally starting to see a bit of mainstream consideration.

Getting good advice on your writing sample is critical. If at all possible, get it from someone you can actually talk to in person. If that's not possible, do not be shy about contacting people elsewhere and doing it early. Like, now. You need time to get feedback and time for rewrites. No matter what, if someone's not being helpful, be ready to "dump" them and move on quickly. You need professional eyes on your work and you need them to belong to someone who understands what you're trying to write about. Also, they make you better at philosophy. So much better. Those conversations and reading suggestions alone were probably worth the three years I spent in Milwaukee.

I did a lot more research on programs. I looked less for programs that did the work I had always thought of myself as wanting to do (phil. of mind/cogsci/AI stuff), although I kept the ones that I thought could support me. Instead, I looked at programs that seemed likely to be interested in the work I was actually showing I was already capable of in my writing sample. I don't think it's a coincidence that all three of my acceptances came from schools that were new to my list from the previous year, because I was able to show concretely not just how the particular program would be good for me, but also how my work fit into what they wanted to be doing as a department. I think this is my single biggest piece of advice. Everyone will tell you to write a better sample, and they're right. But I think the best bang-for-buck change is to think carefully about where you can demonstrate a strong mutual fit between the program and the actual work that you do as opposed to the work you imagine you do.

I did not retake the GRE, and I don't think it's worth the time, effort, or money unless one of your scores is definitively bad. A better writing sample can save a borderline GRE at most programs; a stunning GRE will not help with a mediocre writing sample at most programs; a marginal improvement will have a marginal effect. On the other hand, my first set of scores was good enough for everywhere except a few really quant-heavy programs like MIT, so I'm biased. I suppose if it would make you feel better to retake it and you can afford it, you may as well.

Edited October 15, 2016 by MentalEngineer

[dgswaim]

^^^ All wonderful advice.

The choice of program stuff, especially. The first time I applied to PhD programs my packet must have looked like a joke, and at least part of the reason why was probably just that I didn't really know what I wanted to do, except in the sense that I was vaguely interested in doing stuff that was vaguely to do with philosophy of science. Could not have been very appealing.

So, I think two things really helped my application this time around. (1) I was able to give a much clearer picture and what kind of researcher I aim to be, partly on the basis of the research I'd done for my MA. I'd demonstrated an ability to "carve a niche," so to speak. (2) I did a better job of identifying people in various departments that would be likely to see my work as interesting/important. In particular, a lot of the stuff I'd been doing is very in sync with a what a lot of the "younger generation" of philosophers of biology are doing, and a bit out of step with the older generation. This ended up being reflected in the places that admitted me.

[Glasperlenspieler]

In regards to the GRE question, I applied to UChicago a few years back. When filling out my application this time around my scores showed up from last time with 'verified' in green next to them. I sent them an email to make sure I don't need to send scores again, but haven't heard back yet. Hopefully that's at least a little money I'll be saving.

On the same topic, Stanford explicitly cites on the grad admissions site, that they do not retain scores that were submitted prior to September 1st, 2015.

I emailed a couple other schools too and will report if I hear anything.

[Dialectica]

Thank you, @Glasperlenspieler for that information. I'm certainly finding it is by no means uniform what programs keep, if anything. 

 

I had another question. For the statement of purpose, does anyone think it is a good or bad idea to mention what you've been up to in the time since graduating? My initial worry is that this only highlights that one was shutout the year before (obviously I'm assuming the applicant in question is reapplying here as a result of being shut out the year prior).  Any thoughts on this?

Relatedly, I'd also like to hear what anyone thinks is worth putting in such a section; what activities outside of your program are worth noting?

[Glasperlenspieler]

Almost forgot to update! Harvard, Brown, and Chicago held onto my GRE scores. UC Riverside did not and as I said, Stanford stated on their site that they do not hold on to GRE scores for that long.

[MentalEngineer]

16 hours ago, Dialectica said:

I had another question. For the statement of purpose, does anyone think it is a good or bad idea to mention what you've been up to in the time since graduating? My initial worry is that this only highlights that one was shutout the year before (obviously I'm assuming the applicant in question is reapplying here as a result of being shut out the year prior).  Any thoughts on this?

Mention things that you were doing related to philosophy (cognate fields count too, if you work on interdisciplinary stuff). If you've been (with an MA) adjuncting, great - say what you taught and what you've learned from it. If you've been (in the right city) auditing or sitting in on grad courses, great - talk about how that's prepared you for the step up to grad level or not let your skills get slack. If you've been going to conferences or summer workshops, great - yes, it might be hard to do, but you learn a TON from them. If you've been auditing or sitting in on undergrad courses, good - talk about how that let you cover more than just doing your degree. If you've been writing, good - talk about the seeds of more polished papers that you've got planted. If you've just been reading, not great, since this is the bare minimum expected of any applicant, but it's good because it shows you've at least stayed engaged as best you can. Make sure you've been reading stuff relevant to your interests, though. If you haven't done any of this, you should probably definitely ask yourself why you want to go to grad school.

It'll be obvious from your transcript that you were shut out anyway. As long as you can show you've done something with your time, it's not a problem. I think adcomms give some side-eye to people who've been "out" for less than a year and have already stopped doing philosophy yet claim to want back in. (Note: this applies to people reapplying the cycle after a shutout. If you've been out of academia longer, you don't need to prove you've been preparing for philosophy grad school the whole time!)

[Duns Eith]

Purdue keeps GRE scores for a while.

Ohio State does not.

[Kantattheairport]

I was going to start a new thread for reapplications, but then I saw that this already exists, so bumping. I know that the corpse of this year's cycle is still twitching in its coffin, but early birds and all that!

Is anyone else already trying to think and strategize what to do, and how to go about reapplying? Do you think you'll only want to polish up your writing sample, or write a new one entirely? Any ideas on what else you might do in the interim?

I'll want to speak to my recommenders before deciding, but leaning generally towards writing a new sample...

[eigenname]

1 hour ago, Kantattheairport said:

I was going to start a new thread for reapplications, but then I saw that this already exists, so bumping. I know that the corpse of this year's cycle is still twitching in its coffin, but early birds and all that!

Is anyone else already trying to think and strategize what to do, and how to go about reapplying? Do you think you'll only want to polish up your writing sample, or write a new one entirely? Any ideas on what else you might do in the interim?

I'll want to speak to my recommenders before deciding, but leaning generally towards writing a new sample...

Last cycle, when I got shut out, I got the feeling that my writing sample was widely unpopular (despite doing really well as a dissertation thesis) - I defended an old, unpopular view in philosophy of science that one philosopher has called 'widely proven false since the 60's'. So I took another one of my essays about a more recent discussion about logical choice in philosophy of logic and extended it instead for this cycle. Otherwise, I didn't really change anything (e.g. grades, letters, personal statements) in my application.

For what it's worth, I think it's worthwhile writing something that's not conventionally deemed a dead topic. I imagine a writing sample on an extremely lively topic, of broad appeal to everyone, would be even more profitable. A 'mainstream' topic (Kant, Hume, epistemology, ethics or something) would probably be helpful for getting into more schools, and would be good if you haven't yet decided on your main interest areas; my topic was a bit more specialized, but I did get into the top PGR schools for my AOIs this cycle (phil physics, phil logic). 

Hope this helps, and all the best next year!

Edited April 16, 2018 by eigenname

[Neither Here Nor There]

I think there isn't' a "one size fits all" as far as what you need to do to improve your placements the next year. It would depend on too much, whether you are trying for a top 20 school, etc.

But I had terrible GREs and got 5 offers. Terrible as in I almost could have guessed every problem on the math section and had a higher score. My verbal was in the 150s. My AW was the only one good (5.5). I applied to continental programs and my GRE made no difference whatsoever. I got into 50% that I had applied.

The letter writers are hard to say. If you are still in graduate school, and you had new and better work for which they could comment (for example a master's thesis), by all means use new letter writers or ask them to update.

The writing sample is of course most important. I did a writing sample that drew from all my areas of interest; it was very hard to pull off, but it worked well for me. To me, my application was proof that at least in continental philosophy, it all comes down to letters and writing sample. My degrees were from no-name schools, so it wasn't my degrees that carried me. 

EDIT: and yea, I think sometimes super good writing samples are overlooked because an idea is unpopular. That is unfortunate. On the other hand, maybe one should not apply to schools that don't have faculty really doing their kind of thing. 

Edited April 16, 2018 by Neither Here Nor There

[TorreAttack]

I am also thinking about reapplying. My question is when people apply after they get their masters, do they typically apply year 2, so they can go somewhere else year 3, or do they apply year 3 so they already have their masters under their belt?

[Neither Here Nor There]

8 minutes ago, TorreAttack said:

I am also thinking about reapplying. My question is when people apply after they get their masters, do they typically apply year 2, so they can go somewhere else year 3, or do they apply year 3 so they already have their masters under their belt?

Most people I know did year 2. I did year 3. That made a big difference to my application too, since it gave me time to do a good writing sample. But if one has a good writing sample, and there are not other reasons said person wants to have a gap year, by all means apply in year 2.