Just Getting Started...

[khigh]

8 minutes ago, psstein said:

You should be excited for graduate school. It's lovely to be paid (even minimally) for working in a field you like. On the other hand, you need to be aware of the realities of the job market and post-PhD life.

You may love the field you're interested in, but from what you've said, it doesn't look like a vibrant field in the US. Finding a job will, as a result, be more difficult.

I’m aware of the realities of the job market. I’ve been supporting two households for over a year because the history PhD can’t pay rent in Berlin. I will continue to lend support because he is doing research and is happy. He’s coming back to the states soon, so that will relieve some of the burden, but we both know we will always be more poor than we are today. 

[Calgacus]

45 minutes ago, hats said:

This is something like my third handle on this forum, because the first couple—when I was an applicant—involved some embarrassing posts. I think one of my more embarrassing threads from when I applied, years ago, involved me getting jumped all over by a couple people, possibly including @telkanuru.

Then you come here. You post. Suddenly, a firehose of new information explodes in your direction, from too many sources to possibly handle right now! So many people are talking, and nobody is defending you! Everybody shares a very different consensus than you had been getting from the comforting graybeard who says, "there's always good jobs for good people"! So you get defensive and push back on the advice, on the one hand, and you also go around giving too much advice, because after the ego drubbing you just received, you want to feel like the authority and like you know something. Maybe I'm projecting onto you, and that's not what you're doing, but I know I have done literally exactly that.

None of us want to dampen your enthusiasm. But this is a moment when the advice you give is going to be structurally limited by your position: your advice on "obviously" German first is one example. As telkanuru says, this may be annoying for Germanists, but American Europeanists studying Italy or Portugal probably just aren't that good at German. There are fields where German comes first, but all of Europe, in all time periods, is painting with too broad a brush. I advise you to sit with the advice you've gotten for a while and recognize that you just won't be able to give informed advice about some of these choices until after you've started seeing their consequences in practice, i.e., after you get to graduate school. You're obviously very capable, but some of your priors are wrong, in the way that many of our priors, including mine, were wrong when we started applying to graduate school. I get that it feels like you're one person being ganged up on—that's what led to my defensive flame-outs in my first couple tries on this forum—because a lot of people are correcting a lot of things you're saying. That's the result of coming to a forum where there are a lot of experienced graduate students who want to help you. Maybe try imagining that you're having each of these conversations one on one. I get that it's too much to take in at once, but that doesn't mean anyone is being snarky, or mean, or dismissive. We want you to succeed.

This is an incredibly well-said and mature reflection on a trend that @Assotto is absolutely right about. New applicants seem to get increasingly defensive and head-strong each year, often lashing out at advice from experienced contributors that is generally frank and perhaps not what they want to hear. @hats I really appreciate your ability to articulate the sentiments behind both sides, and would especially emphasize your point that the experienced grad students are truly here to help, completely voluntarily. Unfortunately, there is so much misinformation about what grad school is/has become/should be, that a substantial component of experienced "help" means pushing eager young applicants to see some of the harsh realities of grad school that they're often unaware of (for various reasons).

To those applying each cycle that feel the need to be defensive: nobody is questioning your merits or passion. We're often just trying to warn you that those two things, which carried you through undergrad (and possibly an MA), simply don't mean the same thing in graduate school. They are not always enough to get you that grant you might deserve, and they are certainly not enough to land you a TT job. Nobody is trying to upset or demoralize you, we are simply trying to tell you the things that MIGHT put you in a better position to snag those grants, postdocs, jobs, etc. It's a nice idea to think that wherever you go for your PhD, if you work hard enough you can end up with the same options as someone graduating from Princeton. But that's just simply untrue. It matters what school you go to, what kind of funding package you get. That's not because everyone is brainwashed by the Princeton name and stuck in their academic elitist bubbles, but because Princeton can provide extra resources that will substantially increase your opportunity to succeed, which a #40-ranked school simply can't. It's not necessarily fair, but it is a structural problem that many incoming students just don't realize because they are not in it. Before getting defensive, try to remember that experienced posters are trying to help. Information that goes against your assumptions, while perhaps disorienting, is often the most beneficial. We're not here to be your proud parents or friends who no little about the field, or even your TA who told you you were a great student. Graduate school is a profession, and most of the experienced commenters here treat it that way. It can be tough to transition into that mentality, but as @hats says, it will need to happen sooner or later.

@khigh, I wouldn't characterize this as being "ganged up on," and @telkanuru even prefaced his comment by saying there was not really a delicate way to say that the information you provided was inaccurate. It's not a personal attack, he simply does not want other prospective students to come on here and think they will be expected to know German if they want to study American history. Those that choose to come back and offer advice every year are generally trying to either repay a service that this forum provided to us as applicants, or else are trying to give prospective students information that we wish we had known when we applied. Nobody is forcing you to heed the advice provided by experienced grad students, and yet we try to provide it anyway, just in case a small handful of people find it useful. New applicants should remember this before getting defensive about these things. I don't think @telkanuru loses sleep over new applicants calling him snarky or elitist. The only person that sort of dismissive reaction hurts is the applicant. (And I'm speaking broadly here, not singling you out, as he is often the target of prospective students' frustration.)

Anyway, that's my two cents.

[Calgacus]

@historynerd97 It would be helpful to tell us a bit about why you think you want to go to graduate school?

At this point in your undergraduate career, (1) focus on trying to get a couple of research projects under your belt, either for classes or externally. (2) Talk to as many faculty as you can about your interests in graduate school and think critically about what sort of advice they give you. (3) As others have pointed out, undergrad is an ideal time to start working on languages if you'll need them-- you haven't told us what your area of interest is so we can't give you specifics on that yet.

[dr. t]

23 minutes ago, Calgacus said:

I don't think @telkanuru loses sleep over new applicants calling him snarky or elitist.

I do a bit, actually, because it means I need to work on my communications skills. I grew up as an internet troll, you see, and as @hats has matured over time, and I like to think that I have, too. So while I understand that unpalatable advice often triggers aggressive rejections, I don't think that excuses me from trying to figure out better ways of giving that advice.

To address some other points, I don't think it's a bad thing to have hesitations when it comes to grad school, and I think that untempered enthusiasm only sets you up for failure. I think that with respect to grad school, if you receive advice which is not in some way, major or minor, discouraging, it is not actually good advice. Above all else, I don't think plotting your life and centering all your meaning around a singular goal, be it a PhD or anything else,  is in any way healthy. As Freamon said to McNulty, the job will not save you. 

Edited December 20, 2017 by telkanuru

[khigh]

5 minutes ago, telkanuru said:

I do a bit, actually, because it means I need to work on my communications skills. I grew up as an internet troll, you see, and as @hats has matured over time, and I like to think that I have, too. So while I understand that unpalatable advice often triggers aggressive rejections, I don't think that excuses me from trying to figure out better ways of giving that advice.

To address some other points, I don't think it's a bad thing to have hesitations when it comes to grad school, and I think that untempered enthusiasm only sets you up for failure. I think that with respect to grad school, if you receive advice which is not in some way, major or minor, discouraging, it is not actually good advice. Above all else, I don't think plotting your life and centering all your meaning around a singular goal, be it a PhD or anything else,  is in any way healthy. As Freamon said to McNulty, the job will not save you. 

I want to apologize for the things I said. I’m sure you mean well, but it’s not easy hearing that what you’ve worked for over the past 13 years is nothing. You don’t know me from Eve, so you wouldn’t know where the actual excitement comes from. 

[dr. t]

19 minutes ago, khigh said:

I want to apologize for the things I said. I’m sure you mean well, but it’s not easy hearing that what you’ve worked for over the past 13 years is nothing. You don’t know me from Eve, so you wouldn’t know where the actual excitement comes from. 

Accepted! And for my part, I really am sorry for causing offense - I just don't know how to communicate what needs to be said here otherwise. Suggestions are certainly welcome on that front! And, as I stare down yet another Christmas with my financially-obsessed in-laws, let me tell you that it is apparently the season for being told your PhD is nothing. 

I didn't really want to say that what you've worked for is nothing. Instead, I'd tell you about my old MA adviser (he of the devastating writing feedback), who always says: "Why do we go to grad school? To get a job!" This is how I understand that: the PhD isn't - or shouldn't be - your goal. It's not what you're working for. It's just a signpost to others that you've done a certain thing, and that you're prepared to keep doing similar things in the future. The actual goal is to spend your life in a way you consider to be productive and worthwhile. A PhD may (or may not) be a step on that path, but always remember that your goal is a process, a way of living, and not a point.

[Calgacus]

Great points, @telkanuru. It can be really difficult figuring out how to deliver information that you know is probably unwelcome but you feel is important to share, especially in these online forums, where neither side gets the benefit of body language, voice inflections, etc. 

And as I mentioned in my response to OP above, I think the question of "why do I want to go to graduate school" is one that is honestly not asked enough. I don't say this to any one individual to force them to prove themselves one way or another, I just think it's an important question to ask ourselves at all stages of this process-- application, decision/acceptance, and especially once in it.

[TMP]

4 hours ago, khigh said:

This is good. No, really, thank you. I’m upset. Of course I’m upset and defensive. I WAS excited for graduate school. Now, I’m not sure. I’ve been working for this for 13 years. I will go. I will do what I need. I will succeed. 

 And then to be overwhelmed and ganged up on is not a good feeling at all. Most people have given good advice and I have been listening to everyone, but some have also been very discouraging. 

What you observed here is completely normal! PhD does that to you.  There will always be characters who will share your excitement for learning and the process (usually professors).  There will always be people who will say things that will make you doubt yourself (both professors and other graduate students). Discouragement tend to come from the cynics, realists, and insecure (either professors or graduate students, often the latter).

I am in my 6th year of the PhD and have seen a lot and listened to several students behind me talk about their triumphs and struggles and I see patterns.  As much as i'd like to forget my first years, I do certainly remember the ups and downs before I figured out how to manage that emotional roller coaster ride.

And I'm a Germanist so your comment about Americanists needing German is quite puzzling.  French was the lingua franca of Western diplomacy until after WWI.  German would be more useful in context of the history of American capitalism.  Try to read up a few history department handbooks which do spell out language requirements for different fields  

@historynerd97  A lot of the advice above is geared towards the PhD, which is a research degree.  The MA is primarily an opportunity to study history at the graduate level without the long-term commitment of producing a dissertation (and perhaps the awful doctoral exams that occur in students' third year).  Might you be able to respond to our queries so that we can have some direction?

[khigh]

1 hour ago, TMP said:

What you observed here is completely normal! PhD does that to you.  There will always be characters who will share your excitement for learning and the process (usually professors).  There will always be people who will say things that will make you doubt yourself (both professors and other graduate students). Discouragement tend to come from the cynics, realists, and insecure (either professors or graduate students, often the latter).

I am in my 6th year of the PhD and have seen a lot and listened to several students behind me talk about their triumphs and struggles and I see patterns.  As much as i'd like to forget my first years, I do certainly remember the ups and downs before I figured out how to manage that emotional roller coaster ride.

And I'm a Germanist so your comment about Americanists needing German is quite puzzling.  French was the lingua franca of Western diplomacy until after WWI.  German would be more useful in context of the history of American capitalism.  Try to read up a few history department handbooks which do spell out language requirements for different fields  

@historynerd97  A lot of the advice above is geared towards the PhD, which is a research degree.  The MA is primarily an opportunity to study history at the graduate level without the long-term commitment of producing a dissertation (and perhaps the awful doctoral exams that occur in students' third year).  Might you be able to respond to our queries so that we can have some direction?

I wonder if languages are regional. My undergrad funneled to University of Oklahoma, Texas A&M, and UT-Austin. At least OU focuses on the American West, which is a heavy German population. Maybe I’m wrong. 

As far as the ups and downs, luckily my boyfriend has already gone through it, so there is a support system in place. He should keep me on the right side of sane, dontcha know? My undergrad advisor also said I can always call him for support. He saw me cry in his office enough times trying to “be the best” if that makes sense. By my senior year, I was president of six clubs, President of the student government association, taking 18 hours a semester, working at the Museum, serving on 15 University committees, traveling back and forth to Europe (4 times in my last year for research and spending time with the boyfriend), learning five languages, and doing higher education advocacy at the state capitol. That’s why a gap year was needed- I burned out. Now I’m lost without learning and reading and classes and it freaks me out to know this is my last chance. I got defensive and angry because it takes everything to not spend every minute of every day wondering if I’m good enough to get in. 

Thankfully, we got the issue solved. My boyfriend and I also had a 90s country karaoke Skype date, which was what was needed. 

[ltr317]

10 hours ago, telkanuru said:

Two immediate problems:

1. Harvard doesn't offer an MA in history.
2. UWash and UVA are not "top tier universities", even relatively.

I would also add that Columbia's separate MA in history is very limited in scope and is a terminal degree.  It's basically a cash cow for the university.  Admitted applicants to the PhD program can earn an MA en route to the doctorate. 

[ltr317]

23 minutes ago, khigh said:

I wonder if languages are regional. My undergrad funneled to University of Oklahoma, Texas A&M, and UT-Austin. At least OU focuses on the American West, which is a heavy German population. Maybe I’m wrong. 

As far as the ups and downs, luckily my boyfriend has already gone through it, so there is a support system in place. He should keep me on the right side of sane, dontcha know? My undergrad advisor also said I can always call him for support. He saw me cry in his office enough times trying to “be the best” if that makes sense. By my senior year, I was president of six clubs, President of the student government association, taking 18 hours a semester, working at the Museum, serving on 15 University committees, traveling back and forth to Europe (4 times in my last year for research and spending time with the boyfriend), learning five languages, and doing higher education advocacy at the state capitol. That’s why a gap year was needed- I burned out. Now I’m lost without learning and reading and classes and it freaks me out to know this is my last chance. I got defensive and angry because it takes everything to not spend every minute of every day wondering if I’m good enough to get in. 

Thankfully, we got the issue solved. My boyfriend and I also had a 90s country karaoke Skype date, which was what was needed. 

As a 19th century Americanist, it is misleading to suggest that German is necessary when pursuing a PhD in American History.  For students in early American history, it is much more important to learn either French or Spanish, depending if their focus is the American Revolution, New France, New Spain, or the nexus between the U.S. and  French or Spanish Caribbean Islands.  There weren't many Germans or anyone else in the American West or Midwest until the 19th century westward expansion, but they were only one of many ethnic groups migrating in search of work and farming.  Even the growing Northern and Atlantic cities which had a heavy concentration of Germans only had one or at most two German newspapers during this period.  Of course a few students who are interested in regional studies, or in U.S./German diplomacy, or some other connection may need to learn German, but they are in the minority compared to the many whose second language has to be French or Spanish based on their interest. 

[khigh]

10 minutes ago, ltr317 said:

As a 19th century Americanist, it is misleading to suggest that German is necessary when pursuing a PhD in American History.  For students in early American history, it is much more important to learn either French or Spanish, depending if their focus is the American Revolution, New France, New Spain, or the nexus between the U.S. and  French or Spanish Caribbean Islands.  There weren't many Germans or anyone else in the American West or Midwest until the 19th century westward expansion, but they were only one of many ethnic groups migrating in search of work and farming.  Even the growing Northern and Atlantic cities which had a heavy concentration of Germans only had one or at most two German newspapers during this period.  Of course a few students who are interested in regional studies, or in U.S./German diplomacy, or some other connection may need to learn German, but they are in the minority compared to the many whose second language has to be French or Spanish based on their interest. 

Good to know. I took the minimum required hours of American (Jacksonian Era, 1917-1945, Women in Politics, and Military history). German was helpful for Jacksonian, but I did my paper on how German migration after the 1848 revolution helped the US transition out of the Jacksonian era. Used it for 1917-1945 to write about anarchism and Marxism in the early 1920s. I honestly hated and still dislike American history and always tried to find a European connection. 

The only paper I didn’t do that with was over the influence of the American West on baseball rules from 1890-1908, but that’s an obsession for another day. 

[ltr317]

5 hours ago, telkanuru said:

I do a bit, actually, because it means I need to work on my communications skills. I grew up as an internet troll, you see, and as @hats has matured over time, and I like to think that I have, too. So while I understand that unpalatable advice often triggers aggressive rejections, I don't think that excuses me from trying to figure out better ways of giving that advice.

To address some other points, I don't think it's a bad thing to have hesitations when it comes to grad school, and I think that untempered enthusiasm only sets you up for failure. I think that with respect to grad school, if you receive advice which is not in some way, major or minor, discouraging, it is not actually good advice. Above all else, I don't think plotting your life and centering all your meaning around a singular goal, be it a PhD or anything else,  is in any way healthy. As Freamon said to McNulty, the job will not save you. 

I'm afraid I have nothing worthwhile to add for the OP, but I think the advice already given is sound and truthful. 

I do want to add my two cents to this running dialogue.  No one is perfect.  To be human means we have hubris, but we can all strive to be better human beings everyday.  I've only been on this forum for about six months, but I've gain a lot from almost everyone who have responded to my inquiries.  I hope some have gained insight from my long experiential knowledge in answering their questions.  This place really is volunteer driven and without the longtime members this forum would not last.  In just the short time as a member, I read through a lot of threads, and noticed that most new members spend a short time here, ask a bunch of questions, get what they want and leave.  They just pick a member's brain and take without giving anything in return.   Some don't even say thanks.  I don't expect everyone to stay on this forum indefinitely or even give back in some way.  Just show some respect.  Maybe even come back in a year or two to provide fresh applicants during the cycle with some sage advice, and that doesn't mean they have to be regulars.  Not enough people do it even occasionally. 

When I first registered, I came with no expectations and an open mind.  I was new to the study of history and really did not know what to expect.  I was glad to receive advice, whether or not I eventually agreed or not agreed with it.  Some were pointed and direct, but I knew that the opinions were based on experience and was possible.   I may disagree but I didn't get angry from someone's opinion.  The only time I got angry was when someone attacked my character because of my opinion.   I caution anyone not to do that because it oversteps the boundary of decency.  

What everyone says about the job market is real.  It doesn't pertain to me because I already had a career, and am applying to PhD programs because I need the credential to write professionally.  For anyone looking at it as a career move, then I echo telkanuru to think long and hard why you want the PhD. 

 

 

[ltr317]

32 minutes ago, khigh said:

Good to know. I took the minimum required hours of American (Jacksonian Era, 1917-1945, Women in Politics, and Military history). German was helpful for Jacksonian, but I did my paper on how German migration after the 1848 revolution helped the US transition out of the Jacksonian era. Used it for 1917-1945 to write about anarchism and Marxism in the early 1920s. I honestly hated and still dislike American history and always tried to find a European connection. 

The only paper I didn’t do that with was over the influence of the American West on baseball rules from 1890-1908, but that’s an obsession for another day. 

Then you're one of the few.  Lol.

[psstein]

1 hour ago, ltr317 said:

I would also add that Columbia's separate MA in history is very limited in scope and is a terminal degree.  It's basically a cash cow for the university.  Admitted applicants to the PhD program can earn an MA en route to the doctorate. 

This is the case with almost every MA program, save one or two.

59 minutes ago, khigh said:

The only paper I didn’t do that with was over the influence of the American West on baseball rules from 1890-1908, but that’s an obsession for another day. 

For some odd reason, this seems interesting to me. Would you be so kind as to send me the paper?

[khigh]

19 minutes ago, psstein said:

This is the case with almost every MA program, save one or two.

For some odd reason, this seems interesting to me. Would you be so kind as to send me the paper?

Sent you the link. I really enjoyed reading about government issues baseball equipment for soldiers in the West- baseball kept them out of whorehouses and saloons.