Would you turn down an Ivy?

[powercube]

Hi! I'm a long time lurker and I have a question that won't go away.

I have a few admits in the social sciences and I'm waiting on a couple more. I feel intimidated at the prospect of going to Ivy league university but I am mostly worried that it will be a competitive and challenging environment (in the emotional and psychological sense). The other schools are strong fits for my intended area of research and they seem to be supportive environments where I could thrive, instead of just survive. I am aware that coming out with an Ivy league PhD would open a lot of doors. And that a PhD will be emotionally and intellectually challenging no matter where I go. But I wonder: would you turn down an Ivy league university to go to another that is less prestigious because you felt more at ease with the mentorship style and student-student/student-advisor relationships?

Sorry, I'm being deliberately vague with the universities and area of study. I'm shy. But let's say it's... Princeton, UI-UC and Temple, all with adequate funding packages.

Edited February 1, 2018 by powercube
to add funding package detail

[khigh]

Other people may have a different take, but honestly, I would for the reasons you mentioned. You could go to an Ivy and if it isn't a great fit and affects your mental health...well, if you drop out because of it, you don't have a PhD at all. In that case, it would be so much better to have a PhD from a non-ivy than no PhD at all.

[powercube]

58 minutes ago, khigh said:

Other people may have a different take, but honestly, I would for the reasons you mentioned. You could go to an Ivy and if it isn't a great fit and affects your mental health...well, if you drop out because of it, you don't have a PhD at all. In that case, it would be so much better to have a PhD from a non-ivy than no PhD at all.

It is a great fit for my research as I listed four POIs that could address different aspects of my proposed project. I think that is a good point though. Thank you for commenting.

[Excelsior!]

I am not in the social sciences, but if you want my opinion, I would go for the best university. Why would you just "survive" in an Ivy? You were chosen by the committee, so they think that you can handle it. I believe that you should choose your best fit and you will be just fine anywehere!

[powercube]

14 minutes ago, Excelsior! said:

Why would you just "survive" in an Ivy?

This is conjecture, because I have not attended an ivy, but from my research: heavy work load, competitiveness, professors not attending to graduate student success because of their own heavy demands, things of that nature. I worry that I would just get by in that environment whereas I could flourish in a university where sharing ideas and collaboration is encouraged.

24 minutes ago, Excelsior! said:

I believe that you should choose your best fit and you will be just fine anywehere!

Thank you!

[Zimmy64]

Yes, I would. Coming from philosophy the ivies aren't actually as strong as some other schools in the type of political philosophy I'm interested in. It was for this reason I didn't apply to Harvard and Yale (don't get me wrong I'm not saying I think I could have got in if I did apply). I briefly considered Columbia and Princeton but decided against applying there as well. The only ivy I did apply to was Brown and it's actually roughly tied for my third choice. I would choose the University of Arizona over Brown in a heartbeat. I would also probably choose UVA over it as well. It would be a tough choice but I might even take Georgetown over Brown as well. 

[Bayesian1701]

8 hours ago, khigh said:

Other people may have a different take, but honestly, I would for the reasons you mentioned. You could go to an Ivy and if it isn't a great fit and affects your mental health...well, if you drop out because of it, you don't have a PhD at all. In that case, it would be so much better to have a PhD from a non-ivy than no PhD at all.

I agree.  One of the factors I am considering in my decisions is do I think I will complete or will I possibly not be able to handle it.  I would rather go to a program that may not be the best ranked but is the best for me.  As long as they have decent academic job placements, good funding, and are a good research fit I could care less if they are #1 or #75 (there aren’t a lot of stats programs).  If I get in to it I might choose a program that I love but isn’t the best ranked program.  

[kristine22]

17 minutes ago, Bayesian1701 said:

I agree.  One of the factors I am considering in my decisions is do I think I will complete or will I possibly not be able to handle it.  I would rather go to a program that may not be the best ranked but is the best for me.  As long as they have decent academic job placements, good funding, and are a good research fit I could care less if they are #1 or #75 (there aren’t a lot of stats programs).  If I get in to it I might choose a program that I love but isn’t the best ranked program.  

Also agree with this. I'm starting to realize that your favourite research and advisor are so important to grad school. I know people that go to prestigious schools that hate it there because they don't like their work. They tolerate it, but they aren't passionate about it- this is something you are going to be working on for years. Not just for a semester. You need to be able to handle it and even enjoy it for a long time. 

[GreenEyedTrombonist]

I made a point not to rank my schools until after receiving acceptances and getting the chance to visit each acceptance. Where you live and the culture of your department are huge for your quality of life and should not be overlooked. I don't want to be in a department that snips at each other and are more focused on competition. I want a collaborative and encouraging environment that still pushes me to excel, but not at the expense of others. I would definitely turn down an Ivy if what I saw at my visit didn't work with my personality.

[Fiain]

My top choice is so, because I love the atmosphere in the labs.

 

I didnt apply to most Ivys because they werent good schools for me. Prestige doesnt matter if no reputable labs work in what I want to do.. And I'd rather go to a place I'll enjoy more.

[Shnoztastic]

Another consideration is the environment you wish to work in. *A Prof of my told me to consider this when applying so I've not experienced this* Graduate with PhDs at private and Ivy universities typically stay in private institutions rather than working in public universities. It sounds like you'd be more comfortable NOT at an Ivy so you should do what feels better.

Someone else can probably speak to this or correct me on it.

[TakeruK]

21 hours ago, powercube said:

Hi! I'm a long time lurker and I have a question that won't go away.

I have a few admits in the social sciences and I'm waiting on a couple more. I feel intimidated at the prospect of going to Ivy league university but I am mostly worried that it will be a competitive and challenging environment (in the emotional and psychological sense). The other schools are strong fits for my intended area of research and they seem to be supportive environments where I could thrive, instead of just survive. I am aware that coming out with an Ivy league PhD would open a lot of doors. And that a PhD will be emotionally and intellectually challenging no matter where I go. But I wonder: would you turn down an Ivy league university to go to another that is less prestigious because you felt more at ease with the mentorship style and student-student/student-advisor relationships?

Sorry, I'm being deliberately vague with the universities and area of study. I'm shy. But let's say it's... Princeton, UI-UC and Temple, all with adequate funding packages.

I felt the same way as you when looking at my options for PhDs. I urge you to actually visit the school and get a feel for its culture and environment before making a decision. The school in my case isn't an "Ivy" but in my field, the Ivy League aren't necessarily the best. It is the #1 school in my area of science and it's a private school similar to the Ivy league schools.

I was very anxious about the visit and the first event was breakfast where everyone introduced themselves. Everyone went to Ivy or other top tier private schools. I thought I had made a mistake. But actually spending time with people in the department over the two day visit, I learned that every worry and concern I had about this school was wrong. The department was like one giant family! I loved my 5 years there as a grad student and I am very happy that I visited and got to know the program before making a decision. I strongly believe that the resources available to me at this school helped me get to where I am today. I don't think the students at top tier schools are that much different than other schools but they just have so many more tools to succeed. I can discuss it further in private messages if you want.

But my main message is to not get "prestige shy" and doubt your own abilities. Don't rely on stereotypes of these schools and especially not stories from other people who attended the school in different departments or different years. Schools vary a lot internally within departments and they change over time. Definitely get yourself out for an in-person visit if possible and decide for yourself. 

[powercube]

Thank you @TakeruK, that was very helpful. Perhaps prestige shy is apt. I am hoping to be able to visit but I am an international student. Even with expenses covered it may not be enough.

I appreciate everyone else's comments too. It does make me feel less pressured about the decision when other people are echoing the sentiment that prestige is not the be-all end-all of choosing a PhD program. I only applied to places I would absolutely say yes to and I feel honored and lucky to have options.

[toad1]

On 2/1/2018 at 1:53 PM, powercube said:

Hi! I'm a long time lurker and I have a question that won't go away.

I have a few admits in the social sciences and I'm waiting on a couple more. I feel intimidated at the prospect of going to Ivy league university but I am mostly worried that it will be a competitive and challenging environment (in the emotional and psychological sense). The other schools are strong fits for my intended area of research and they seem to be supportive environments where I could thrive, instead of just survive. I am aware that coming out with an Ivy league PhD would open a lot of doors. And that a PhD will be emotionally and intellectually challenging no matter where I go. But I wonder: would you turn down an Ivy league university to go to another that is less prestigious because you felt more at ease with the mentorship style and student-student/student-advisor relationships?

Sorry, I'm being deliberately vague with the universities and area of study. I'm shy. But let's say it's... Princeton, UI-UC and Temple, all with adequate funding packages.

Hey there... just thought I could add my two cents to the many great answers above.

Assuming your hypothetical schools where ivy = much higher rank (because this isn't ALWAYS the case), it comes down to a simple question: would you regret it? 

For me, the answer is absolutely yes... I'd end up regretting it. In your scenario, if I went to UI-UC or Temple over Princeton, or some similar situation, I'd forever think to myself "what if".. and wonder if I wrongfully doubted my abilities and gave up the opportunity of a lifetime. I'd always wonder if I had it in me, and I'd never have another chance to really find out. If you think that you could end up regretting it, I say f***ing go for it. Someone admitted you to the program because they BELIEVE you can do it, so maybe you should as well.

Congrats on your admits and best of luck!

[powercube]

2 hours ago, toad1 said:

Hey there... just thought I could add my two cents to the many great answers above.

Assuming your hypothetical schools where ivy = much higher rank (because this isn't ALWAYS the case), it comes down to a simple question: would you regret it? 

For me, the answer is absolutely yes... I'd end up regretting it. In your scenario, if I went to UI-UC or Temple over Princeton, or some similar situation, I'd forever think to myself "what if".. and wonder if I wrongfully doubted my abilities and gave up the opportunity of a lifetime. I'd always wonder if I had it in me, and I'd never have another chance to really find out. If you think that you could end up regretting it, I say f***ing go for it. Someone admitted you to the program because they BELIEVE you can do it, so maybe you should as well.

Congrats on your admits and best of luck!

Thank you for your perspective. I think you make a good point. I suppose I would not want to be that person saying "I got into 'Princeton'" for the rest of my life! I would still like to visit and get a feel of whether it is the right place for me. For a PhD I think it is important, probably more than for undergrad, to feel comfortable sharing ideas and living in a place before committing.

[juilletmercredi]

Yes, yes, one hundred times yes.

I got my PhD from an Ivy. Departments are going to vary a lot across the same university, so I wouldn't necessarily assume that the department is less nurturing or supportive just because it's at an Ivy. I did my PhD across two departments. One was quite supportive and relatively normal-ish, whereas the other one was less supportive. The overall university vibe, though, was pretty normal. The undergrads were the ones who were competitive and stressy, but the grad students were generally pretty laid-back: definitely about their business and their work, but in a way that was more like "normal more-demanding-than-average job" and less "pressure cooker." We were in a social psychology consortium with Yale and Princeton and I got a similar vibe about their students (Princeton seemed a little more stressy; Yale seemed about on par with us; but this was only outside observation a few times a year, so I'm no expert.)

However, I will say that support and good mentorship are absolutely KEY to both your chances of completing the program and your ability to get good jobs afterwards. Sometimes, the attitude at my university tended to be "Well, of course you'll get a job - you go to Columbia" instead of actually taking the time to develop professional skills and helping students network, as if we were supposed to learn that stuff simply by osmosis. Again, departments varied (one of my departments was much better about trying to prepare people for actual jobs than the other), so I would give you this advice for any prestigious program regardless of whether or not it's an Ivy. It's also just easier to deal with all that being a doctoral student brings if you have support and understanding from your mentors and the department around you.

Also...depending on your field the Ivy League may not be as impressive as you'd think. I'm a psychologist and while Ivy programs are generally pretty good, some of our best-reputed programs are actually at large public universities like UCLA, Michigan, Berkeley, Minnesota, Wisconsin and UIUC. I would turn down an Ivy for some of those places. (In my field, UIUC is ranked higher than Princeton.)

I don't think you'd necessarily regret it forever. There's no real way to know, honestly. I think if you end up somewhere you're happy you won't wonder. And if you end up somewhere you're unhappy you might, but I think that would happen regardless of whether or not you chose an Ivy. But I also believe that because I don't think that Ivy League educations (grad or undergrad) are necessarily the golden ticket for a perfect life in most fields as some people tend to think. I think it does open doors, particularly in non-academic careers, where people may not be aware of departmental/field rankings but are more familiar with overall university quality. But there are lots of other ways to open doors.

I mean, don't let imposter syndrome stop you. You are good enough to do excellently at an Ivy. But if you believe the environment is not a good fit for you, don't let a brand-name sticker make you choose a bad fit.

[hats]

As others have mentioned, "Ivy" is a poor proxy for "stress-y and pressure cooker." Go visit all the departments! I think "too stress-y" is a good reason to turn down a good school, if you have more relaxed options that still graduate most of their students into the kinds of jobs you would like to do. I have been associated with both Ivy/near-Ivy and big state schools (albeit sometimes as an employee or undergraduate)...and the environment I found by far the most negative was at a big state school. At the problem place, I didn't like how only some people got all-fellowships packages, while others had to teach a tremendous amount for their funding. It added this really unpleasant competition gradient; even if all the fellowships were external, the differential results produced nasty results for camaraderie. When you feel yourself saying, "Wow, I miss that stressful New England University that has a (not unfair) reputation for having mean students and faculty, because people were so much nicer there," something is wrong. Don't underestimate the ability of departments to build their own cultures, which may be way better or way worse than the result you would get if you averaged the climate of every department at that university.

Of course, know your field. The two schools you listed as pseudonyms for your non-Ivy choices don't fill me with confidence, especially as compared to Princeton, rather than a "lower" Ivy...I've never heard of a graduate field in which Temple is really the best. That said, I don't know the comparative rankings of any sciences, or most of the humanities or social sciences, either, so I hope that's not too much of a dig against the school. (If your example was, say, Cornell vs. UCSD, I would be much more enthusiastic because I can name academic fields in which they are exactly equivalent.) Try not to pick a school that doesn't graduate its students into good jobs—academic or not—over one that does, but the one that is best for your graduate field of study may very well not be the one with the lowest undergraduate acceptance rate.

That said, I have turned down Ivy—in part because that department was so weird, demographically ($$$ people!)—so just like, go on your visits, try not to pre-judge, and see what you can figure out once you have more evidence about how much you like each place.

[powercube]

On 2/5/2018 at 12:12 AM, juilletmercredi said:

I mean, don't let imposter syndrome stop you. You are good enough to do excellently at an Ivy. But if you believe the environment is not a good fit for you, don't let a brand-name sticker make you choose a bad fit.

Thank you @juilletmercredi, I have really taken your comments to heart. And everyone else's. I will be visiting soon and I am hoping that it will give me enough of an insight, or at least an gut feeling about whether or not I would be happy at the programs. I see that you are working in industry - what did the rest of your cohort do? Did you feel generally supported in your program?

Thank you as well @hats. Maybe Temple was not a perfect example. The university ranks very highly for engineering and agriculture, but not high for my field. It is still a great fit for my research and I would receive a stipend and tuition waiver for five years. I was not thinking about prestige when I made my applications, I was thinking about research fit. The Ivy was a fluke: both a great fit and top 10 or so for my field. The others are ranked lower but well-regarded for my area of research. I would be pleased to attend any of them. I suppose all that remains is to visit and speak to current students. 

What I really wanted from this thread was to hear that I would not be considered crazy for turning down an Ivy, especially for a lower ranked school. What I got is that it is fine as long as it is for the right reasons and not just out of fear of failure.

[lambda]

Pick the schools that have the best research, the most opportunities for jobs, and most importantly, a culture you feel comfortable in. 

My good friend, who went to a state school and is unpretentious, was accepted by many Ivies. He ended up picking CalTech in the end (certainly not a shabby school at all, either) and saying he regretted not taking the interview time to attend more schools like the UCs, the other high ranked state universities, etc. He had found the Ivy culture (and I believe he was accepted at all of them for a biophysical field) to be devoid of the passion and community feel he discovered he wanted. He found all that in CalTech.

At the end of the day, the work environment and mentoring will honestly be much more productive to your success than simply a name. It is obviously best to find a combination. Don't doubt yourself, either! You COULD probably get into an Ivy. The question isn't about if you're good enough for the name, it's do you WANT to go there? Is it the best option for you?

I'm basically echoing sentiments here but.

[tamaloo]

I have a similar dilemma. An ivy with a comparitively not so great fit but excellent funding plus a scholarship! A public university that's an amazing fit, much better ranked, and fantastic work culture but in a super expensive city, offering me much less in their standard stipend.

[birdy-bear]

On 2/7/2018 at 10:15 AM, powercube said:

What I really wanted from this thread was to hear that I would not be considered crazy for turning down an Ivy, especially for a lower ranked school. What I got is that it is fine as long as it is for the right reasons and not just out of fear of failure.

I think the other key piece you're missing here is that you can turn down any program, including an Ivy league program, but if you applied to this program believing it was a great fit, you owe it to yourself to make sure that your conjectures about the program are actually true. It seems like you have a lot of preconceived notions about what an Ivy league school is like, but not enough interaction with the actual people and program to base them on. As someone mentioned above, even within a single school, the culture can vary widely from program to program. Visit the program, try to check your biases at the door, and you might surprise yourself with what you find.

Edited February 11, 2018 by birdy-bear

[hats]

@tamaloo "We are only giving you half (or three-quarters) the stipend we normally give our PhD students" is one of those factors that are significant enough that I would really suggest that you not choose that school. Is it really that great a working culture, if they don't value your work? I hope you love the Ivy after you visit, but even more so, I hope you get accepted somewhere else so you have more choices!

[tamaloo]

@hats, oops I don't think I was clear. They've offered their standard stipend, which is much less than the ivy. The ivy's also giving me summer support and a scholarship. 

I hope I get accepted somewhere else too

Edited February 12, 2018 by tamaloo

[lemma]

I only applied to one PhD school, which is a non-ivy. However, I came from an ivy undergraduate degree, and had reasonably high grades - classmates with lower GPAs, GREs and less research experience were admitted to ivies and top tech schools.

I think it is perfectly fine to decline an ivy league school because you don't think it's for you. I didn't apply to any because I thought I would be healthier, happier and more productive in a program close to the people I love, with a shorter candidature period and in a more down-to-earth culture.

Having spent four years at an ivy, I disagree strongly with the idea that if you're accepted you're cut out for it emotionally. Many people are, but many people aren't. Not everyone survives: a friend of mine is no longer alive to say this himself. Many others are counseled to leave, or have their enrollment withdrawn against their consent. 

I think you should decide whether the program ACTUALLY is something that you want. There might be a bit of impostor syndrome going on because of the program's reputation. I would encourage you to find out as much as you can about student life, and then make a decision, as it is a great opportunity. You may love it there. 

[powercube]

6 hours ago, lemma said:

Having spent four years at an ivy, I disagree strongly with the idea that if you're accepted you're cut out for it emotionally

I am sorry to hear about your friend. I think the point you made about emotional preparedness is important for anyone considering top programs in any field. That is certainly something I will speak to graduate students about during the visit weekend: how the department supports well-being and balance with graduate students. My understanding is - and the program says this themselves - that expectations are high, workload is heavy, and they want people who have a strong goals and sense of purpose. I suppose you have to know what you are doing it all for to get through it. Thank you for your comment, another perspective I had not previously considered.