Cheaper MA vs. Higher Ranking MA

[costigan95]

Hello,

Similar questions have been asked, but I wanted to give my particular example.

I graduated from a Public University with a 3.55 GPA BS in Sociology with a History minor, in December. I am planning to pursue a PhD in History and am reasoning the best path forward. 

The head of the History Department at my alma mater recommended that I look in to a MA before pursuing a PhD, as I need to iron out my languages, some more research experience, and it would only serve to strengthen my overall admission chances into a strong PhD program. My two areas of interest are 20th Century German History and US Foreign Policy in in the 1960s.

If my end goal is a PhD, then does the ranking of my MA matter all that much? My school's graduate program specializes in US History, but she said that my focus on Foreign Policy would allow for a reasonably easy transition into a German History PhD, along with better language skills. I can go here for my MA and accumulate a relatively small amount of debt, and the faculty is great. However, its not ranked super high. 

Alternatively, I could drop more money on a well known MA program and go into a PhD with substantially more debt.

I would appreciate thoughts on the matter.

Thanks! 

tldr; Cheap and convenient MA, or prestigious and expensive MA before PhD?

[Warelin]

MA ranking doesn't matter because MA programs are not ranked. The important thing is to network, present at conferences, write great-quality papers, gain a variety of experiences and do well in your academic work so that you can obtain strong recommendation letters.

[rising_star]

My only concern is that the low ranked MA program won't give you the training you need. That is, will you be able to gain experience with relevant archives and primary sources if you go to that school? Will you begin taking broad and specific grad seminars on European history in general and German history in particular?

[costigan95]

6 minutes ago, rising_star said:

My only concern is that the low ranked MA program won't give you the training you need. That is, will you be able to gain experience with relevant archives and primary sources if you go to that school? Will you begin taking broad and specific grad seminars on European history in general and German history in particular?

Don't get me wrong, it has a great program. Great profs, and I have no doubt that the quality of my work will benefit from their guidance. The archives are primarily American West documents, so it would be lacking on archival documents relating to my research areas. So that would be the one downfall.

[rising_star]

8 minutes ago, costigan95 said:

Don't get me wrong, it has a great program. Great profs, and I have no doubt that the quality of my work will benefit from their guidance. The archives are primarily American West documents, so it would be lacking on archival documents relating to my research areas. So that would be the one downfall.

IMO, that's a huge downfall. How will you produce a solid MA thesis and an excerpt to use as a writing sample for subsequent PhD applications?

[costigan95]

47 minutes ago, rising_star said:

IMO, that's a huge downfall. How will you produce a solid MA thesis and an excerpt to use as a writing sample for subsequent PhD applications?

The one area they do have some strong archives in is a former state senator, who was very active during World War II, and could yield some useful documents relating to foreign policy.

[TMP]

Would this MA program be able to fund you for research trips for the summer between your first and second year? If you want to do US Foreign policy toward Germany, you might want to be able to go to Germany, or at least, be able to obtain digital images from Bundesarchiv's foreign ministry archives.  You might want to look at the primary sources that historians have used to explore this area and where they are doing the research (most likely Bundesarchiv and National Archives in College Park).  The key is to be able to demonstrate that you can read German language documents in your writing sample.

[Averroes MD]

This is a very difficult question to answer. There is no doubt that a prestigious MA will help with PhD admissions, but you will take on debt. I don't think there is a way out of the dilemma: prestige vs debt.

[psstein]

Perhaps tangential, but don't do 20th century American diplomatic history. It's a very dead field.

Go for the cheaper option that keeps you out of debt. The history market is BAD, and going into debt is a bad decision.

[TMP]

6 hours ago, psstein said:

Perhaps tangential, but don't do 20th century American diplomatic history. It's a very dead field.

Some parts of it are really saturated.  Other parts?  There are some pretty exciting works coming out that involve race, gender and transnationalism.... the key is targeting understudied geographical areas like Central America, Africa and parts of Asia.  Just forget Europe for most part.

[KLZ]

If you plan to do an MA thesis on U.S. foreign relations, one of the biggest things you should consider (after your foreign language) is how you are going to do research abroad, even if its just dipping into and out of a foreign archive for a week (and snapping photos like crazy while you are there). If you are interested in the 1960s, you can do a lot of your primary research for the U.S. side online using FRUS, the National Archives AAD, and a lot of databases that your university will likely provide access to. You should plan to visit at least one presidential library and perhaps the library of congress as well. All this is to say, its fine for you to go to a less prestigious university (MA ranking really does not matter); the thing you want to pay attention to is how likely it will be for you to get travel funding from your institution to do your archival research. I did my MA at a public university that wouldn't be considered highly ranked, but they offered me two years of tuition coverage (I worked as a TA), a non-negligible stipend & healthcare, and I received enough travel funding to support a 10-day trip abroad and a conference presentation across the US. 

I agree with TMP's assessment above. You can absolutely to diplomatic history. SHAFR is very active and exciting, and diplomatic historians are winning plenty of research grants and winning book awards. Some parts of the field are saturated, but many are expanding. If wouldn't go as far to say forget about Europe, but proceed with caution. 

[Katzenmusik]

Oh good, my favorite topic! 

First, it shouldn't matter that the school's own archives do not relate to your research area.  Is this school really so remote that you can't travel to any other archives?  Or think about it this way... worst case scenario, if the MA program doesn't offer travel funding, and you have to save up to fund your own research travel for a week or two over break, wouldn't you still be making out way better than if you went into huge debt for an MA elsewhere?

Second, no, the prestige of the MA does not really matter so much (compared to the PhD), so long as you are going somewhere reputable (obviously not "Columbiana" or "Barkley" or whatever that for-profit scam was).  There are amazing, well-connected faculty at low-ranked schools. Think how hard it is to get a tenure-track job, anywhere... and these professors are some of ones who made it through the gauntlet.  The important thing is to do your absolute best in the program. Find mentors. Hone your craft. Seize opportunities. Take the program seriously and work at every angle so that by the end you are shiny and golden.

Third, unfunded MA students at fancy schools are cash cows. Typically the admissions are not super selective. Your tuition dollars are used to fund everyone else. Unless you have some sort of grant or independent wealth, it is best to avoid this. You're not earning prestige, you're being exploited.

Now... a few things to consider for your specific situation:

You might try widening your circle of influences by going elsewhere for a (funded) MA. You could apply to your own alma mater, but also cast the net to include a few other programs, and see what happens.  It can't hurt to get to know more professors, or to be in a program more closely aligned with your research interests.  (There are other threads here about finding funded MA programs.)

I would also highly recommend taking a year or two off from academia.  It helps with perspective, and also with knowing that you have skills to survive outside the framework of school. Ideally you could also save up money on the outside, before going back in. (Edited to add: re-reading, I see that you just graduated with your BA in December. So you would have almost two years off before starting a graduate program in fall 2019. That seems okay. Longer would also be okay.)

Good luck!

Edited March 13, 2018 by Katzenmusik

[costigan95]

9 hours ago, Katzenmusik said:

You might try widening your circle of influences by going elsewhere for a (funded) MA. You could apply to your own alma mater, but also cast the net to include a few other programs, and see what happens.  It can't hurt to get to know more professors, or to be in a program more closely aligned with your research interests.  (There are other threads here about finding funded MA programs.)

I would also highly recommend taking a year or two off from academia.  It helps with perspective, and also with knowing that you have skills to survive outside the framework of school. Ideally you could also save up money on the outside, before going back in. (Edited to add: re-reading, I see that you just graduated with your BA in December. So you would have almost two years off before starting a graduate program in fall 2019. That seems okay. Longer would also be okay.)

Good luck!

Thank you for the informative reply!

I am looking in to schools abroad, as they will provide a new experience and are generally cheaper and/or funded to varying degrees. I also agree that new connections would be valuable.

Time off is surely important, as reflection can do no harm. I am working full-time, but also did through most of undergrad so I am likely already aware of the skills I have in the "real world." Either way it still provides good opportunity for money and personal growth.

 

Does anyone have thoughts on the Canadian and European MA programs?

[Katzenmusik]

8 hours ago, costigan95 said:

Thank you for the informative reply!

I am looking in to schools abroad, as they will provide a new experience and are generally cheaper and/or funded to varying degrees. I also agree that new connections would be valuable.

Time off is surely important, as reflection can do no harm. I am working full-time, but also did through most of undergrad so I am likely already aware of the skills I have in the "real world." Either way it still provides good opportunity for money and personal growth.

 

Does anyone have thoughts on the Canadian and European MA programs?

Working: excellent!  Sock away as much $$$ as you can!  This will be a good cushion to have as you start grad school.

About Canadian/European MAs:

1. Look into the Fulbright U.S. Student Program. You could use the funding to help cover your tuition costs.  Certain countries are more competitive than others. 

2. Are you sure MAs abroad tend to be cheaper?  From what I have gathered, they can often be cheap for citizens but may charge a premium for international students. 

[gorange94]

I'm in a similar position to the OP, but asking a question more so about flexibility: I need to decide at the MA level between Chicago's MAPSS (just under 20K tuition) and a well-ranked regular history MA (my alma mater) with no stipend but a tuition waiver. I really like having the opportunity to use MAPSS for interdisciplinary means and get a degree with more value in the job market if I do not then pursue the PhD, but is having this flexibility over a normal history MA worth paying the $20,000?

[TMP]

18 hours ago, gorange94 said:

I'm in a similar position to the OP, but asking a question more so about flexibility: I need to decide at the MA level between Chicago's MAPSS (just under 20K tuition) and a well-ranked regular history MA (my alma mater) with no stipend but a tuition waiver. I really like having the opportunity to use MAPSS for interdisciplinary means and get a degree with more value in the job market if I do not then pursue the PhD, but is having this flexibility over a normal history MA worth paying the $20,000?

What is your end goal?

[gorange94]

1 hour ago, TMP said:

What is your end goal?

I think I'd like to become a professor (whether a 'prestigious' school or not doesn't matter much). At the same time though, I'm also wary of both the fact that I don't already have any experience trying out a normal job first and my research interests (20th century political) are such that if I weren't doing history academically, I think it translates well enough to non-history sphere jobs... So that's why I see a lot of value in Chicago's program that a different MA doesn't offer. It's just very difficult for me grappling between that and the fact that $20,000 is $20,000.

Edited April 5, 2018 by gorange94

[psstein]

4 hours ago, gorange94 said:

I think I'd like to become a professor (whether a 'prestigious' school or not doesn't matter much).

Not to be rude, but I think you ought to reconsider. The vast majority of PhD graduates in history will never have TT jobs, so "I want to get a PhD so I can become a professor" is likely to end in disappointment. It may not be fair, but it's the reality. Do yourself a favor and take some time off, then re-apply if you want.

Honestly, I started a PhD program right after I graduated, and I think I should've waited a year or two. There are other things I could've done with my life, but they weren't apparent at the time.

[TMP]

5 hours ago, gorange94 said:

I think I'd like to become a professor (whether a 'prestigious' school or not doesn't matter much). At the same time though, I'm also wary of both the fact that I don't already have any experience trying out a normal job first and my research interests (20th century political) are such that if I weren't doing history academically, I think it translates well enough to non-history sphere jobs... So that's why I see a lot of value in Chicago's program that a different MA doesn't offer. It's just very difficult for me grappling between that and the fact that $20,000 is $20,000.

So, what is the rush to get into grad school then?  Why not take a year or two off to get a "normal" job and see what's out there besides being a professor? As you undoubtedly know, the PhD is a long haul and will take up a good portion of your 20s (assuming you're of traditional age).  You can apply to both MA and PhD programs the next time around.

[gorange94]

45 minutes ago, TMP said:

So, what is the rush to get into grad school then?  Why not take a year or two off to get a "normal" job and see what's out there besides being a professor? As you undoubtedly know, the PhD is a long haul and will take up a good portion of your 20s (assuming you're of traditional age).  You can apply to both MA and PhD programs the next time around.

 

1 hour ago, psstein said:

Not to be rude, but I think you ought to reconsider. The vast majority of PhD graduates in history will never have TT jobs, so "I want to get a PhD so I can become a professor" is likely to end in disappointment. It may not be fair, but it's the reality. Do yourself a favor and take some time off, then re-apply if you want.

Honestly, I started a PhD program right after I graduated, and I think I should've waited a year or two. There are other things I could've done with my life, but they weren't apparent at the time.

Not rude at all, thank you both for the feedback! I probably should have been more clear- When I mention taking a regular job, I still mean work that requires an MA, just not PhD. So I feel like, unless I were to take a year off and realize hey, I really do feel good about going through a PhD, I'd want a masters regardless. And then also, there's a human element to it all, and I feel like it wouldn't be a good idea to turn down both good offers at the MA level (and an offer from a PhD I think I'll be turning down given my uncertainty) and then next year go back to the same professors who have just worked hard writing my letters and ask them to do it all again.

So, anyway, I definitely agree with the idea of taking the time to further familiarize myself with options outside of being a professor. It's just that, along with what I just mentioned, I feel like the best way to do that is take a masters offer given I need a masters for my other career options anyway. 

[Katzenmusik]

@gorange94

Gotta say, your plans seem a little hazy to be forking out $20K. Do you have particular career goals that MAPSS will help you achieve? If not, there's a danger that you could spend the time in a kind of interdisciplinary haze, becoming a jack of all trades, master of none, and winding up with a degree that isn't legible to employers.

Edited to add: It would be best to go in to this (or any a graduate program) with some kind of focus. If you don't yet have focus, either a year or two off OR a free degree while you sort things out seem preferable to MAPSS. I have no personal experience of MAPSS, but from what alumni have posted here over the years, I gather that a strong drive and focus seem necessary to make the most of it. 

Edited April 10, 2018 by Katzenmusik

[TMP]

@gorange94  Now I'm curious to know what your letter writers think about your current thoughts.

[gorange94]

20 hours ago, Katzenmusik said:

@gorange94

Gotta say, your plans seem a little hazy to be forking out $20K. Do you have particular career goals that MAPSS will help you achieve? If not, there's a danger that you could spend the time in a kind of interdisciplinary haze, becoming a jack of all trades, master of none, and winding up with a degree that isn't legible to employers.

Edited to add: It would be best to go in to this (or any a graduate program) with some kind of focus. If you don't yet have focus, either a year or two off OR a free degree while you sort things out seem preferable to MAPSS. I have no personal experience of MAPSS, but from what alumni have posted here over the years, I gather that a strong drive and focus seem necessary to make the most of it. 

Thank you for mentioning. I have a specific focus in terms of which kinds of courses I want to take, but in terms of specific career goals, I'd be interested in giving a consulting, think tank, or lower level teaching type job a look before fully committing to a PhD. So, for the first two at least (non-overseas teaching I'm not sure MAPSS alone would help for) the program would work well for setting me up for that.  The 'master of none' concern is definitely a good point to consider though... But I also don't know if I'd ever feel 100% on my career path without having a chance to give things a trial run. And it sounds like MAPSS's program is better for my test options than a history program, but of course you're welcome to correct me if you feel I'm underestimating the history degree, maybe I am.

@TMP They were more or less suggesting the same conundrum I'm dealing with now. That MAPSS in a vacuum is the best choice, but it's impossible to tell someone else how much money that should be worth and it's up to me whether I want to spend that much on the additional degree value it supplies. One thing they had not really advised was taking a year off (that's why I mention the human element-- I had thought about it a bit but talking to them I got the feeling it would have looked bad to them turning down multiple good offers just to do that in the end, when I had applied to a lot of schools and gotten their letters for all of them). And then also, if I did that there's no guarantee I get into MAPSS again down the road, or with about 2/3 tuition off. But I do see the value in terms of thinking about things more and not needing to do that if I now feel confident enough in a specific path to not need to shell out the money for an MA allowing me to explore multiple options.

Edited April 11, 2018 by gorange94