Lower-Ranked Ivy - Worth It?

[sarah_o]

So stuck here. I got an offer from Brown's MPA program. The program is a perfect fit for me, but it's not super highly-ranked. My other offer is from UNC (top 25). Is the Ivy League brand worth it in this case? Please note that Brown's program is only a few years old. Please help!

[BabyScientist]

Whether or not it's a new program, Brown likely has strong faculty, which comes with the Ivy League brand. If you feel that Brown is a better fit for you than UNC, then go to Brown.

[rising_star]

Honestly, no. The Brown name isn't well-known as even being part of the Ivy League outside of the northeast/mid-Atlantic states.

[NewPhD]

I’m not sure where you got this idea. I don’t know about every department, but as a whole, Brown is very well known and respected. People definitely know it’s Ivy League. And, at least in some departments, there is significant collaboration with Harvard and Yale, as wells as the other Ivies. 

Edited March 22, 2018 by NewPhD

[rising_star]

@NewPhD, I've lived in many places around the US and have several friends who went to Brown. What they've found, depending on where they are in the country, is that people outside academia aren't sure of what Brown is or where it is. The OP is asking about a professional master's so the ability to go to a program that people outside academia recognize is prestigious is key. UNC's public policy program, in many places, will be better recognized precisely because it is in the top 25 unlike Brown. 

[DiscoTech]

11 hours ago, NewPhD said:

I’m not sure where you got this idea. I don’t know about every department, but as a whole, Brown is very well known and respected. People definitely know it’s Ivy League. And, at least in some departments, there is significant collaboration with Harvard and Yale, as wells as the other Ivies. 

LOL.

[BabyScientist]

Bottom line for any grad program anywhere, go to the one that is the best fit for you. 

[madamoiselle]

I just made a similar decision for my Ph.D. between Berkeley and what may be considered a "lower-ranked" Ivy. I ultimately chose Berkeley in the end, but your results may vary!

There is no doubt, whatsoever, that universities in the Ivy League (all of them, not just HYP) come with some stellar resources such as Ivy Plus in the libraries, certain consortiums, etc. When you think about the Ivy League, think about resources and what those academic interconnections might be able to give you, over name, reputation and Ivy League sparkle. On that note, please do not get sucked into this "high ivy" versus "low ivy" mentality; they're all fantastic schools, and getting into one is an accomplishment! I'm only really versed on funded Ph.D.s and I know masters have more varied funding; that may also be a consideration you need to take into account.

At the end of the day, I chose the public institution based completely and totally on fit (money and environment were pretty equivalent). If the Ivy I looked at were a better fit, I would have gone there. You do say that Brown is a perfect fit for you. Have you been able to visit (or will you be able to?) If you like the intellectual energy and feel as though it will cater to your academic needs, then go for it! At the end of the day, you won't be picking Brown because it's an Ivy League and you're following the name, but instead because it is a place where you work can flourish.

Best of luck for your decision-- both are great institutions! 

Edited March 24, 2018 by madamoiselle

[juilletmercredi]

@rising_star's right. I live on the West Coast of the U.S., and people are far less familiar with what schools are prestigious and parts of which tony athletic conferences and whatnot. As someone who grew up on the East Coast, I'm continually surprised about what places people recognize and what places people don't. It's not that people won't respect Brown or even know it, but a lot of people won't know it's in the Ivy League, and even if they did that won't be as important to people. Here where I live, I would say it's a toss-up as to whether people would be more familiar with Brown or UNC.

I went to an Ivy for my PhD and I agree with @madamoiselle. What you get from the Ivies is not "Ivy League sparkle", it's the resources: great libraries, world-class researchers, excellent equipment and facilities, excellent career services and placements, consortia, etc. The thing is, there are LOTS of other places that can give you those things. UNC is a world-class university that ALSO has all of those things attached to it. Which athletic conference the university is in is hardly material: both of these universities have great reputations, and in certain fields, UNC's actual research and output trumps the elite name of Brown. (For example, in both of my fields of training - public health and psychology - I'd pick UNC over Brown any day of the week.)

With that said, especially with a professional master's look at career placement. Where do UNC's grads end up after they finish, and what about Brown's? What networks do they have and do they end up in places that sound appealing to you professionally?

[BabyScientist]

As a Californian, before applying to grad school, I wouldn't have known UNC was even remotely a notable school, but I've always known Brown. 

[DiscoTech]

14 hours ago, BabyScientist said:

As a Californian, before applying to grad school, I wouldn't have known UNC was even remotely a notable school, but I've always known Brown. 

Cool story.

[psych-grad]

On 3/25/2018 at 11:36 PM, BabyScientist said:

As a Californian, before applying to grad school, I wouldn't have known UNC was even remotely a notable school, but I've always known Brown. 

And to take it even further, before applying to grad school this fall, I did not know WUSTL, Chicago, Vanderbilt, NYU, CIT, UND, Northwestern, Emory, Georgetown, USC, UVA, Michigan, Brandeis, MIT, Bloomington, SUNY, any of those top 50 liberal arts colleges (still don't), any of those public ivies, etc......yeah, i was kinda weird. Actually, I didn't even know UPenn was an ivy until college. As a Northeasterner, whenever I thought about prestigious, basically just Boston schools, Rutgers, and UMass came to mind.  For some reason, I thought public flagships were all prestigious enough.......and, actually, I still do. Really, its SO SO SO SO bizarre because the exception was I knew almost all the best schools in Boston and New York, ie Northeastern, Tufts, BU, Syracuse, Rochester, and Fordham.....I also knew duke, carnegie mellon and johns hopkins but I had no clue they were even remotely close to an ivy and I was way more impressed when I found out someone I knew went to Rutgers for undergrad compared to the fact that they went to JH for PHD......*eyeflinch eyeflinch* haha i didnt even know what a PHD was till junior year of hs......clearly, I'm an academic. ;P ? ?

On 3/26/2018 at 1:34 PM, DiscoTech said:

Cool story.

 

Do you like mine @DiscoTech? 

 

On 3/21/2018 at 11:00 AM, sarahlivia said:

So stuck here. I got an offer from Brown's MPA program. The program is a perfect fit for me, but it's not super highly-ranked. My other offer is from UNC (top 25). Is the Ivy League brand worth it in this case? Please note that Brown's program is only a few years old. Please help!

If its a perfect fit, why worry about ranking?  Brown has a great name and as others have said, I never even knew of UNC until applying to grad school, so it seems like you would be getting "prestige" in either scenario, although Brown is a better fit. IMO, Brown would impress me 10x more even if its not top 25....

[DiscoTech]

2 hours ago, psych-grad said:

If its a perfect fit, why worry about ranking?  Brown has a great name and as others have said, I never even knew of UNC until applying to grad school, so it seems like you would be getting "prestige" in either scenario, although Brown is a better fit. IMO, Brown would impress me 10x more even if its not top 25....

Now all OP needs is for you to be on his/her hiring committees in the future. 

I was snarky before because everyone seems to be conflating Brown's well earned reputation as an undergraduate institution with excellence in postgraduate programs. This is decidedly not the case. In fact, Brown (as far as reputation among peers in the respective fields) is a middling postgraduate institution (https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/brown-university-217156/overall-rankings). But yes, the Brown name will impress randos off the street. 

Public policy jobs are tricky to get. Not all openings get posted and more often than not people tap their network to fill openings. I know this because my SO spent 6 years in doing public policy work in DC. What OP should care about is the reach of Brown's network maybe it is great. I dont know. Placement and network are what matter if what OP wants is to get the right job after graduation. I didnt know either place had a public policy school. Damned if I know. Which is why I havent chimed in with advice on one school versus the other. But from the sounds of it no one else in this thread has much of an idea beyond "Brown haz preftige!" or "No prestige!"

OP - Find people in the field who know what they are talking about and ask them. All this thread is good for is arguing over what will impress a rando on the street more.

[ExponentialDecay]

I'm not how the debate devolved into a shitstorm about what Ivies are known as Ivies, but, speaking specifically to the Brown MPA:

Generally in policy hiring, either the name of your MPA institution matters a great deal or it doesn't matter at all. The prestigious schools in policy are Harvard Kennedy, Princeton Wilson, Chicago Harris, Columbia SIPA, Johns Hopkins SAIS, and Georgetown (I don't know which specific program bc they are outside my professional area, but in their professional area they are good). I'm probably forgetting a couple and some otherwise non-prestigious schools may be well-regarded in niche specializations, but that's the list and basically I'm saying that Brown is not on it (for now, perhaps - but idk that Brown has the precedent to become a policy powerhouse). Taking those two priors, if you're aiming for a prestige-oriented career, getting an MPA from Brown won't help you, and if you're aiming for a career where prestige is not a factor... getting an MPA from Brown won't help you.

If they're covering a substantial proportion of your costs and you like the program, go. But I wouldn't pay physical money, out of pocket or loans, to attend.

[MrsPhD]

How is the placement of their graduates? You should be looking into that.