Do I honestly have a chance at a career?

[QueDoisJeFaire]

So, I'm in undergrad. Long story short, I didn't know what I wanted to do out of high school, went to community college in 2005 and fucked up my GPA for a few years, and then kind of gave up. Around age 20 I realized I wanted to be in history academia, but figured I'd ruined things for myself already. Fast forward to last summer. I'm in my early 30s, am tired of working retail, and go back to school. I've actually realized how to be a real student this time, got a 4.0 for my last two semesters and have been accepted to a decent state school for the Fall to finish my undergrad degree. My overall GPA is not good, but I've been doing very well since returning to school.

However, I've spent most of the last year hearing horror stories about people who have actually graduated with history PhDs. One of my professors, when I expressed concerns about the time and effort it would take compared to job prospects, told me that a couple years back, UNCG had a single, open history associate professorship that received nearly 1,000 applications. So I started to look at law school. I'd be very interested in public service law, but the prospect of making the kind of money public service lawyers make while taking on as much as $150,000 in debt feels unwise. This last semester, after very much enjoying a statistics course, I began looking into switching to a math major. With just a masters, with the right supplementary skills, the career prospects for statistics graduates are very good. I've never taken any high level math, but I'm taking precalculus over the summer and will make my decision in the Fall.

The problem is, for nearly 13 years the ONLY thing I have been able to imagine myself doing and loving is history. I'm really worried about A) Burning out before I finish my math degree, or b) Burning out after a few years working professionally in a quantitative career.

I've never done any real history research (Just papers for my courses.), but my school has a supervised undergraduate research program that would let me get genuine experience if I wanted to. Looking into it, a real career with a statistics degree would still require graduate school. If that's my goal anyway, I'm starting to reconsider ruling out history.

So here's my question(s).

1) Would I have ANY shot at a full time academic career with a history degree if I went anywhere but one of the best schools?

2) Assuming my GPA ends up around 3.2 (Entirely because of courses taken a decade ago. My goal is to get stellar grades for the remainder of my undergrad degree. My grades in my history courses are very good, as well, if that matters at all.), does that lock me out entirely from the kind of schools I would need to get accepted to in order to have reasonable career prospects? My school is a public liberal arts college, with very small class sizes. I have high hopes of being able to get excellent letters of recommendation, and at least a full year of supervised undergrad research. Will my applications be tossed because of my overall GPA, however?

3) Is working as an adjunct as soul-crushing as everybody says, assuming TT positions are forever out of my reach?

4) I'm intrigued by public history. Are the career prospects in non-academic related public history at all decent?

5) If I do end up majoring in math/stats, does anybody know of any way I could transform that into an at least history-adjacent career?

Edited June 1, 2018 by DistantMirror

[ExponentialDecay]

I'm not in history or law and I'm not strictly in statistics, but I just want to tell you: please don't pick a degree based on the career prospects alone. Applied math is a fascinating field with indeed very good career prospects, but the problem is that you actually have to be willing and able to do the career in order to get at the prospects. By all means try it out, but if you find yourself struggling to maintain either your grades or interest in what you're learning, I wouldn't continue in it. A degree in math that you don't use is just as good as a degree in basketweaving studies that you don't use.

You, like many undergraduates, believe you are constrained to a narrower set of options than is the reality. It's not history professorship, law, statistics, or oblivion. The vast majority of decent-paying jobs that require a bachelor's degree don't care what it's in and have you doing things that you've probably never even heard of: operations, office management, account management, etc. They also don't necessarily amount to cubicle hell. Degrees in non-quantitative subjects do sometimes disqualify you from quantitative jobs, but if you don't want one of those, then not much has been lost. 

If you maintain a decent GPA and get a good LSAT, you can get into at least a decent regional school with a scholarship. Regarding history, no, there's not much chance of getting an academic career, and especially from non-top schools, but you're worrying too much about your GPA and too little about the stuff that actually matters. Get good relationships with your professors, really engage with the scholarship, produce a competitive writing sample, and you'll stand a chance (though maybe you'll need to do a masters). While you're at it, try interning or working part time in an office to see what your exit opps are. It's not that bleak out there.

[AfricanusCrowther]

Regarding PI law, look for Loan Repayment Assistance Programs for public service when applying to law schools. The top ones all have them. And start reading the TLS forums for advice on preparing for a career in PI law and law school in general. And if you’re at all serious about considering law school, start taking a look at the LSAT and determining how best to prepare. It is a hard test that rewards consistent practice.

Edited June 1, 2018 by AfricanusCrowther

[rising_star]

2 hours ago, DistantMirror said:

1) Would I have ANY shot at a full time academic career with a history degree if I went anywhere but one of the best schools?

Honestly, not likely though this does somewhat depend on your specific interests in terms of time period and region. You haven't said anything here about what areas of history you're most interested in, which is a key factor in all of this.

2 hours ago, DistantMirror said:

2) Assuming my GPA ends up around 3.2 (Entirely because of courses taken a decade ago. My goal is to get stellar grades for the remainder of my undergrad degree. My grades in my history courses are very good, as well, if that matters at all.), does that lock me out entirely from the kind of schools I would need to get accepted to in order to have reasonable career prospects? My school is a public liberal arts college, with very small class sizes. I have high hopes of being able to get excellent letters of recommendation, and at least a full year of supervised undergrad research. Will my applications be tossed because of my overall GPA, however?

As has already been said, you need to focus on the things outside of class. Research experience is great but a thesis where you engage with primary sources is better. To get excellent rec letters, you need to do more than just do well in class. You might also see if you can present at a conference, do an independent study, work as a RA for a professor, etc. Oh, and take a broad range of courses so you can really narrow down your historical interests. Doing so will help you write a strong SOP.

2 hours ago, DistantMirror said:

3) Is working as an adjunct as soul-crushing as everybody says, assuming TT positions are forever out of my reach?

This probably varies from one person to the next. Personally, I would never work as an adjunct unless I had a full-time job which was fairly compensating me for my work. The wages are too low to survive and you'll be struggling. Check out Con Job on Facebook if you want some firsthand accounts.

As @ExponentialDecay already said, don't choose a field based solely on job prospects. If you don't like it, you will end up miserable even if you're making good money. (And also, money isn't everything!) You may also want to brainstorm ways to combine your interests. For example, would you be interested in doing something like big data work with historical information? If so, consider taking a course or two in computer science and/or programming so you have the skills. Another quantitative areas with overlaps with history is GIS.

[psstein]

2 hours ago, DistantMirror said:

1) Would I have ANY shot at a full time academic career with a history degree if I went anywhere but one of the best schools?

2) Assuming my GPA ends up around 3.2 (Entirely because of courses taken a decade ago. My goal is to get stellar grades for the remainder of my undergrad degree. My grades in my history courses are very good, as well, if that matters at all.), does that lock me out entirely from the kind of schools I would need to get accepted to in order to have reasonable career prospects? My school is a public liberal arts college, with very small class sizes. I have high hopes of being able to get excellent letters of recommendation, and at least a full year of supervised undergrad research. Will my applications be tossed because of my overall GPA, however?

3) Is working as an adjunct as soul-crushing as everybody says, assuming TT positions are forever out of my reach?

4) I'm intrigued by public history. Are the career prospects in non-academic related public history at all decent?

5) If I do end up majoring in math/stats, does anybody know of any way I could transform that into an at least history-adjacent career?

If you can see yourself doing anything else (I mean anything else, whether it's the Navy or law school or whatever), do it. Don't do a history PhD.

As to your questions:

1. Yes, though your chances fall dramatically outside the top 10-15 programs. The studies that exist don't take R2/R3 programs into account and operate via a somewhat strange ranking system, but they demonstrate that the vast majority of tenured academic historians at R1 universities graduate from 10 or so programs. Probably 90% of tenured/TT history professors at R1s come from the top programs, especially those hired after the 2008 financial collapse. Also, keep things like advisor and program reputation in mind. Do not use the US News and World Report rankings to determine departmental rankings.

2. Your overall GPA is a bit of a side concern. Your major GPA matters far more. Concern yourself with the things within your control, like writing sample and statement of purpose. If you can do those two well, as well as have excellent letters, your GPA becomes a secondary concern.

3. Yes. There's a reason it's called adjunct hell. Adjuncts often are not able to do research/publish/etc., which are the things that help one win the academic lottery.

4. I don't know. From what little I've heard, public history positions are competitive.

5. I'll leave this to other people.

[rising_star]

Re: adjuncting: This recent piece in The Guardian is worth a read: https://www.theguardian.com/higher-education-network/2018/jun/01/academics-candidates-outstanding-application-recruitment

[QueDoisJeFaire]

1 hour ago, ExponentialDecay said:

You, like many undergraduates, believe you are constrained to a narrower set of options than is the reality. It's not history professorship, law, statistics, or oblivion. The vast majority of decent-paying jobs that require a bachelor's degree don't care what it's in and have you doing things that you've probably never even heard of: operations, office management, account management, etc. They also don't necessarily amount to cubicle hell. Degrees in non-quantitative subjects do sometimes disqualify you from quantitative jobs, but if you don't want one of those, then not much has been lost. 

If you maintain a decent GPA and get a good LSAT, you can get into at least a decent regional school with a scholarship. Regarding history, no, there's not much chance of getting an academic career, and especially from non-top schools, but you're worrying too much about your GPA and too little about the stuff that actually matters. Get good relationships with your professors, really engage with the scholarship, produce a competitive writing sample, and you'll stand a chance (though maybe you'll need to do a masters). While you're at it, try interning or working part time in an office to see what your exit opps are. It's not that bleak out there.

I'm definitely interested, in theory, in the kinds of jobs I'd be able to get with a humanities degree. I'll need to look into that more, particularly what kinds of skills I would need at graduation to enter the job market.

Yeah, from what I understand, I have a shot at attending a decent law school with reduced tuition. Not sure I'd enjoy law any more than, say, biostatistics. I spent some time in the fall trying to find a part time job in a law office, which I feel like would provide some good perspective.

 

35 minutes ago, AfricanusCrowther said:

Regarding PI law, look for Loan Repayment Assistance Programs for public service when applying to law schools. The top ones all have them. And start reading the TLS forums for advice on preparing for a career in PI law and law school in general. And if you’re at all serious about considering law school, start taking a look at the LSAT and determining how best to prepare. It is a hard test that rewards consistent practice.

I spent a ton of time on TLS over winter break, which convinced me I'd have a shot. Not at big law, but definitely at something like a public defender. I will say I've been spooked, however, at the news that applications to law school are on the rise again after declining for a good many years. I don't want to end up in a situation like law school graduates in 08/09.

 

13 minutes ago, rising_star said:

Honestly, not likely though this does somewhat depend on your specific interests in terms of time period and region. You haven't said anything here about what areas of history you're most interested in, which is a key factor in all of this.

In rough order of interest: 1) Medieval/Early Modern Mediterranean, 2) Late Antiquity, esp. eastern Mediterranean, 3) Eastern Europe in the 19th century, 4) Early history of the USSR, 5) Very late history/dissolution of the USSR, 6) The Cold War in South America/Indonesia. Most especially the Dirty War in Argentina and the crackdowns in Indonesia in 65/66, 7) Caribbean/Atlantic in the 17th and 18th centuries.

I also am deeply in love with learning about Reconstruction, but I have also heard that American history is kind of a dead end at the moment.

[QueDoisJeFaire]

20 minutes ago, psstein said:

If you can see yourself doing anything else (I mean anything else, whether it's the Navy or law school or whatever), do it. Don't do a history PhD.

2. Your overall GPA is a bit of a side concern. Your major GPA matters far more. Concern yourself with the things within your control, like writing sample and statement of purpose. If you can do those two well, as well as have excellent letters, your GPA becomes a secondary concern.

So it's not, in and of itself, disqualifying from the top 10-15 schools?

 

32 minutes ago, rising_star said:

 For example, would you be interested in doing something like big data work with historical information? If so, consider taking a course or two in computer science and/or programming so you have the skills.

I'd be very interested in doing that, actually.

[QueDoisJeFaire]

50 minutes ago, rising_star said:

As @ExponentialDecay already said, don't choose a field based solely on job prospects. If you don't like it, you will end up miserable even if you're making good money. (And also, money isn't everything!) 

This is true! It's the main reason I'm reconsidering. I will say looking into statistics isn't only about job prospects, it was just the first thing I'd looked into that had both good job prospects and didn't sound absolutely awful to me. My big concern is not being able to hack the kind of advanced math that I won't even be exposed to for another 2 or 3 years, at which point I'd feel so deep in the hole I wouldn't know what to do if I realized it wasn't for me.

I spent a period of months focusing on what I'd need to do for law school last fall/winter, but I kept coming back to fantasizing about going to school for history. Same thing the last few months regarding statistics. That article about adjuncts was good to read, I may just need to be scared away from this every so often. But then I wonder, if I don't try for this, will I just spend the rest of my life wishing I had?

EDIT: Sorry for the multiple posts. I couldn't figure out how to split up quotes from a single post.

Edited June 1, 2018 by DistantMirror

[Sigaba]

2 hours ago, DistantMirror said:

 I'm in my early 30s, ...

The problem is, for nearly 13 years the ONLY thing I have been able to imagine myself doing and loving is history.

I've never done any real history research (Just papers for my courses.)

IMO, the largest challenge in front of you is that while you're imagining yourself doing history, the individuals with whom you'll compete for jobs are doing history. MOO, addressing this disparity should be your primary focus because your skill level is something you can control. You can learn to read, to think, to write, and to act like a historian. You cannot forecast the job market five to ten years from now. 

What is the craft of history? Why do you want to be a historian? What is public history and why do you want to specialize in that field? How do you see yourself impacting the key historiopgraphical debates in public history? IMO, the answers to these questions will be of more interest to historians than your GPA.

I very strongly recommend that you start working on the thumbnail sketch that will indicate you are committed to the craft. Something along the general lines of:

History is the study of change over time. Public history is [left intentionally blank]. By focusing on A,B, and C from the perspective of a public historian, I hope to contribute X, Y, and Z to debates 1, 2, and 3. As a graduate student, I will do j,k,l, and m, ideally with Professors Curry, Durant, and James.

FWIW, one of the most brilliant people I've ever met was a UG classmate who double majored in math and history. He went to graduate school in history almost as an afterthought and he easily secured for himself a TT position. 

HTH

[QueDoisJeFaire]

9 minutes ago, Sigaba said:

I very strongly recommend that you start working on the thumbnail sketch that will indicate you are committed to the craft. Something along the general lines of:

History is the study of change over time. Public history is [left intentionally blank]. By focusing on A,B, and C from the perspective of a public historian, I hope to contribute X, Y, and Z to debates 1, 2, and 3. As a graduate student, I will do j,k,l, and m, ideally with Professors Curry, Durant, and James.

FWIW, one of the most brilliant people I've ever met was a UG classmate who double majored in math and history. He went to graduate school in history almost as an afterthought and he easily secured for himself a TT position. 

So, if I do get a math degree, I have 3 years left in school as opposed to 2, and I almost certainly would get a second undergrad degree because of that. I've considered doing both math/stats and history. I feel like it'd be hard or impossible to prepare for applying to graduate school in EITHER math or history, however, since I feel like I'd certainly need to focus on one or the other to get the kind of recommendations I would need.

[psstein]

28 minutes ago, DistantMirror said:

So it's not, in and of itself, disqualifying from the top 10-15 schools?

It can be, but your GPA is not so low that it is. You may have to do a MA and you may not.

If you had a 3.2 in history, you'd have more cause for concern.

[rising_star]

40 minutes ago, DistantMirror said:

In rough order of interest: 1) Medieval/Early Modern Mediterranean, 2) Late Antiquity, esp. eastern Mediterranean, 3) Eastern Europe in the 19th century, 4) Early history of the USSR, 5) Very late history/dissolution of the USSR, 6) The Cold War in South America/Indonesia. Most especially the Dirty War in Argentina and the crackdowns in Indonesia in 65/66, 7) Caribbean/Atlantic in the 17th and 18th centuries.

I also am deeply in love with learning about Reconstruction, but I have also heard that American history is kind of a dead end at the moment.

Do you have the language training to read primary sources in any of these areas? If not, gaining those skills while still an UG should be your priority. You also definitely want to work on narrowing this down as these are vastly different areas. Is there a topic or theme which connects these different places and times for you? @Sigaba's advice on how to think will hopefully help with this.

 

21 minutes ago, DistantMirror said:

EDIT: Sorry for the multiple posts. I couldn't figure out how to split up quotes from a single post.

The black plus sign in the gray box to the left of "Quote | Edit | Options" at the bottom of a post will allow you to multi-quote. 

[Sigaba]

58 minutes ago, DistantMirror said:

In rough order of interest: 1) Medieval/Early Modern Mediterranean, 2) Late Antiquity, esp. eastern Mediterranean, 3) Eastern Europe in the 19th century, 4) Early history of the USSR, 5) Very late history/dissolution of the USSR, 6) The Cold War in South America/Indonesia. Most especially the Dirty War in Argentina and the crackdowns in Indonesia in 65/66, 7) Caribbean/Atlantic in the 17th and 18th centuries.

I also am deeply in love with learning about Reconstruction, but I have also heard that American history is kind of a dead end at the moment.

I apologize for missing this comment. IMO, unless you have in mind themes that tie your interests together from the perspective of transnational or international history, your interests may be too broad for your own good. Any single one of the items you listed is enough for a career. 

IRT American history and Reconstruction, I strongly suggest that you find a different way to express your view of the former and interest in the latter. For many, Reconstruction and its historiography remain exceptionally controversial and painful subjects, especially with the current president fanning the flames of the Lost Cause. "Love with learning" can be misinterpreted as an insensitivity to that pain. As for American history being "kind of a dead end..."

[QueDoisJeFaire]

1 hour ago, Sigaba said:

IRT American history and Reconstruction, I strongly suggest that you find a different way to express your view of the former and interest in the latter. For many, Reconstruction and its historiography remain exceptionally controversial and painful subjects, especially with the current president fanning the flames of the Lost Cause. "Love with learning" can be misinterpreted as an insensitivity to that pain. As for American history being "kind of a dead end..."

I apologize, I wasn’t trying to trivialize or be flippant about Reconstruction. I also apologize if I have misunderstood in the past, but I was under the impression that the career prospects for those who specialize in American History were especially poor, even compared to many others.

 

Regarding that list, I also didn’t mean to imply I wanted to pursue research about all of those subjects collectively. Just that I would be pretty happy having the opportunity to research any one of them individually. I am aware I would need to choose a narrow focus. As I said, I’ve spent the last year assuming I wouldn’t be going to grad school for history, and the decade preceding that assuming I wouldn’t even be able to. It’s only since the end of spring semester, and learning of my acceptance to a full university, that I’ve begun to look into the subject further.

Regarding preparation for languages, that’s one reason I posted this. If I wait to make my decision about graduate school in history or math any longer, I’d be even more concerned about learning a language. I need to make a decision before I register for fall classes specifically so I can figure out which language to begin work on.

Edited June 1, 2018 by DistantMirror

[rising_star]

17 minutes ago, DistantMirror said:

Regarding preparation for languages, that’s one reason I posted this. If I wait to make my decision about graduate school in history or math any longer, I’d be even more concerned about learning a language. I need to make a decision before I register for fall classes specifically so I can figure out which language to begin work on.

You're not going to be able to figure out all of this without taking courses, in all honesty. I would register for everything (so math, a language, history courses, etc.), with an eye toward seeing how things go and using the drop/add period to figure out which classes you truly want to be in. That's what the drop/add period is for so take advantage of it.

[OHSP]

18 hours ago, DistantMirror said:

So it's not, in and of itself, disqualifying from the top 10-15 schools?

 

I'd be very interested in doing that, actually.

The problem with fixating on "top 10-15" schools is that the supposed ranking of those schools tells you nothing about whether there'll be an appropriate advisor, whether you'll be able to work across disciplines, whether you'll be able to become part of whatever kinds of networks you want to be a part of etc etc etc etc. I got into "top 10-15 schools" but I didn't choose to go to any of them--the school I'm at has had success placing people in the past year but even that is less relevant to me than the fact that I'm actually able to do the kind of not at all traditional, extremely interdisciplinary work that I want to do and that will prepare me to apply for jobs in interdisciplinary departments. Think less about rankings and prestige and more about the kinds of placements grad students at the schools you apply to are getting + about what you're actually interested in in terms of field and approach.

[ExponentialDecay]

OP, bluntly, does mathematics interest you outside of its job prospects? Either as a way of thinking or as a way to answer questions that you're interested in? I don't think it's difficult to know whether you enjoy math, regardless of how much higher-level math you've taken, because you either enjoy thinking through problems in a logical and abstract way or you don't. 

It's definitely possible to develop a lot of depth in both mathematical and language training (hello, yours truly), but the feasibility of this project depends on how prepared you are when you come in and the course structure at your undergrad. 

[psstein]

4 hours ago, OHSP said:

The problem with fixating on "top 10-15" schools is that the supposed ranking of those schools tells you nothing about whether there'll be an appropriate advisor, whether you'll be able to work across disciplines, whether you'll be able to become part of whatever kinds of networks you want to be a part of etc etc etc etc. I got into "top 10-15 schools" but I didn't choose to go to any of them--the school I'm at has had success placing people in the past year but even that is less relevant to me than the fact that I'm actually able to do the kind of not at all traditional, extremely interdisciplinary work that I want to do and that will prepare me to apply for jobs in interdisciplinary departments. Think less about rankings and prestige and more about the kinds of placements grad students at the schools you apply to are getting + about what you're actually interested in in terms of field and approach.

When I say "top 10 or 15," I mean by concrete metrics like placement/faculty/etc. The US News and World Report rankings are totally useless.

[OHSP]

2 hours ago, psstein said:

When I say "top 10 or 15," I mean by concrete metrics like placement/faculty/etc. The US News and World Report rankings are totally useless.

Definitely--and, sorry, I didn't mean that to be picky re your advice, I just noticed this 10-15 thing pop up in @DistantMirror's comments and wanted to warn that without having thought specifically about field etc it's pretty much impossible to know what your own personal top 10-15 options should be. 

[Boolakanaka]

@DistantMirror Two biggest criteria for law are GPA and LSAT, and this is especially true for T14 schools. I have served on admission committees at two law schools (both more or less top 40 schools). For the tippy top schools, YLS, HLS, Stanford, 170 plus is the norm on the LSAT.....and many bring significant prior careers to the table (I know of both Pulitzer Prize winners and Generals), but many do as well.

[psstein]

6 hours ago, OHSP said:

Definitely--and, sorry, I didn't mean that to be picky re your advice, I just noticed this 10-15 thing pop up in @DistantMirror's comments and wanted to warn that without having thought specifically about field etc it's pretty much impossible to know what your own personal top 10-15 options should be. 

Absolutely, the US News and World Report rankings are adequate for a very general overview of which universities have well-regarded departments in certain fields. However, they have major flaws which make them unsuitable for anything beyond a 10,000 foot view.

[AfricanusCrowther]

8 hours ago, psstein said:

Absolutely, the US News and World Report rankings are adequate for a very general overview of which universities have well-regarded departments in certain fields. However, they have major flaws which make them unsuitable for anything beyond a 10,000 foot view.

NYU is a great example of why applicants need to do their own placement research (to the extent that’s possible) before crossing any school off their list. Their USNWR ranking is inexplicable. Same with Duke.

Edited June 3, 2018 by AfricanusCrowther

[historygeek]

I'm kind of in the same boat. I'm a rising senior, applying to graduate programs in the fall. I have a 3.45 overall, a 3.85 in history and a 3.68 in Italian (my secondary major). From what people on this forum and my faculty mentor (a Michigan grad) have told me, your GPA doesn't matter too much as long as you're above the 3.0 requirement. Find faculty members at universities you want to apply to and go from there. I've tried to find multiple faculty members at the schools I'm applying to! 

You seem to have a lot of different interests, which are all pretty broad and have a lot of existing scholarship already. What kinds of things are you interested within those broad topics? This was one of the things that I really struggled with, and it took me until recently to discern what I'm really interested in. I had interest in early modern Italy, the Balkans, medieval Russia, and modern Italian history before realizing I'm interested in modern American immigration history and a transnational comparison. Like @rising_star pointed out, language experience is helpful. Since my main focus has been Italy and Italian-Americans, I've been able to use the Italian that I started taking as a freshman, but since I'm considering expanding to Mediterranean immigrants, I've started to try to get experience in Greek. 

By the way, if you're interested in public history, Loyola Chicago has a funded MA in Public History. It's not a top 10 program, but the funded MA could help you discern what you want to do (of course, there are other funded programs in history. Fordham University in the Bronx, for example). Good luck, and if you want to chat/vent to someone in the same boat, feel free to message me! 

[psstein]

4 hours ago, AfricanusCrowther said:

NYU is a great example of why applicants need to do their own placement research (to the extent that’s possible) before crossing any school off their list. Their USNWR ranking is inexplicable. Same with Duke.

Do you think they're too high or too low?

Just looking at the rankings, my gut reaction is that Cornell, Hopkins, and maybe UNC/UCLA are rated too high in view of placement, and that Penn is somewhat underrated. I know that Hopkins HoS, which has some very good faculty, does not have particularly good placement.