Quiet/Shy/Socially Anxious in Academia

[MindOverMatter]

Hello everyone! I'm feeling a bit low tonight and thought I would reach out to the kind people of the Grad Cafe :)

Today, a fellow lab member mentioned I am "so quiet." She mentioned a few other things related to my quietness, but long story short, I found this really disheartening, as I am overcoming social anxiety, and the past few months (and the past couple of weeks especially) have personally felt really triumphant as I was so much more vocal in lab, class, and in social situations. I honestly thought I got over my social anxiety recently, and someone pointing out my quietness today really gutted me.

I'm sure my peeps who are likewise shy, socially anxious, or simply trait introverted, are tired of their quietness being pointed out to them. My questions for the crowd are:

(1) How do you respond when someone points out you are quiet? I never understood why people are comfortable pointing this out to someone. Someone's quietness may be characteristic or something they are trying to work on, and I do not know why people think it is helpful or worthwhile to point out someone's quietness to them.

(2) For my friends that are shy, how are you coping with this in academia, where there is pressure to present confidently, competently and consistently? I think I have the competence bit down, but its the confidence that I am working on. I'm in research because I love it, but secondary skills, like presenting, do not come naturally to me. I am working on it. I'd love to hear anyone else's thoughts, struggles, etc.

While there are a lot of people who are both strong researchers and have the gift of gab, I suspect academia also attracts a lot of us brainy people who haven't quite mastered communication, or are a bit eccentric, or whatever it may be :) I hope I'm not alone! Would love to hear from anyone who shares in the struggle, or kind folk in general with a sympathetic word. Thanks, all!

[feralgrad]

I'm not in grad school yet, but this has been on my mind a lot lately. My quietness seems to come off as a lack of interest in other people, which is not ideal for writing workshops... I don't often get "you're so quiet," but I've gotten a lot of "I thought you hated me"/"I was afraid of you." Not sure why people think that's a nice thing to say, either! I haven't found a good solution for this yet, so I'll be keeping an eye on this thread.

Anyway, I'm sorry your colleague made you feel that way. I think outgoing people simply don't realize how hurtful those comments can be. That said, one person's evaluation doesn't negate your progress. If you feel like you're starting to overcome your shyness, you're probably right; it may just take a while before other people can see it.

[MindOverMatter]

@feralgrad Thanks for the kind words! ? This helps and I hope once you're in grad school, the journey goes smoothly! Best of luck.

[mariya_gor]

Hey, just wanted to say that I relate to your post a lot. First of all, people making this sort of comments are simply impolite and ignorant, I've come to the conclusion it's best to just ignore them and focus on your progress. Which sounds amazing on your part! Progress is not a linear thing, so just celebrate and concentrate on your achievements, how ever small they might seem at first. 

I feel like the more effort you put into it, the better results you get. 

I've also been this awkward, too silent type in my undergrad time, but presenting came more easily because I just wore this self-confident mask for a certain amount of time. I'm not sure this will work for you, but you can try to practice some power poses before your speech or presentation to set the mood, and then just fake it from there, no other way around it. ? I've recently watched Ted Talk by Maisie Williams and as confident as she seems, she still had her hands shaking slightly throughout the whole thing. 

So yeah, we're not alone in this, and good luck to you in your progress! 

[nimsaj95]

I feel this. I also am not in grad school yet, but as a shy/quiet person, the thing that scares me the most is the broad task of "networking". This is obviously imperative in academia, and I've personally been told by a mentor academia may not be for me if I find it difficult to make connections and begin collaborations. 

I don't have any answers. I think people pointing it out comes from a genuine place of trying to include someone who hasn't made their voice heard, but it is incredibly embarrassing and hurtful. Growing up, when I got singled out for being quiet (or worse, classmates finally realizing I was in their class at the end of the school year) I would get so angry and upset. At this point, I've realized it's okay to be this way and that I don't need to demand attention to feel worthy. 

Hoping to get some tips from this thread too!

[feralgrad]

7 minutes ago, nimsaj95 said:

I think people pointing it out comes from a genuine place of trying to include someone who hasn't made their voice heard, but it is incredibly embarrassing and hurtful.

This is a really good point. While it can come off as mean, I would guess that your colleague said you're quiet because they want to hear you talk more. They probably think you're smart.

Edited April 3, 2019 by feralgrad

[Teaching Faculty Wannabe]

10 hours ago, MindOverMatter said:

(1) How do you respond when someone points out you are quiet? I never understood why people are comfortable pointing this out to someone. Someone's quietness may be characteristic or something they are trying to work on, and I do not know why people think it is helpful or worthwhile to point out someone's quietness to them.

(2) For my friends that are shy, how are you coping with this in academia, where there is pressure to present confidently, competently and consistently? I think I have the competence bit down, but its the confidence that I am working on. I'm in research because I love it, but secondary skills, like presenting, do not come naturally to me. I am working on it. I'd love to hear anyone else's thoughts, struggles, etc.

I have social anxiety, which has been seen as shy or timid by others. For the longest time, I thought I was shy and/or timid, and people viewed this as either me not liking them, or thinking I am better than me, or just a weirdo, I guess. It also doesn't help that I am an introvert. So not only do I not like talking in front of crowds or strangers, but I only really like talking to certain people and get tired easily when I have to interact with people for long periods of time.

(1) In the past, when someone says this to me, I usually just smiled at them and shrugged it off externally. Internally, I was questioning why they told me that. Was it a good or bad thing that they told me that? Should I talk more? If so, then what do I talk about? It was a vicious cycle and I noticed that my brain still does that sometimes. Now, when someone points this out, I either say something like "I am an introverted person" or "I am not a very talkative person. I'd rather listen." Sometimes I'll  tell people I am comfortable relieving this information to that I have social anxiety and sometimes talking just FEELS TO HARD TO DO. People do sometimes find these responses weird, but at least I am telling them the truth and not hiding my feelings like I used to. You can't really control how people react, but it's better to be honest with them (to the extent you are comfortable with).

(2) I am not a PhD student yet (I will be starting this fall), but whenever I had to present during my undergrad, it was really hard. Hours and days up to the time I had to present something (a PPT project to my class, senior design updates to my advisors, poster presentations, etc), I would get super nervous and anxious to the point where I wouldn't eat, I felt like I was going to get sick, and I couldn't breathe well. What usually helps with me during those times is many things. Drinking lots of water. The water at least keeps you hydrated and flushes some of the stress hormone from your body (Make sure to go to the bathroom beforehand though, haha). It also keeps your mouth ready to talk. I hate when I talk and I start smacking because my mouth is dry due to my nervousness. Sometimes walking outside and chewing gum helps. If I am presenting with group members I trust, I am fully honest with them about my anxiety and I have honestly been lucky in them supporting me and making sure I am okay before presenting. Additionally, you have to stay realistic. You might mess up a few times during your talk or presentation, but try to breathe, take a small few second break during the messed up part to recollect your thoughts, and continue on anything your brain grabs related to your topic. When I met my future research advisor at a school visit, I was honest with them about my social anxiety and wanting to improve my presentation skills. They were totally understanding and told me that they would help me learn how to control my stage fright and find ways I can present better. Sometimes you just have to challenge yourself. One of the scariest things I have ever done was give a speech at my departmental graduation. I was asked by my classmates to do it. I really wanted to say no, but doing it would show my anxiety who's boss. To this day, I can't watch the recording of it. I stumbled during a part of it, and even said that I was a very nervous person, but people ended up liking it in the end. I felt like they could understand my nervousness. It probably helped that I had few jokes  in it (that actually made people laugh, say what??).

I am not sure all of these things are useful to everyone and I am definitely still figuring out how to cope with social anxiety and being introverted in academia. But being honest with yourself and those around you feels key or else people will assume things about you and you might start overthinking too much. Also, as shown through this forum, there are other people out there that are dealing with similar things as you. You are able to connect with others through these circumstances that feel like a flaw or disadvantage. Good luck and I look forward to what others say! Thanks for starting this!

[Teaching Faculty Wannabe]

Also, one thing I realized: As a women of color in science and engineering, I felt this pressure to put myself out there more. I know this isn't that great of a feeling because I feel like I have to work harder than other students to get the same results, but I have noticed that it has made me more outspoken over time. During various internships, I've had to interact and collaborate with various people. Because I didn't want to look a like a slacker, I pushed my anxiety aside, put my foot down, and just talked to them about whatever I had to say (a problem with lab equipment, an idea on the project I was working on, etc). I do believe a lot of my feelings to challenge my social anxiety stem from being a minority. I just thought this was an interesting realization I had. I am not sure if anyone else can relate.

[DRMF]

I will have to apologize first, if any part of my response comes off as insensitive. Perhaps it's because you are both quiet (neutral) and not the most comfortable with social occasions (a potentially negative thing), that you took her comment on the former to be about the latter?

I'm generally an outgoing person, and I've never thought saying "you're quiet" has a negative connotation to it. It just sounds like a neutral comment, unless the context indicates that the person saying this meant it as a negative thing. To me it's not inherently linked to a lack of confidence or social anxiety (although I understand that many who struggle with social interactions/public speaking will tend to be less talkative). Rather, quietness could mean that you're simply comfortable enough with your presence, and don't feel the need to talk to avoid "awkward silence". Or that you like to observe/listen carefully and think deeply before responding (thus someone might notice you being quiet and point it out as an invitation for you to voice your opinion). Or that you carry a serene "air". So while I don't usually feel I need to point out someone's quietness to them, I wouldn't expect anyone to take it negatively if I do. (I've also met new friends who initially thought I was shy and tried to strike a conversation with me, presumably to ease my nerves around strangers; I thought it was a sweet gesture, though not really necessary in that instant.)

And I will admit that, since social interactions or public speaking doesn't really stress me out personally, I can be slow on picking up that someone is feeling uneasy (it's jut not the first thing that comes to mind - I'd first suspect they're feeling physically unwell before realizing, oh, they're just shy.) While your feelings of being hurt or embarrassed are surely valid, it may make it easier for you as well if you don't assume the comment was made with any ill intention. Just as public speaking doesn't come naturally to you, for some other people, sensing someone else's uneasiness or empathizing with how you would receive their comments doesn't come naturally to them. It might help to simply let them know that you're not the most talkative person, if you're comfortable saying so.

[Psyhopeful]

First of all, if the person said this to you in a way that was obviously meant to be negative then that person is a) an asshole, and b) probably has some issues of their own that makes them take issue with your silence. I think most people in general say things like this because they genuinely want to know what you think about something. People who don't speak up a lot tend to seem "mysterious" and for many people that allows them to project their own ideas onto what is behind the mystery. Sometimes, they associate negative things that are entirely unrelated to you. It's hard, but unless these negative things are actually detrimental to your career, you should try to let them roll off you.

I am personally a sort of weird hybrid of socially anxious introvert who is also not afraid to speak up for myself. I think the second part comes with age. One thing that I find helps me to speak up when necessary is being really prepared. I don't get (very) anxious doing public speaking if I know what I'm talking about, but when I have to speak off the cuff I have issues. Even when off the cuff is like doing that horrible "introduce yourself to the group" thing. So, I guess my advice as far as academic stuff goes is to practice, practice, practice. I'm not in grad school yet, so take this for what its worth, but I would say even when it comes to lab meetings or seminars, maybe think ahead and make some notes for yourself about things you might speak about, practice saying them before you go. I think the more you do speak up and people appreciate what you have to say, the more that will build your confidence as well.

[Teaching Faculty Wannabe]

22 minutes ago, DRMF said:

I'm generally an outgoing person, and I've never thought saying "you're quiet" has a negative connotation to it. It just sounds like a neutral comment, unless the context indicates that the person saying this meant it as a negative thing. To me it's not inherently linked to a lack of confidence or social anxiety (although I understand that many who struggle with social interactions/public speaking will tend to be less talkative). Rather, quietness could mean that you're simply comfortable enough with your presence, and don't feel the need to talk to avoid "awkward silence". Or that you like to observe/listen carefully and think deeply before responding (thus someone might notice you being quiet and point it out as an invitation for you to voice your opinion). Or that you carry a serene "air". So while I don't usually feel I need to point out someone's quietness to them, I wouldn't expect anyone to take it negatively if I do. (I've also met new friends who initially thought I was shy and tried to strike a conversation with me, presumably to ease my nerves around strangers; I thought it was a sweet gesture, though not really necessary in that instant.)

This is an interesting point of view. I never thought of this way because when someone says "You're quiet", my brain automatically goes into overthink mode and only things of negatives. I think it worse when someone says "you're being so quiet" and "you're too quiet" versus "you're quiet" though, but they all still produce the same underlying feeling of anxiety in me. I think this is where clarification or rephrasing is important. If someone is being silent and you want them to contribute, you could say something like "I would love to hear your thoughts on this". Or when someone says this and means it as more of a compliment in the sense they are comfortable with silence or something of that sort, stating those things in addition would be great because otherwise people could react to that saying a lot differently than you think they will. I really appreciate your thoughts on this matter and I think it is interesting how people can view "you're quiet" in different ways.

[Teaching Faculty Wannabe]

19 minutes ago, Psyhopeful said:

I am personally a sort of weird hybrid of socially anxious introvert who is also not afraid to speak up for myself. I think the second part comes with age. One thing that I find helps me to speak up when necessary is being really prepared. I don't get (very) anxious doing public speaking if I know what I'm talking about, but when I have to speak off the cuff I have issues. Even when off the cuff is like doing that horrible "introduce yourself to the group" thing. So, I guess my advice as far as academic stuff goes is to practice, practice, practice. I'm not in grad school yet, so take this for what its worth, but I would say even when it comes to lab meetings or seminars, maybe think ahead and make some notes for yourself about things you might speak about, practice saying them before you go. I think the more you do speak up and people appreciate what you have to say, the more that will build your confidence as well.

I agree with this. Practice for me as also been very helpful. It doesn't get rid of my anxiety, but it can help decrease it some. I also dislike the "introduce yourself to the group" thing so much that I have memorized what to say for that so I don't get caught off guard by it now.

[cyborg213]

11 hours ago, MindOverMatter said:

I honestly thought I got over my social anxiety recently, and someone pointing out my quietness today really gutted me.

If the person was obviously not being an asshole, and there was a kind tone in their comment, then I would think that the very fact that you were more open and vocal made this person approach and try to start a conversation with you at a more personal level. This might have been unconsciously, of course, but regardless of the content of their message, I'd say that this could be taken as evidence of you overcoming your social anxiety. 

[DRMF]

2 hours ago, IceCream & MatSci said:

This is an interesting point of view. I never thought of this way because when someone says "You're quiet", my brain automatically goes into overthink mode and only things of negatives. I think it worse when someone says "you're being so quiet" and "you're too quiet" versus "you're quiet" though, but they all still produce the same underlying feeling of anxiety in me. I think this is where clarification or rephrasing is important. If someone is being silent and you want them to contribute, you could say something like "I would love to hear your thoughts on this". Or when someone says this and means it as more of a compliment in the sense they are comfortable with silence or something of that sort, stating those things in addition would be great because otherwise people could react to that saying a lot differently than you think they will. I really appreciate your thoughts on this matter and I think it is interesting how people can view "you're quiet" in different ways.

I think this is all good advice, for those of us who aren't typically quiet ourselves. One difficulty, though, is that the comment itself is likely just a remark on something a bit unexpected - as in, I noticed this person has been quiet today / hasn't really talked (to me) much for the few weeks or months I've known them. Do they dislike me? Are they feeling uncomfortable/stressed/sad, having a difficult time in life? Or is it just who they are and they're perfectly happy this way? Are they in need of me actively reaching out to them? Are they baking an idea in their head, and not sure whether/how to say it? Because I have no idea why, I can't jump straight to "hey do you need help?" or "yo do you have an issue with me?" or "wow I admire your calm disposition." So I guess I'll just put it out there, and hope their reaction will clarify it. (And because I'm not the most emotionally aware, I could have exaggerated my surprise a bit too much...)

I guess what I'm trying to say is, there's ambiguity on both ends of this interaction - for the person making the comment, it's unclear why someone is being quiet and what action (if any) would be appropriate, while for the person receiving the comment, it's unclear whether the remark is meant as a compliment, a complaint, an invitation or something else (and as you said, someone who's already anxious will likely take it for the worse). So I agree, one should try to be careful and make their (friendly) intentions clear when commenting on someone else's behavior. We should all try to operate the best we can with imperfect information.

Also, thanks for making this post! I learned quite a bit reading through your and others' experiences.

Edited April 3, 2019 by DRMF

[MindOverMatter]

4 hours ago, DRMF said:

[...] So while I don't usually feel I need to point out someone's quietness to them, I wouldn't expect anyone to take it negatively if I do

[...] Just as public speaking doesn't come naturally to you, for some other people, sensing someone else's uneasiness or empathizing with how you would receive their comments doesn't come naturally to them. It might help to simply let them know that you're not the most talkative person, if you're comfortable saying so.

Everyone, thanks for the kind words and all your thoughtful comments! Wish I could "like" them all - but I guess there is a daily limit. I really appreciate everyone's thoughts and this has been very helpful.

@DRMF, You raise some noteworthy points. I appreciate that you prefaced your note with apologies about it being potentially insensitive, and by doing so, already reveal that you are being sensitive. I thought your response was very thoughtful. I do think you are right that there are many people who will comment on quietness without ill intent and with little empathy for how it may be received.

For people reading who may comment on someone's quietness, I do want to invite them to maybe exercise a bit more empathy in considering why a well-intentioned comment could also be hurtful. Chances are, the person who is told they are quiet have often been told this throughout life, and truth be told, this can be tiring. Also, goading someone to be more talkative in the moment more often than not just adds pressure by putting a spotlight on the person and might further inhibit them. I cannot speak for everyone who is quiet, but based on my experience and in knowing people with my temperament, most often the most compassionate way to treat people who are quiet is just to let them be and let them speak if they are so moved. Extraverts are not necessarily doing a quiet person a "favor" by putting quiet people on the spot. This assumes they need/want to express themselves in the same way as more vocal people do.

That being said, shy people and introverts cannot expect to manage how people will receive them or treat them, and in the end, we do have to manage our own responses to people's comments, ill-intentioned or not. DRMF, I also like that you point out that there is ambiguity in both sides of the exchange, and appreciate your note in your second post which invites everyone to "operate the best we can with imperfect information." This is a very good way to move forward

Edited April 3, 2019 by MindOverMatter
typo

[Teaching Faculty Wannabe]

3 hours ago, DRMF said:

I think this is all good advice, for those of us who aren't typically quiet ourselves. One difficulty, though, is that the comment itself is likely just a remark on something a bit unexpected - as in, I noticed this person has been quiet today / hasn't really talked (to me) much for the few weeks or months I've known them. Do they dislike me? Are they feeling uncomfortable/stressed/sad, having a difficult time in life? Or is it just who they are and they're perfectly happy this way? Are they in need of me actively reaching out to them? Are they baking an idea in their head, and not sure whether/how to say it? Because I have no idea why, I can't jump straight to "hey do you need help?" or "yo do you have an issue with me?" or "wow I admire your calm disposition." So I guess I'll just put it out there, and hope their reaction will clarify it. (And because I'm not the most emotionally aware, I could have exaggerated my surprise a bit too much...)

I guess what I'm trying to say is, there's ambiguity on both ends of this interaction - for the person making the comment, it's unclear why someone is being quiet and what action (if any) would be appropriate, while for the person receiving the comment, it's unclear whether the remark is meant as a compliment, a complaint, an invitation or something else (and as you said, someone who's already anxious will likely take it for the worse). So I agree, one should try to be careful and make their (friendly) intentions clear when commenting on someone else's behavior. We should all try to operate the best we can with imperfect information.

Also, thanks for making this post! I learned quite a bit reading through your and others' experiences.

This is a good point, actually. I guess I was just looking at it from the point of view of the person who is quiet and/or socially anxious, but interactions are a two way street and being considerate is important for both parties. I guess both people should be more clear about their actions or lack their of in best way they can under the circumstances. Figuring this out can be quite difficult and maybe awkward, but I think it would make both people feel more comfortable with each other.

[Anxiously Hopeful]

I just cannot wrap my head around the fact that why staying quiet is so stigmatized. Since childhood, I have been hearing words like shy, quiet, and timid to describe my personality. Even in college, while participating in my group research projects, I was considered to be a listener and not a contributor. Why is it so troublesome for people to understand that quietness does not mean a person is uninterested or afraid of presenting his/her own ideas but instead trying to make sense of what others are suggesting and not just mindlessly blabbering away. 

I think it is important to remember that everyone cannot be impressed. I have tried being an extrovert and within an hour I was mentally drained. The best in me came out when I was being me and worthy people- like my thesis advisor and not that one classmate who is not even in touch with me today- noticed and appreciated it and that meant the most to me.

 

[Teaching Faculty Wannabe]

7 hours ago, Anxiously Hopeful said:

I just cannot wrap my head around the fact that why staying quiet is so stigmatized. Since childhood, I have been hearing words like shy, quiet, and timid to describe my personality. Even in college, while participating in my group research projects, I was considered to be a listener and not a contributor. Why is it so troublesome for people to understand that quietness does not mean a person is uninterested or afraid of presenting his/her own ideas but instead trying to make sense of what others are suggesting and not just mindlessly blabbering away.

I think in academia, people feel like they have to constantly be spewing ideas because then they get left behind. Research can be so demanding and competitive, and people who like to listen can be at a disadvantage in those sorts of environments because they don't feel the need to express their opinions, ideas, and such all the time. It's kind like how people who are night owls are at a disadvantage to the 8 to 5 work hours. It doesn't usually work well for them, but you have to learn to either adapt to it or change it so everyone feels comfortable. It is difficult.

Also, people can feel awkward in silence and feel the need to talk so they don't seem boring to another person. I have felt this pressure myself. I have started conversations about things I could care less about because I felt like I had to talk in order to get rid of the awkwardness. Now that I am older, I think a little bit of awkwardness is good.

[_angua]

I've had social anxiety since I was a teenager, so getting through my undergrad was definitely a challenge but I also think I've grown a lot and I feel more confident about handling it in grad school.

1) When someone points out that I'm being quiet I try to say something like 'I'm enjoying listening to everyone' or 'It helps me think'. Something I sometimes try to do is comment and synthesize what I've been hearing from other people saying so they know I'm actually engaged. In general this has been less of an issue for me over time though, I'm also a very direct person and don't tend to hold back my true opinion especially in groups/conversations where I'm more comfortable so I think I've found a pretty good balance.

2) Unfortunately I've found that academia is not very accommodating of introverts or people with social anxiety (profs would often say essentially I had to 'just get over it' if I ever wanted a job - ironically bad advice coming from psychology profs IMO). Introversion and reflection were not really rewarded for most of my undergrad. Presenting and public speaking I think gets easier over time and with practice. I volunteered with a campus women's centre where I would present workshops or discussions with smaller groups of students and I found that really helped me become more comfortable with talking to people and develop a more conversational style of presenting that feels much more natural and makes me less anxious. Really knowing your material will help with your confidence too; I've felt a lot less jitters presenting about my research because I'm so familiar with and care about the topic (I've actually won awards presenting which I never would have imagined when I started!) Knowing the topic also helps me speak more conversationally about it which I find helps me to avoid getting stuck compared to speaking to a very formal script.

I still have problems with my anxiety sometimes though, especially with all the challenges and new experiences that come with grad school. But you're obviously very capable and resilient to have made it so far, and I hope that you can find an environment where you can communicate your love of research in a way that is comfortable for you and becomes fun to do!

[Cheshire_Cat]

Alcohol. Lots of alcohol...

Just kidding! Haha! Don't do that!

I am a Ph.D student, going into my fifth year, and I am very quiet and self-contained. I barely even spoke to my family until I was almost 20. People don't point out that I'm quiet much anymore, but they used to do so all the time. I would just smile, because its true, and I don't think it is a bad thing, most of the time.

My heart still races when I raise my hand in workshops. It's been four years, you would think I'd get over it by now, but I haven't. One thing that has helped is that my dissertation chair also has introvert tendencies. He also doesn't speak up in workshops often. I was in his presentation at a major conference once and he barely looked up from the floor the entire time and his arms were crossed the whole time. But he has coauthors who he works with and he is very well respected in the community.  So I know if he can do it, I can do it too.

As for conferences and other situations when you need to interact with people, the key to being interesting is to be interested. I am a great listener. I do go up and introduce myself to people, and then I mostly listen to them talk, with a few interjections so they know I'm interested in what they are saying. And I almost always have people to talk/listen to because of it.

Overall, give yourself a break. Try not to worry as much about sounding stupid or looking goofy. And realize that you aren't perfect, but no one expects you to be. But don't give up on trying to better yourself. It isn't a paradox to love yourself for who you are while also realizing that you have areas you can improve on in your life. And there are very few jobs that don't require communication with other people, so it is important to try to do as well as you can at it.

[PokePsych]

 

 

 

23 hours ago, Cheshire_Cat said:

My heart still races when I raise my hand in workshops. It's been four years, you would think I'd get over it by now, but I haven't. 

This is also something for more 'loud' people sometimes thoguh