MPA/MPP/MPS Applications, Fall 2020 (Canada)

[Paulcg87]

3 hours ago, Cerebral93 said:

Curiously do you know if Waterloo's co-op has opportunities for policy analysis within large corps or tech/STEM companies?

Got accepted into U of T and Waterloo and now trying to make a decision while trying to think which will minimize living costs. I wish Waterloo gave some scholarships or funding... U of T while extremely cheap is giving 3k.

For policy students? Not that I'm aware of but it's definitely possible. Waterloo does typically have some good internships/co-op's available for policy students but those typically only go to the top 10-20% of students in each cohort. As far as getting a job in Silicon Valley or San Francisco. the problem is that you are competing with public policy students from US tech schools like UC Berkeley; Berkeley's Goldman School of Public Policy is one of the best policy analysis schools in the world and Waterloo isn't known for the strength of its policy program. Waterloo can compete with UToronto and many US schools in CS/Engineering fields because it is known for that, but it's not known for social sciences, either in global social science rankings or by reputation. 

Frankly, if you want a co-op in policy, UToronto or Carleton are better schools than Waterloo. UT and Carleton both offer very good policy internships (UT requires an internship/co-op just like Waterloo) and Carleton has incredible connections in Ottawa. I would say if you want a government policy position go to Carleton but if you want a consulting/private sector policy job, go to UT Munk. It has a significantly better reputation than Waterloo, it's a larger program with more networking, and as I've mentioned in the past, no one in the policy jobs I worked in (one of the big 4 firms and a non-profit) in the USA have even heard of Waterloo; Americans think "Waterloo" is referring to the Napoleonic battle in Europe, not a university in Canada. Sad but true. Outside of STEM, and for social sciences in particular, UToronto unequivocally has the best graduate programs in Canada and at least the rest of the policy/IR world has heard of UT. 

[Paulcg87]

1 hour ago, BTF said:

If you are trying to minimize costs why are you considering going to the most expensive program in one of, if not the most expensive cities in the country?

This is a fair point. I normally do not ever recommend that people go into debt for a degree just based on the name on the diploma unless they have very good, specific reasons for it. In your case, if you plan on staying in Canada for the rest of your career and you know it, go wherever you can study for the cheapest. Rankings don't matter much here in Canada and few employers care if you went to Waterloo, Toronto, McGill, etc.,  as long as you did well and got some good experience. With that said, if you know you want to work in policy abroad, particularly in Europe, the USA or Asia, then you need to go to the best ranked school you can if you can afford it. The unfortunate reality most Canadians don't realize is that in the social sciences/policy, rankings are actually very important in the USA and Asia in particular. Name brand recognition, strength of alumni network and ability to network matter more than the justification that you went to a lower ranked school to save money. This mentality is probably part of why Americans are so heavily indebted with student loans, but it is what it is. 

If you want to work in the USA or Asia, go to the best ranked school you can. In your case, that is UofT, which is objectively ranked higher both globally and in social science rankings by literally every international ranking service. As far as US News & World Report, THE, QS, etc., are concerned, Waterloo isn't even in the top 3 in Canada (typically UofT, UBC and McGill). I've spent 8 years working in policy and IR in the USA, Asia and Canada after getting my undergrad from UBC and my master's degree in IR from MIT. @Cerebral93 My advice is if you want to stay in Canada, save your money and go wherever is cheapest, but if you even want the option of working in the USA/East Asia, you're better off going wherever has the most international prestige and name brand recognition, and in this case, it's UofT. I'll add that UofT's MPP degree is a pure policy degree that emulates the quantitative/data driven policy analysis programs at UC Berkeley and Harvard Kennedy School; this is why, like most American MPP's, it's two years, there's a summer internship requirement and you take more quant/data/econ courses than other hybrid MPPA/MPS degrees. It's definitely more expensive, but you get what you pay for. 

Edited April 8, 2020 by Paulcg87

[Cerebral93]

45 minutes ago, Paulcg87 said:

This is a fair point. I normally do not ever recommend that people go into debt for a degree just based on the name on the diploma unless they have very good, specific reasons for it. In your case, if you plan on staying in Canada for the rest of your career and you know it, go wherever you can study for the cheapest. Rankings don't matter much here in Canada and few employers care if you went to Waterloo, Toronto, McGill, etc.,  as long as you did well and got some good experience. With that said, if you know you want to work in policy abroad, particularly in Europe, the USA or Asia, then you need to go to the best ranked school you can if you can afford it. The unfortunate reality most Canadians don't realize is that in the social sciences/policy, rankings are actually very important in the USA and Asia in particular. Name brand recognition, strength of alumni network and ability to network matter more than the justification that you went to a lower ranked school to save money. This mentality is probably part of why Americans are so heavily indebted with student loans, but it is what it is. 

If you want to work in the USA or Asia, go to the best ranked school you can. In your case, that is UofT, which is objectively ranked higher both globally and in social science rankings by literally every international ranking service. As far as US News & World Report, THE, QS, etc., are concerned, Waterloo isn't even in the top 3 in Canada (typically UofT, UBC and McGill). I've spent 8 years working in policy and IR in the USA, Asia and Canada after getting my undergrad from UBC and my master's degree in IR from MIT. @Cerebral93 My advice is if you want to stay in Canada, save your money and go wherever is cheapest, but if you even want the option of working in the USA/East Asia, you're better off going wherever has the most international prestige and name brand recognition, and in this case, it's UofT. I'll add that UofT's MPP degree is a pure policy degree that emulates the quantitative/data driven policy analysis programs at UC Berkeley and Harvard Kennedy School; this is why, like most American MPP's, it's two years, there's a summer internship requirement and you take more quant/data/econ courses than other hybrid MPPA/MPS degrees. It's definitely more expensive, but you get what you pay for. 

Thank you for your help! Great insights overall. I'm definitely trying to gauge and leave as many doors open as possible; especially if there's a chance someone may want to work abroad.

[Paulcg87]

32 minutes ago, Cerebral93 said:

Thank you for your help! Great insights overall. I'm definitely trying to gauge and leave as many doors open as possible; especially if there's a chance someone may want to work abroad.

@Cerebral93 I understand. It's a difficult time to be going into this field. I think many Canadians working in international fields are thinking about this right now. No idea how bad the economy will get but if it's anything like what economists predict, we could be in for some economic pain, and if so, the hiring situation will be impacted around the world. During the last recession, I went to the US specifically because it was easier at the time to get an entry level private sector policy job in the US as a Canadian than it was to get a similar job in Canada, mostly because the big 4 and other large consulting firms and non profits employ a lot more people in the US than they do in Canada. And, keep in mind, that was during a recession (2008-2012) that impacted the US a lot more than it impacted Canada.

What we're looking at right now is the possibility of a prolonged global recession. Technically, we're already in it and we have been for about a month. I hope it doesn't last long but who knows how deeply this worldwide shutdown will cut. My experiences from 2008-2012 tell me Canada will take a hit, and the already competitive policy jobs in the private sector will get a lot more competitive. If you have a decade of experience in the field, I don't think you have to worry as much. But if you're relatively new and don't have much professional policy experience, you might want to keep the door open to working abroad for a few years like I did; it might be the easiest/only way to get entry level private sector policy experience over the next few years. 

Edited April 8, 2020 by Paulcg87

[milomars]

10 hours ago, Paulcg87 said:

For policy students? Not that I'm aware of but it's definitely possible. Waterloo does typically have some good internships/co-op's available for policy students but those typically only go to the top 10-20% of students in each cohort. As far as getting a job in Silicon Valley or San Francisco. the problem is that you are competing with public policy students from US tech schools like UC Berkeley; Berkeley's Goldman School of Public Policy is one of the best policy analysis schools in the world and Waterloo isn't known for the strength of its policy program. Waterloo can compete with UToronto and many US schools in CS/Engineering fields because it is known for that, but it's not known for social sciences, either in global social science rankings or by reputation. 

Frankly, if you want a co-op in policy, UToronto or Carleton are better schools than Waterloo. UT and Carleton both offer very good policy internships (UT requires an internship/co-op just like Waterloo) and Carleton has incredible connections in Ottawa. I would say if you want a government policy position go to Carleton but if you want a consulting/private sector policy job, go to UT Munk. It has a significantly better reputation than Waterloo, it's a larger program with more networking, and as I've mentioned in the past, no one in the policy jobs I worked in (one of the big 4 firms and a non-profit) in the USA have even heard of Waterloo; Americans think "Waterloo" is referring to the Napoleonic battle in Europe, not a university in Canada. Sad but true. Outside of STEM, and for social sciences in particular, UToronto unequivocally has the best graduate programs in Canada and at least the rest of the policy/IR world has heard of UT. 

@Paulcg87 where did you get that 10-20% co-op placement figure from. Waterloo has had a 100% co-op placement rate for the MPS program for seven years in a row. 

 

[Paulcg87]

53 minutes ago, milomars said:

@Paulcg87 where did you get that 10-20% co-op placement figure from. Waterloo has had a 100% co-op placement rate for the MPS program for seven years in a row. 

 

You're right, what I thought/meant to say was that the best co-ops/internships in the MPS program go to the top 10-20% of students. I did not mean that 80% of students do not get co-ops. I should have phrased it differently. And in terms of where I'm getting this from, I was told this about a yea ago by a recent Waterloo MPS graduate, so it's as much hearsay as anything else is on here I guess. And it's not terribly surprising; makes sense that only the best students with the best backgrounds get the most competitive co-ops. I believe this is pretty standard in every program. Not every internship/co-op can be ideal. My broader point was that other major graduate policy programs also have an internship/co-op requirement and I'm not sure this should be a deciding factor in which program you choose. I would argue that the program you choose should depend on what it is you want to do and where you want to work.

Simply put, there's a reason Waterloo's program is an MPS and not an MPP. An MPS, like an MPA and MPPA, emphasizes qualitative methods, project management and leadership. Most are one year and are more professional than academic. Many have a capstone rather than a research thesis requirement. This is VERY different from an MPP at the majority of schools in the US and UT Munk's MPP for example. The Munk MPP and several other Canadian MPP's are modeled on US public policy degrees. This model emphasizes quantitative policy analysis and you're usually required to take more courses in statistics/data analytics, research methodology and economics. MPP's are usually two years, with a shorter internship over the summer after the first year, and the degree is typically has either a capstone or a research based thesis, but often times the latter. MPP's are frequently intended to be the research based precursor to the PhD in Public Policy; an MPS or an MPA is typically designed for professional administrators and leaders as a terminal degree, even if it's not used that way. 

So, as I told the op in a PM today after they asked me privately, if you want a public policy degree, go to UT Munk. If you want an administration/global affairs type of degree, go to Waterloo, York, Carleton, et al., but do not confuse an MPP with an MPS, MPA, etc... Additionally, if you plan on staying in Canada, go with whatever is cheapest that you want to do. If you want to leave the door open to work in the USA or Asia, go to a Canadian top 3. Having been in this situation myself a decade ago, and having worked in policy consulting in three countries, my experience has been that many people in the US and Asia haven't even heard of the Canadian top 3, but even fewer have heard of the rest of the institutions in Canada. The big 4 firm I consulted for in the USA cared more about the name on your diploma and ranking/prestige than even GPA. 

[Slothy42]

In case anyone else has applied to the MPP at SFU, I just received a swift rejection ?

[natzb]

Just rejected my offer from U of T. As much as I wanted to go to Munk, I decided against taking on the financial burden/debt esp. considering the health of the economy atm. Accepted Queen’s since its only one year and is half of the cost with the co-op option seeming better for transitioning into the workforce. 

Anyone else feeling a bit anxious about starting in September due to the COVID-19 situation? 

[alexgray]

On 4/11/2020 at 7:01 PM, natzb said:

Just rejected my offer from U of T. As much as I wanted to go to Munk, I decided against taking on the financial burden/debt esp. considering the health of the economy atm. Accepted Queen’s since its only one year and is half of the cost with the co-op option seeming better for transitioning into the workforce. 

Anyone else feeling a bit anxious about starting in September due to the COVID-19 situation? 

So then I guess I'll be seeing you in Queen's! 

And yes, anxious to say the least. I really don't want to do my MPA online lol

[Cerebral93]

On 4/11/2020 at 7:01 PM, natzb said:

Just rejected my offer from U of T. As much as I wanted to go to Munk, I decided against taking on the financial burden/debt esp. considering the health of the economy atm. Accepted Queen’s since its only one year and is half of the cost with the co-op option seeming better for transitioning into the workforce. 

Anyone else feeling a bit anxious about starting in September due to the COVID-19 situation? 

I am also in a similar mindset - with COVID-19 the situation is too unpredictable. I am thinking of trying to defer my acceptance to the following year if possible...

Also, did Munk offer you any funding? The only thing I was offered so far is 3K... I was hoping they'd offer more.

[BTF]

1 hour ago, Cerebral93 said:

I am also in a similar mindset - with COVID-19 the situation is too unpredictable. I am thinking of trying to defer my acceptance to the following year if possible...

Also, did Munk offer you any funding? The only thing I was offered so far is 3K... I was hoping they'd offer more.

They do not offer more, not do they offer TA or RAships with their funding. 10/10

[uwosf2020]

8 hours ago, BTF said:

They do not offer more, not do they offer TA or RAships with their funding. 10/10

They don't offer TA/RA initially because those positions aren't available until 2nd year anyways. I've been talking to a girl who's graduating from Munk this year and she said no one pays the full 19k/yr to go there, there are a lot of scholarships available which make tuition much more manageable.

[BTF]

26 minutes ago, uwosf2020 said:

They don't offer TA/RA initially because those positions aren't available until 2nd year anyways. I've been talking to a girl who's graduating from Munk this year and she said no one pays the full 19k/yr to go there, there are a lot of scholarships available which make tuition much more manageable.

Interesting, that isnt what they told me last year when I asked. Either way, as long as you can cover tuition you are good!

[Cerebral93]

44 minutes ago, uwosf2020 said:

They don't offer TA/RA initially because those positions aren't available until 2nd year anyways. I've been talking to a girl who's graduating from Munk this year and she said no one pays the full 19k/yr to go there, there are a lot of scholarships available which make tuition much more manageable.

On their site, they mention a lot of scholarships in 2nd year. They don't mention much for 1st year, besides the entrance scholarship (and external ones). Was she able to also reduce her tuition in first year?

[beautybaby]

How's everyone feeling about the COVID-19 situation?! I'm super stressed, especially because we have no idea how long this is going to last and there's a good chance we'll all be starting our off our degrees online. Regardless of where you're accepting/attending, has this affected your decision(s) at all?

[Slothy42]

36 minutes ago, beautybaby said:

How's everyone feeling about the COVID-19 situation?! I'm super stressed, especially because we have no idea how long this is going to last and there's a good chance we'll all be starting our off our degrees online. Regardless of where you're accepting/attending, has this affected your decision(s) at all?

I think by September we will start rolling into business-as-usual or at least moving into "normal". Of course that's speculation but I believe we will be in class by September or will only have to do online courses for a very brief amount of time. I'll still be hitting accept on a program for Fall start and go from there ?

[TD1983]

Hey! Folks who've got admits from Queens MPA.. guess that's the only one (1 year) which has a mandatory GRE. I just wanted to know if the Queens MPA is worth for taking the GRE? I am an older prospect with 10 yrs industry exp and going back to GRE would be quite a thing for me (given other 1 years Mcgill Calgary Usask) don't ask for it. Please help.

[Cerebral93]

1 hour ago, TD1983 said:

Hey! Folks who've got admits from Queens MPA.. guess that's the only one (1 year) which has a mandatory GRE. I just wanted to know if the Queens MPA is worth for taking the GRE? I am an older prospect with 10 yrs industry exp and going back to GRE would be quite a thing for me (given other 1 years Mcgill Calgary Usask) don't ask for it. Please help.

I assume this is because your degree is outside of Canada or the US? To me if you have 10 years of experience, I doubt it matters all that much, especially since you already have an abundant network.

[Slycky-J]

Hi there,

Is there any international student like me still waiting to hear from university of Calgary MPP?

[policygal]

Quick update for any McGill MPP applicants: The office is delayed in processing a ton of applications, so many applicants will get acceptance offers after the initial recomendation letter deadline. Should hear from the graduate office in the next couple of weeks  More information should come out tomrw (Thursday), Ill post if I hear anything more. 

Anyone heard anything from uCalgary MPP or uVictoria MPA programs yet?

[anxietypersonified]

On 4/15/2020 at 2:54 PM, policygal said:

Quick update for any McGill MPP applicants: The office is delayed in processing a ton of applications, so many applicants will get acceptance offers after the initial recomendation letter deadline. Should hear from the graduate office in the next couple of weeks  More information should come out tomrw (Thursday), Ill post if I hear anything more. 

Anyone heard anything from uCalgary MPP or uVictoria MPA programs yet?

Hey what do you mean "after the initial recommendation letter deadline"?

[Akvad]

I received offer from McGill.

Waiting for carelton and calgary. Considering the current scenario i am worried should I accept the offer or defer. I will have to be there in Canada by august mid since I am overseas. 

[Slothy42]

Has anyone been accepted into Munk MPP off the waitlist? 

[NoL's2020]

Still waiting to be accepted off the waitlist* at Uoft .... if that is what under review means.

[alexgray]

On 4/20/2020 at 12:25 PM, Slothy42 said:

Has anyone been accepted into Munk MPP off the waitlist? 

 

7 hours ago, NoL's2020 said:

Still waiting to be accepted off the waitlist* at Uoft .... if that is what under review means.

Waiting for that as well. They said round two will be end of April and it's already the 24th. Hopefully we'll know soon!