2021-2022 Application Thread

[honeymoow]

11 hours ago, rash_sulganni said:

I just thought I will check-in and wish everyone applying this year the best of luck! This community was very supportive as I went through this process last year; it helps to know about and connect with others going through the same experience. All the best!!!

The wait is already so difficult! And decisions are usually made available the final week of February, right?

[LatinAmericanFootball]

AFAIK decision timelines vary a lot across universities, from late January until early-mid March. It might be worth checking the previous app cycle threads and see when people reported results from each department, as they seem to release results more or less on the same period every year (for instance, Berkeley seems to always send offers around January 30th-February 1st). Someone also collected this data for most universities on this link: https://imgur.com/a/EuNTB

[rash_sulganni]

1 hour ago, honeymoow said:

The wait is already so difficult! And decisions are usually made available the final week of February, right?

It varies from program to program. Some decisions are made available as early as end of January and others might come in late March or even early April. Hang in there.

[sbidyanta]

Anyone applying to Northwestern and whose recommenders are yet to upload their letters? I have one recommender who still hasn't sent his LoR, and I'm freaking out a bit because the university page states that the deadline for ALL application materials is 10th. Now granted they probably do have an internal grace period for letters of recommendations, but I really don't know how much of a delay they are willing to tolerate. 

[scared_phd]

Hello all, 

I am reapplying to some programs and I noticed my old GRE scores were automatically included in the application. I am retaking the GRE to improve my scores but I couldn't take it early due to numerous reasons which meant I had to submit my applications without the updated scores but the schools I am talking about (e.g. UCSD) just accepted my old scores from the portal and GRE is not flagged as awaiting in my status portal. Should I be worried the admission committee would review my application with my old, not so good scores before I submit my new ones (which should be available by the end of December)? 

[Not_A_Crook]

9 hours ago, sbidyanta said:

Anyone applying to Northwestern and whose recommenders are yet to upload their letters? I have one recommender who still hasn't sent his LoR, and I'm freaking out a bit because the university page states that the deadline for ALL application materials is 10th. Now granted they probably do have an internal grace period for letters of recommendations, but I really don't know how much of a delay they are willing to tolerate. 

I would contact the program if you haven't already and let them know what is happening. Sorry this is happening to you, but I'm sure they have seen this before.

[honeymoow]

3 hours ago, scared_phd said:

Hello all, 

I am reapplying to some programs and I noticed my old GRE scores were automatically included in the application. I am retaking the GRE to improve my scores but I couldn't take it early due to numerous reasons which meant I had to submit my applications without the updated scores but the schools I am talking about (e.g. UCSD) just accepted my old scores from the portal and GRE is not flagged as awaiting in my status portal. Should I be worried the admission committee would review my application with my old, not so good scores before I submit my new ones (which should be available by the end of December)? 

I would assume that they'd consider your application with the old GRE scores; might be worthwhile sending an email asking them to be removed.

[ovejal]

Hi all! First-year PhD student who used the board last year popping in to wish you all good luck. The application process really sucks but I promise you you all will make it through. Make sure you recognize both the benefits and drawbacks of this board - it is great to connect with others going through the same thing as you but make sure you find things to do outside of checking this board, especially once you get to late January/early February. I'm not sure I have much to offer at this point in the process but feel free to shoot me a message if you think I can be of any help. Again, best of luck!

[Theory007]

I'm willing to accept this.

On 12/10/2021 at 3:39 PM, larama said:

Departments that made the GRE optional cited concerns that the costs of the exam ($205) and of test preparation disproportionately affect underserved students. Critics also question what the test scores actually prove.

It certainly is unfair that students with more financial leverage can take the exam several times and those without cannot. But this is not really a fault of the test but that people do not have the same access to it (which is still a problem).

It does not constitute evidence that you can cite a professor or two who says this. There is absolutely no doubt that higher scores on the GRE correlate with ability. Again, it may not be a perfect measure, but the GRE together with other elements of the application gives a pretty good picture of the student.

On 12/10/2021 at 3:39 PM, larama said:

“Studies suggest that GRE scores are not great indicators of graduate-school success and underserve students who cannot afford test prep or to take the exam multiple times,” said Professor Zemer Gitai, former director of graduate studies in the molecular biology department. 

Professor Johannes Haubold, director of graduate studies in the classics department, cited concern “that standardized tests are culturally biased in favor of certain groups, and that they end up testing primarily how good one is at taking tests.” 

Explain to me how the test is culturally biased. Is it that questions are asked in a way that is easier to understand for certain groups of people? You must be implying that the test does not really measure the potential of students such that those who the test is biased against actually do better than the biased test predicts when then go to graduate school. But there is no evidence of this; the GRE predicts extremely well how students do in their grad programs so it's hard to see how it could be culturally biased. Students with low score do worse than students with high scores. I am still not saying that the GRE is the only thing that matters. I'm only saying that it predicts performance and it does.

[Theory007]

On 12/10/2021 at 4:16 PM, Sigaba said:

 

@Theory007, IMO, this topic is too controversial and too important for such broad brush/blanket statements without offers of supporting evidence.  

https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2021-32469-001

https://arxiv.org/abs/2009.14027

If you revisit my original post you will notice that I did not make a blanket statement, but said that some students who do well on the GRE do not succeed in their grad programs and some students who do poorly do succeed. But this does not take away from the general trend that higher GRE scores leads to better grad program performance on average. I looked up the articles you mentioned and there are numerous problems with the first study at least (which is the only one I looked at in more detail).

1. I don't want to go into detail, but using very unsophisticated methods the authors find only partial support only for the hypothesis you put forward.

2. Besides the authors are trying to tease out how a particular GRE cutoff affects different students and finds that since underrepresented students tend to pass the third statistics course at the same rate of students with higher GREQ scores, that the implementation of a GREQ cutoff is barring such underrepresented students who would otherwise have passed that course (with a B).

As you will learn if you enter a graduate program, B is a passing grade in a graduate course but there is much institutional pressure to give students passing grades. Everyone will get at leas a B except if it is completely indisputable that a student will not be able to complete the program. See on page 214: "Of note, all students who fully matriculated from all GRE-Q score groupings passed the statistics courses with a 3.0 (B) or better.". Lol, everyone in the sample got a B or better.

Also note that this does not in any way contradict the fact that students with higher GREQ scores do better. Indeed, students with higher GREQ did better in the mentioned statistics course, i.e. were more likely to get As, and therefore GRE scores do predict performance in terms of grades at least. There really are more things I could say, but at best the study is not inconsistent with what I said earlier.

I would also generally advice against the practice of linking to articles that you either have not read, do not understand, or have not thought about enough to see if they support your point. Indeed, I could also post a bunch of articles below that find the opposite, but it is not - IMO - particularly useful for anyone.

Again, all I am saying is that the GRE correlates with ability, and there is - just like IQ tests predict intelligence - no doubt about it as far as I can tell.

[Sigaba]

2 hours ago, Theory007 said:

As you will learn if you enter a graduate program...

"Some" and "some" are, IMO, dismissive broad brush comments in a discussion like this one. How many is some? Some in what kinds of programs? Yes, I'm aware that there's a lot going on in this topic, which is why I prompted you to not be as glib as you were--and as you continue to be. 

On 12/10/2021 at 11:19 AM, Theory007 said:

This was probably the real reason that they made the GRE optional because anyone who took the test over the past two years could have cheated and probably did. 

On 12/11/2021 at 9:47 AM, LatinAmericanFootball said:

Do you have any evidence to back that up, e.g. people in adcoms saying they don't trust the GRE At Home? I took it at home and know people who took it at home last year, and I can assure you that even if I wanted to cheat (which I obviously did not) it would have been very hard to do so, as ETS protocols are very rigid. In fact, GRE online boards are filled with people that got their tests cancelled because they did something slightly suspicious which the proctors understood as possible cheating even if it wasn't.

I'll rephrase @LatinAmericanFootball's question, which you have chosen to ignore. Do you have the same level of evidence to support this claim as you insist that those who disagree with you provide?

IMO, you're taking an odd tone on this topic, especially given the push back you continue to receive.  It remains interesting that you just don't lay out via references the basis for your understanding of this issue because, apparently, you're busy, but insist that others prove their position to you.

Also, do you bother to read profiles before you post? You question others' reading comprehension but you seem to be challenged by "ABD." But since you went there. Yes, I have been to graduate school. What I found is that "genuinely curious" people do their own research when they encounter positions that differ from their own.

[Theory007]

20 hours ago, Sigaba said:

"Some" and "some" are, IMO, dismissive broad brush comments in a discussion like this one. How many is some? Some in what kinds of programs? Yes, I'm aware that there's a lot going on in this topic, which is why I prompted you to not be as glib as you were--and as you continue to be. 

I'll rephrase @LatinAmericanFootball's question, which you have chosen to ignore. Do you have the same level of evidence to support this claim as you insist that those who disagree with you provide?

IMO, you're taking an odd tone on this topic, especially given the push back you continue to receive.  It remains interesting that you just don't lay out via references the basis for your understanding of this issue because, apparently, you're busy, but insist that others prove their position to you.

Also, do you bother to read profiles before you post? You question others' reading comprehension but you seem to be challenged by "ABD." But since you went there. Yes, I have been to graduate school. What I found is that "genuinely curious" people do their own research when they encounter positions that differ from their own.

All I ever argued is that the GRE is still a relevant factor in current admissions and I asked how the GRE was culturally biased and undermined diversity. You can say that whatever I said is being dismissive and painting with a broad brush, but this is still not a legitimate critique given what I actually said (I don't want to repeat this for the third time here).

Well I replied - just now - to two of the three comments in response to what I said - I'll get to the last one and I'll easily lay out there references.

You may think that I am taking an odd tone on this topic, but why would it matter that I am getting pushback? I actually don't understand this? Should I give in simply because people disagree with me? Regarding the tone, remember that I am merely responding to your accusation that I am taking a glib view when I am obviously not. I am trying to have a conversation about stuff and it is fine - I think - to be direct. And I did not launch accusations your way but responded to what you said. The references you posted still do not support your point. I don't think when people claim that the GRE is biased that I am the one obligated to defend the opposite position. You have to show the evidence for the astonishing idea that it is biased or not correlated with ability. And your evidence does not hold to to scrutiny. I explain in detail why. I don't know why this is so upsetting to you. 

No I did not read your profile and this seems to have offended you lol. I was under the impression that people posting in this thread were people applying in the current year to political science programs. So I made a huge mistake there. But since you are in a grad program, my point about B-grades and ultimately how the article does not go against the view that the GRE correlates with ability should be clear to you. Is it not?

And I still think that when people post "evidence" for something that clearly does not support their position, then it is fair to assume that they either did not read or understand what they presented. Be honest - did you in fact read the article or did you skim the abstract? I'm guessing the latter.

Either way - this is derailing this thread and I suggest that we end our discussion here so people can use this space more productively. The admission process to political science programs continues to be grueling, and I - like many others - are here to help and support the best we can.

[larama]

6 hours ago, Theory007 said:

Students with low score do worse than students with high scores. 

That might only be true for quant and math-related classes.

Edited December 15, 2021 by larama

[Sigaba]

58 minutes ago, Theory007 said:

 

Either way - this is derailing this thread and I suggest that we end our discussion here so people can use this space more productively. The admission process to political science programs continues to be grueling, and I - like many others - are here to help and support the best we can.

Then split it into a separate thread so the conversation you're trying to control can continue. Then you could answer the question posed to you by @LatinAmericanFootball

[Theory007]

2 minutes ago, Sigaba said:

so the conversation you're trying to control can continue.

I honestly have no idea what you mean by this - I am not tying to control any conversation, but I do have an interest in not occupying the thread with this stuff so others can use it as intended. Let's please be done with this. I'll DM @LatinAmericanFootball if he is still interested in an answer but will not otherwise partake in this further.

[Sigaba]

1 minute ago, Theory007 said:

I honestly have no idea what you mean by this - I am not tying to control any conversation, but I do have an interest in not occupying the thread with this stuff so others can use it as intended. Let's please be done with this. I'll DM @LatinAmericanFootball if he is still interested in an answer but will not otherwise partake in this further.

I think that you're gaslighting.

You have no idea of what?

• How to use a moderator's control panel to split a thread?
• How to use the message system to reach out to other moderators to ask how to split a thread?
• How to start a new thread and post a link to it in this one?
• How to go to the Invision Community link that is at the bottom of every page of every thread in every forum at the GradCafe and click the help button?
• How to use Google to search for "Invision forum how to split threads" which leads one here?

@LatinAmericanFootball's question was posed to you in the open to something you posted in the open. Why not answer it in the open as well? You're comfortable calling people you've never met cheaters out in the open but you want to go private when the accused holds you accountable. This is not a good look for the Grad Cafe. 

I think that it's incumbent upon you to answer the question openly for the sake of your personal honor and intellectual integrity to say nothing of your credibility as a moderator. 

Here's the thing. You and no one else started this shitshow by brushing aside concerns about the GRE, some held by actual professional academics who agree that the exam can be useful predictor of performance, and by alleging without proof that many, if not most, of the people who took the GRE at home last two years cheated. (Newer members must be brimming with confidence in this message board knowing that a moderator thinks so highly of them.)

You have deliberately escalated the temperature of this thread with snide comments that reflect a lack of situational awareness. You talk about experience in a graduate program. Well, I've witnessed graduate students and professors eat alive individuals who have made comments similar to yours in this thread. It was because of these experiences that  I threw you a softball by suggesting that you be more precise in your comments. Rather than hitting the ball out of the park by referencing any of the dozens of studies available, you decided to go in another direction.

You have failed in your efforts to control the conversation by dismissing alternative points of view that the GRE is disadvantageous to members of under represented affiliations and maybe not in the best long term interests of professions that use the Ivory Tower as a training ground.

Yes, there are studies that indicate that the GRE predicts performance by members of certain programs. Yet, you are being overly broad by suggesting, without offering a level of proof equal to your tone, that the correlation between GRE scores and performance in graduate school holds true for all affiliations in all programs.

Maybe your concern is that using different metrics for future admissions will somehow undermine your performance on the GRE. (Or maybe you are concerned about who might get in if GRE scores are no longer required.)

Either/or/something else entirely, you've made it clear that you like the GRE and that you believe that it serves a useful purpose in making admissions decisions. It worked for you so no need to ask if there are better ways.

You've also made it clear, despite your claims of being genuinely curious, that you're not really interested in considering carefully on your own accord alternative viewpoints in a debate that will shape the life choices of aspiring graduate students for years to come. For worse and for better, this debate will continue among professional academics and decision makers in higher education regardless of your faith in GRE scores.

[Theory007]

On 12/14/2021 at 10:47 PM, Sigaba said:

I think that you're gaslighting.

You have no idea of what?

• How to use a moderator's control panel to split a thread?
• How to use the message system to reach out to other moderators to ask how to split a thread?
• How to start a new thread and post a link to it in this one?
• How to go to the Invision Community link that is at the bottom of every page of every thread in every forum at the GradCafe and click the help button?
• How to use Google to search for "Invision forum how to split threads" which leads one here?

@LatinAmericanFootball's question was posed to you in the open to something you posted in the open. Why not answer it in the open as well? You're comfortable calling people you've never met cheaters out in the open but you want to go private when the accused holds you accountable. This is not a good look for the Grad Cafe. 

I think that it's incumbent upon you to answer the question openly for the sake of your personal honor and intellectual integrity to say nothing of your credibility as a moderator. 

Here's the thing. You and no one else started this shitshow by brushing aside concerns about the GRE, some held by actual professional academics who agree that the exam can be useful predictor of performance, and by alleging without proof that many, if not most, of the people who took the GRE at home last two years cheated. (Newer members must be brimming with confidence in this message board knowing that a moderator thinks so highly of them.)

You have deliberately escalated the temperature of this thread with snide comments that reflect a lack of situational awareness. You talk about experience in a graduate program. Well, I've witnessed graduate students and professors eat alive individuals who have made comments similar to yours in this thread. It was because of these experiences that  I threw you a softball by suggesting that you be more precise in your comments. Rather than hitting the ball out of the park by referencing any of the dozens of studies available, you decided to go in another direction.

You have failed in your efforts to control the conversation by dismissing alternative points of view that the GRE is disadvantageous to members of under represented affiliations and maybe not in the best long term interests of professions that use the Ivory Tower as a training ground.

Yes, there are studies that indicate that the GRE predicts performance by members of certain programs. Yet, you are being overly broad by suggesting, without offering a level of proof equal to your tone, that the correlation between GRE scores and performance in graduate school holds true for all affiliations in all programs.

Maybe your concern is that using different metrics for future admissions will somehow undermine your performance on the GRE. (Or maybe you are concerned about who might get in if GRE scores are no longer required.)

Either/or/something else entirely, you've made it clear that you like the GRE and that you believe that it serves a useful purpose in making admissions decisions. It worked for you so no need to ask if there are better ways.

You've also made it clear, despite your claims of being genuinely curious, that you're not really interested in considering carefully on your own accord alternative viewpoints in a debate that will shape the life choices of aspiring graduate students for years to come. For worse and for better, this debate will continue among professional academics and decision makers in higher education regardless of your faith in GRE scores.

I said that I was not trying to "control the conversation" - I still don't understand what you mean by this.

Maybe you think it is incumbent upon me to answer whatever, but I think it is more important to not occupy the conversation and let others use this thread. @LatinAmericanFootball asked a specific question and I am happy to answer but clearly I have no obligation to answer publicly. Why not answer it publicly? Because I still don't think I am the one who needs to present evidence for my position. The burden of proof is on those who present a staggering claim and that is not me. Besides, me posting again will fuel the apparent rage you have towards me and my objective is not to escalate the situation. I want this to be a site for everyone and not stuff like this. As an alternative you can start a new thread on the topic (I will not split my own) and we can engage there. But this thread is for aspiring phd students in political science and meant to offer support to anyone who needs it.

I have not called anyone in particular cheaters but suggested that the GRE taken at home does not live up to the same standards as an on-site test. And it does not. I say this not to make anyone unhappy but because I am trying to explain why many schools have decided to make it optional. And yes, I can disagree with anecdotal "evidence" - some person saying something about something - because it is not particularly relevant what a select individual believes about anything.

Despite what you think, I am free to dismiss claims that the GRE does not measure ability. You seem to think that the study you cited is slam-dunk evidence that the GRE does not in fact correlate with ability, but anyone who reads that study can see that it is not. Did you read it at all - I'm still curious about this?

I have not deliberately raised the temperature of this conversation or made snide comments. I have said - maybe in a direct manner - what I thought about the astonishing claim that the GRE does not predict performance. Clearly I am free to say this without reservation. Remember that I responded to the claim that the GRE does not predict performance. You may think I would be on the receiving end of criticism by "academic and graduate students'" denouncement, but why would I? I am simply pointing out that the evidence you presented fell short - and there is no doubt about it.

Yes I have dismissed alternative points of view because there is no evidence for these views. I am not for or against either. All I am saying is that the evidence you happened to present fell short. And I did agree with at least one way in which the GRE is unfair to underrepresented students - and I still believe this.

You seem to think that I have other motivations like being concerned about who will get admitted, that I am not genuinely curious, that I am narrow minded, that others' performance on the GRE will undermine my own, or that I am saying what I am saying "because the GRE worked for me". You can make up any story that you want - and you have made up plenty already - but it does not change the fact that the article you presented as indisputable evidence does not say the thing you thought it did. Everything I said about that article still stands. You have not attempted to dispute this but instead spent your time acting offended. Please take me face value when I say that I am simply interested in responding to a specific claim and nothing else lays behind this interest.

I have no doubt that the conversation will continue and that is fine. But the conversation we're having right here is not productive and - again - I want to leave room for others in this forum.

I cannot figure you out. You're mad at my tone it seems - even though I did not personally attack anyone and simply stated what I believed to be factual. And you're unnecessarily angry about the fact that I disagree with you and presented precise reasons why the purported "evidence" you cited was no good.

I am not sure why you are so offended, but it seems to me that you are trying to escalate the situation here and that you now resort to personal attacks. If you have the interest of the members of this site - as I do - then let me appeal to you for the third time and suggest that we end this conversation here. Continuing this conversation does not serve anyone. Notice that I am not trying to escalate the situation, not making up stories about you, and not resorting to personal attacks. I simply happen to disagree with you and can - I believe - back it up. I don't understand why that's so upsetting to you but again let's end it here.

As an alternative you can continue your attacks in my DM - but let's de-clutter this thread and let others post their questions, concerns, and later victories and celebrations when they get admitted. Deal?

[LatinAmericanFootball]

Folks, my email inbox is getting congested as you tagged me like 15 times over the past 24 hours.

My point was simply that the GRE is still being used and taken seriously by admissions committees, and the many of us that had to take it at home should not worry about it being less valued than the standard GRE because (1) the report does not indicate the test type and (2) ETS protocols are very rigid. If @Theory007 has reasons to believe otherwise but is not willing to disclose them, no sweat, but I'll stand by my point. Multiple people receiving offers last year with GREs taken at home, and the fact that many universities that made them optional last year made it mandatory again this year (when it is still possible to take the test at home), further indicate that making it optional was more of a response to the early-pandemic uncertainty and making grad applications accessible to people who wouldn't be able to take the test either way than any concern with cheating.

In other news, most applications are due today - hope you all got to upload everything without issues! My last recommender just sent his letter after I reminded him for the third time this week. Hope he doesn't hate me now.

[scared_phd]

I don't have a lot to offer on the substantive discussion on the GRE as I am not informed on the literature nor the larger discussion but in my experience, the GRE at home is more stringent than the test center. When I was taking it at home, the proctor made the environment very uneasy for me. At one point he randomly took control of my screen without informing me, saying he couldn't see my video while precious test time was running out (I lowkey still blame my less than desirable score on that cuz it kind of threw me off tempo afterwards too). He also kept talking to me saying I should do this and that while I was working on the test and that, in my experience, doesn't happen too often in test centers. One of my friends had his test cancelled after the fact with the proctor citing that my friend went away from his screen mid test. My friend claims he got permission to go to the bathroom that but that didn't matter at the end. 

Also, in a more general observation, I think cheating on the GRE is kind of counterintuitive as you simply don't have the time to do so. There might be strategic ways to reduce the time spent googling stuff or checking notes but chances are there won't be enough time at the end. 

Edited December 15, 2021 by scared_phd
clarity

[sbidyanta]

Tangential question, but do admissions committees know if you took the GRE at a test center or at-home? I took my GRE at a center this November, I really hope it's considered by the committee since it's fairly high and I need it to do some heavy lifting to make up for my less than stellar graduate GPA. 

[honeymoow]

4 minutes ago, sbidyanta said:

Tangential question, but do admissions committees know if you took the GRE at a test center or at-home? I took my GRE at a center this November, I really hope it's considered by the committee since it's fairly high and I need it to do some heavy lifting to make up for my less than stellar graduate GPA. 

afaik there's no indication on the test itself, though I disagree with the implication of consideration being tied to the format you chose (though, as above, this doesn't warrant further argument)

[honeymoow]

What is everyone's back-up plan, should admissions go south? (though I'm sure everyone here will do just fine!)

[sbidyanta]

I have an offer of admission from an Indian university (well technically not an offer as yet, but I have interviewed with them and I'm confident of getting an offer by next month). If I strike out entirely, probably take up the offer while preparing a few Spring applications. If that doesn't work out as well, I guess I have to wait for a post-doc to immigrate.

[MrsPhD]

On 12/14/2021 at 4:05 PM, Theory007 said:

Explain to me how the test is culturally biased. 

Some of the math questions have examples about baseball or stuff like that. That is just a small example of how it's problematic. 

 

On 12/14/2021 at 4:05 PM, Theory007 said:

There is absolutely no doubt that higher scores on the GRE correlate with ability.

This is wrong. There's a a lot of empirical research on how GRE does not correlate with success or ability. 

[Not_A_Crook]

2 hours ago, MrsPhD said:

Some of the math questions have examples about baseball or stuff like that. That is just a small example of how it's problematic. 

 

All respect but this is a small example indeed....How is this evidence of cultural bias? Baseball is played in many parts of the world, with huge followings in Latin America and Asia......In any case you don't really need to know what a "run" is or how one is scored, or what happens when the catcher drops the third strike, or really anything about baseball at all to figure out how many runs are scored per game on average, or whatever the question asks you to do statistically. They could ask a question about cricket, would it really matter? Would that really disadvantage American students who have never seen a cricket match in their lives or might they intuit the nature of the statistical problem in spite of this?

 

I do feel somewhat responsible for broaching the GRE question, but mine was really an "is it important" not "should it be important" question....Bottom line is this question will never have a true and final answer....I'm sure there are studies which "prove" and "disprove" the importance and predictive power of the test. Until they can hook up applicants to some sort of brain scan which perfectly analyzes their academic future we'll likely have to rely on such imperfect measures as the GRE.