Phd Abroad: Good or bad?

[edie]

I'm not sure if this is the right area to post this in...

I'm an American thinking about doing a PhD program abroad and I'm wondering if anyone has any insights into the pros/cons there maybe be earning a PhD in a foreign country and in obtaining a job if one has a degree from a European university versus a degree from an American university if I hope to work in the US.

Thanks for any help in advance!

cheers.

[anthropologygeek]

My understanding it is hard to get an academic job and even harder from a nonusa school

[repatriate]

I studied in the UK for my MA and noticed that the shorter degree there (3 years) did not give the students time to get (enough) publications finished. None of the PhD students from my program went on to faculty positions. Those who were successful in the academic job hunt found postdocs (at least one in the US). There also was very little funding available compared to US psychology PhD programs and the funding situation was especially dire for overseas students.

[Henry Hudson]

I've been told some of the shorter programs (like the 3-year PhD in the UK) is frowned upon in North America, as it generally doesn't involve much more than the research project. You also miss out on GTAing (or comparable experience).

[M. Swann]

I'm presently a few months shy of being a year through a three-year PhD programme outside of the United States. Obviously, having not ever undertaken graduate-level study within the U.S., it's difficult for me to offer any direct comparison, but my experience thus far has been entirely positive. I've managed to get a couple of publications in reasonably high-impact journals, have had two semesters worth of TA experience (with more to come), and have also done some RA work outside of my individual research project (with more to come and that, all being well, will lead to further publications). I have a scholarship through the university that more than adequately covers my living costs (in the country I'm in, international and domestic students are predominantly funded identically), and with the supplemental income from my TA- and RA-ing, have managed to put enough aside to go on a couple of brief holidays, and to fly home and visit my friends and family. I hope to continue to publish reasonably frequently for the remainder of the programme, but in addition my university also offers extra funding for a number of months after PhD completion to work on publications.

As for issues regarding job opportunities in the U.S., I don't really have enough knowledge in that area to comment. I can say though, that my knowledge of the recruitment process for faculty here leads me to believe that the quality of the candidate's research and their teaching experience would trump factors such as the university that awarded their degree – let alone the country in which that university is located – every time. Which is not to say, of course, that this isn't different for schools within the United States; but my guess (and it is just a guess) would be that if you study in an environment that allows you to gain experience, conduct and publish quality research in reputable journals, and work with others whose work is of a high standard, you will probably be okay. Don't quote me on that though…

[edie]

I'm presently a few months shy of being a year through a three-year PhD programme outside of the United States. Obviously, having not ever undertaken graduate-level study within the U.S., it's difficult for me to offer any direct comparison, but my experience thus far has been entirely positive. I've managed to get a couple of publications in reasonably high-impact journals, have had two semesters worth of TA experience (with more to come), and have also done some RA work outside of my individual research project (with more to come and that, all being well, will lead to further publications). I have a scholarship through the university that more than adequately covers my living costs (in the country I'm in, international and domestic students are predominantly funded identically), and with the supplemental income from my TA- and RA-ing, have managed to put enough aside to go on a couple of brief holidays, and to fly home and visit my friends and family. I hope to continue to publish reasonably frequently for the remainder of the programme, but in addition my university also offers extra funding for a number of months after PhD completion to work on publications.

As for issues regarding job opportunities in the U.S., I don't really have enough knowledge in that area to comment. I can say though, that my knowledge of the recruitment process for faculty here leads me to believe that the quality of the candidate's research and their teaching experience would trump factors such as the university that awarded their degree – let alone the country in which that university is located – every time. Which is not to say, of course, that this isn't different for schools within the United States; but my guess (and it is just a guess) would be that if you study in an environment that allows you to gain experience, conduct and publish quality research in reputable journals, and work with others whose work is of a high standard, you will probably be okay. Don't quote me on that though…

That sounds like a great gig! Was there a specific reason you wanted to go abroad for your PhD?

[Medievalmaniac]

I'm not sure if this is the right area to post this in...

I'm an American thinking about doing a PhD program abroad and I'm wondering if anyone has any insights into the pros/cons there maybe be earning a PhD in a foreign country and in obtaining a job if one has a degree from a European university versus a degree from an American university if I hope to work in the US.

Thanks for any help in advance!

cheers.

My professor in medieval literature got her PhD from Trinity, Dublin - which is a world-class program in medieval studies and outranks most American programs in that area (John Scattergood is there, among others.) She had a helluva time getting a tenure-track job in America; in fact, her professors in Ireland counseled her to stay there and teach, instead. All the US schools hiring at the time wanted Ivy league professors. She went on the job market at the same time as a fellow from Yale, with more publications; he got the top job and she ended up working as adjunct for a few years; she's now tenured. At a conference shortly after he was hired, they ran into each other and he (at least he was honest about it!) pointed out that technically, the job should have been hers because her degree outranked his as far as medieval studies goes; he got the job because of his connections at Yale. This is how American universities work, unfortunately.

So, while you will likely get a top-notch education at a foreign university, you do have to consider the job market in America, if that's where you want to teach - they want professors who have gone through the American education system, themselves.

[edie]

So, while you will likely get a top-notch education at a foreign university, you do have to consider the job market in America, if that's where you want to teach - they want professors who have gone through the American education system, themselves.

ahhh... good thoughts. thank you!

[M. Swann]

That sounds like a great gig! Was there a specific reason you wanted to go abroad for your PhD?

It was a combination of a few reasons, but the main "selling point" for me was the presence of specific faculty in whose work I was interested (actually, whose work had to some extent inspired me to pursue the academic path in the first place).

[Strangefox]

Very interesting thread! And what if a person who studied at a US grad school wants to teach in Europe, - what will happen then? Do European universities prefer to hire professors with European degrees? Or they do not care?

[repatriate]

I've managed to get a couple of publications in reasonably high-impact journals

The assistant professor (roughly lecturer) interviewees at my current US institution had 5-6 first author JPSP or Psych Science publications in addition to any second-tier, second+ author, or book chapter publications, so 10 or more publications each. It would be very difficult for someone from a 3-year program to be competitive with these applicants.

[phoenix245]

Very interesting thread! And what if a person who studied at a US grad school wants to teach in Europe, - what will happen then? Do European universities prefer to hire professors with European degrees? Or they do not care?

There are quite a few Americans teaching in European schools, most of them with US degrees. I would say the only advantage to being European in the academic market is having the connections but sometimes not knowing anyone on the committee personally can actually be an advantage (no past conflicts!). I know several prof's in the UK, Germany and Switzerland who were tenured in the US (at places such as Berkeley, Scripps and NYU) and decided to come to Europe afterwards. They seem to be doing quite well. So in short, I don't see any preference for European-educated prof's here in Europe provided we are talking sufficiently large and international institutions with courses taught in English.

[a fragrant plant]

Very interesting thread! And what if a person who studied at a US grad school wants to teach in Europe, - what will happen then? Do European universities prefer to hire professors with European degrees? Or they do not care?

I can only speak of my experience in the UK. In my department we have at least 2 lectures from the U.S. and several from Europe. I noticed that in the UK it's not uncommon for PhD graduates to remain in the universities that awarded them their PhDs and eventually work their way up to be Post-Doc fellows or lecturers. Obviously you have to be highly competitive (and extremely lucky) to have such an opportunity. I don't see this happening very often in the U.S.

[Langoustine]

Doing a PhD in the EU model won't give you much time... From what I know: Yes, their PhDs (~3 years) are very short, although you will get some TAing experience. Also you need a Masters to get into most PhD programs there. My European friends have said PhD students are more like employees...

But I guess it totally depends on your field, if the department is strong where you are looking. The thing that worries me most is the reduced amount of graduate courses compared to the US :/ I think since most require a Ms they assume you are totally ready to hit the ground running! I am coming from the sciences so I don't know about other fields!

[Bukharan]

Very interesting thread! And what if a person who studied at a US grad school wants to teach in Europe, - what will happen then? Do European universities prefer to hire professors with European degrees? Or they do not care?

I'd say that if the degree is from an Ivy (I use in a broad meaning), then chances of getting a position somewhere in Europe are quite high. Those schools in the Netherlands and the UK are weak at the knees when they hear 'Harvard'.

Obviously, provided that there is also an excellent academic record, publications, interesting scholarship blah-blah.

[balderdash]

Don't forget, though: many PhDs from Europe tack on one or two post-docs to get the publishing experience before they apply for TT jobs. So instead of 5-7 years studying, they'll do 3 studying and then 2-3 of paid research and writing. It's kind of a wash, really.

But I was told by all of my professors (at an American undergrad institution) to not do my PhD abroad, basically because "they way they do the degree is just not how we do things."

[theregalrenegade]

Forgive me if this is obvious, since I'm just a first year MA. Are there programmes in which you can study abroad in the graduate level for a shorter, specific amount of time (6mo to 1yr), and then return to your original institution? I think I recall seeing a summer programme in the UK that went for 3mo (which I don't think is long enough) but at least you get to explore and expand your experience in the world.

[Kathiza]

I've been told some of the shorter programs (like the 3-year PhD in the UK) is frowned upon in North America, as it generally doesn't involve much more than the research project. You also miss out on GTAing (or comparable experience).

I don't really understand... Most PhDs in the US also take 3 years to complete...

[rsldonk]

Forgive me if this is obvious, since I'm just a first year MA. Are there programmes in which you can study abroad in the graduate level for a shorter, specific amount of time (6mo to 1yr), and then return to your original institution? I think I recall seeing a summer programme in the UK that went for 3mo (which I don't think is long enough) but at least you get to explore and expand your experience in the world.

These are not the same as attending a foreign university full time to earn your degree.

My .02 cents for this whole thing, it depends on what university you attend as to whether you can find a TT job in the US when you finish. Oxford, Cambridge, sure no problem, they are considered at least equal to the Ivy League in the US. Even to a lesser extent, St. Andrews, Sorbonne, Heidelburg, Bologne, are ok, people have hard of them at least. Charles University in Prague, despite it being one of the oldest universities in Europe, good luck getting a TT job in the US. That is not to say you won't get an excellent education in another country, you will. Its just that the US academic job market sucks and if the hiring committee hasn't heard of your university, they aren't going to take you seriously.

[Langoustine]

I don't really understand... Most PhDs in the US also take 3 years to complete...

Hey Kathiza! Like other issues on Grad Cafe I think this is an issue with fields. For the sciences I think it's considered very lucky if you get out in 4 years! Generally I have heard 4-6 years. A lot of funding packages are 4-5 years...I am crossing my fingers I am done in 5!

My mom last night was talking and it turned out she thought my PhD was only going to be 2 years! 2 years!!!! Not a Masters, a PhD!! I had to correct her and at first she did not believe me...like why would I lie. Anyways, I think they are longer in the US because of more coursework in the beginning. There is also the qualifying exam you need to pass too after the 2nd year....

[Kathiza]

Yes, I understand. They were also telling me that I should expect 5-6 years to finish.

But the "official" duration of most degrees (or the minimum duration) is three years, right?

[Bukharan]

Yes, I understand. They were also telling me that I should expect 5-6 years to finish.

But the "official" duration of most degrees (or the minimum duration) is three years, right?

Once again, it depends on the programme. I would think that many Humanities programmes and most sciences took longer. I think three years is very rare.

For most of my programmes, for instance, the 'official' duration (this term can be disputed) is five years. My field, however, occasionally is 'almost officially' six years.

[Kathiza]

Does it also depend on whether you already have a Master's degree in this field or not? Or is it all the same no matter if you already hold an advanced degree in this field or not?

(I'm sorry if I'm asking dumb questions, but I don't know that much about the system in the US)

[repatriate]

Again, it depends on the program. Mine, for example, will not count previous coursework that already counted towards a degree, so any coursework from a master's program elsewhere can't be "double counted" for a new degree. However, some other programs in the same field will waive some credit requirements for those entering with a master's.

[a fragrant plant]

I think we need to remember that your university can't make you or break you. It will have a significant impact, of course, but in my opinion, where you get your degree will not constitute an infinite hurdle in your academic job search if you're a good scholar. From what I see in my field, UK PhDs did make their ways across the atlantic. Here are some examples:

- Professor X, PhD from LSE, has been a tenured professor at UC Berkeley since mid 1990s.

- Professor Y, PhD from Oxford, has been a tenured professor at Washington University in St. Louis since 2010.

- Professor Z, PhD from Cambridge, has been a tenured professor at Stanford since mid 2000.

I'm sure there are more successful stories out there. I agree that UK PhD students won't have as much time as their counterparts in the U.S. to gain teaching and publishing experience, but I know some very proactive students out there who are working deligently towards their CVs. When it comes to job searching, a lot of time it comes down to luck. The decision is yours, and the warnings brought up in this thread are valid, but it doesn't mean that you are ruled out immediately because your degree is from abroad.