Grades in Graduate School

[Thales]

So, I finished with a 4.0 this semester in 4 graduate only courses at a top public Canadian Master's program.

Obviously, a 4.0 is high, and I feel that I worked for these marks. Indeed, I felt that I worked harder this last semester than I ever had in my undergraduate program (at the same university). However, at the same time, I'm left to wonder: does everyone really get an "A" in graduate school?

What is the value of an "A" in grad school? Is a 4.0 the de facto standard?

Edited January 21, 2011 by Thales

[Grimm101]

Be proud of your accomplishment. I went through the same thing thinking that A's were the norm and overall expectation in grad school. You'd be surprised at the grade point averages of some grad students. Don't discount your hard work, be proud of yourself.

[psycholinguist]

Depends on the department and school; I get the feeling that some of them just dole out As to grad-students simply because they feel grades are a lot less important in grad-school (and because they want their grad-students to have competitive scholarship-applications and such), but others make you work for them. Regardless, I imagine there really aren't any standards; and more importantly, it's your research/presentations/publications that count for the most.

(By the way: hello from across campus, and thanks for letting me know that grades are now available on ROSI! I'd been wondering when they would be.)

[Medievalmaniac]

So, I finished with a 4.0 this semester in 4 graduate only courses at a top public Canadian Master's program.

Obviously, a 4.0 is high, and I feel that I worked for these marks. Indeed, I felt that I worked harder this last semester than I ever had in my undergraduate program (at the same university). However, at the same time, I'm left to wonder: does everyone really get an "A" in graduate school?

What is the value of an "A" in grad school? Is a 4.0 the de facto standard?

NO, everyone does not get a 4.0 in graduate school. There are certainly departments at just about every campus where grade inflation occurs, but there are also nearly always members of each cohort who are dangerously close to being on probation and/or asked to leave for grades/ under-performing. There are also departments where it is really hard to get an A. In just about any situation, the 4.0 means that you are doing what you are supposed to do, the way you are supposed to do it, and that you are good at it. Consider it a positive job evaluation.

Edited January 21, 2011 by Medievalmaniac

[StrangeLight]

in my experience, it varies by professor, not school or department. some profs in my program give everyone A or A- and call it a day and others have reputations for being notoriously difficult graders. i'm getting an interdisciplinary certificate in addition to my PhD and the advisor of the certificate program always comments to me that one particular professor is extremely difficult, and do i really want to take his class? i point out that i've taken courses with him before and received As in them, so i'm not afraid of him, but it's interesting to see someone in the advisor's position recommend that students avoid the guy that gives Bs or even Cs.

[starmaker]

This seems to vary by field and/or program.

I've encountered students in fields and programs very dissimilar to mine, who claim that in their programs, anything in the B range will be considered, at the very least, a yellow flag, and will probably lead to conversations with your advisor about where you went wrong.

In my MS program, a 3.5 will qualify you for our chapter of our field's honors society (undergrads have a lower threshold, so this is after having adjusted for the fact that we're grad students). Bs are common and acceptable (at least one class that I have taken, where the prof conveniently provided class averages and such, was centered near the B/B- border).

[NadaJ]

I am a Masters student and I have received all A/A- that I work damn hard to obtain. However, I have a class in which the instructor told us on the first day that "nothing is wrong with a C, it means you have met the requirements for the course." This is BS. I am not advocating for easy grading, but the adcomms do not think "oh, this applicant has met the criteria for the course" when they see a C. My professor says in order to earn an A, we have to wow her, but when asked to define "wow", she was at a loss of words.

Edited January 21, 2011 by NadaJ

[Eigen]

I am a Masters student and I have received all A/A- that I work damn hard to obtain. However, I have a class in which the instructor told us on the first day that "nothing is wrong with a C, it means you have met the requirements for the course." This is BS. I am not advocating for easy grading, but the adcomms do not think "oh, this applicant has met the criteria for the course" when they see a C. My professor says in order to earn an A, we have to wow her, but when asked to define "wow", she was at a loss of words.

See, at my school, a C for a graduate student is "go before a committee and explain why we shouldn't kick you straight out on your ass". A "B" average is the minimum allowed, and anything lower than a B- in any class puts you on probation.

It was similar at my undergrad (for graduate students). Similarly, making our Honors Convocation was 3.5 for undergrads, and 4.0 for grad students, the reasoning being that if it were 3.5, basically every grad student would be invited.

I know it varies from school to school, but a lot of grading seems to be a combination of "you should be good enough to get As" with less intense grading.

[waddle]

At one school I visited, I was told by grad students that their advisors didn't want to see A's on their graduate record. An "A" indicated there was time that the student could have been spending on research; the professors there apparently liked to see a straight-B record.

[anthropologygeek]

If you are a phd student, grades don't matter as long as its a B or an A. No one will ever ask to see it or care about grades. However, grades are not given in every program I have seen. You get the grade you earn so be very proud of your A.

[wtncffts]

At one school I visited, I was told by grad students that their advisors didn't want to see A's on their graduate record. An "A" indicated there was time that the student could have been spending on research; the professors there apparently liked to see a straight-B record.

Well, that's silly. I mean, are you supposed to purposefully make mistakes on things? Perhaps this is field-specific, but in my experience, much of the coursework directly involves research. During my MA program, a couple of the papers I wrote for classes were specifically intended to be 'rough' parts of my thesis, testing out arguments and ways of saying things. The distinction between coursework and research, at least with me, has been extremely narrow. I understand in the sciences the emphasis on research may be greater, but doesn't your coursework strengthen your research both directly and indirectly?

[waddle]

Well, that's silly. I mean, are you supposed to purposefully make mistakes on things? Perhaps this is field-specific, but in my experience, much of the coursework directly involves research. During my MA program, a couple of the papers I wrote for classes were specifically intended to be 'rough' parts of my thesis, testing out arguments and ways of saying things. The distinction between coursework and research, at least with me, has been extremely narrow. I understand in the sciences the emphasis on research may be greater, but doesn't your coursework strengthen your research both directly and indirectly?

Well, to be fair, having their student get an A in their class doesn't really help an assistant professor get tenure. Having them spend more time in the lab, and writing papers, however, does.

[wtncffts]

Well, to be fair, having their student get an A in their class doesn't really help an assistant professor get tenure. Having them spend more time in the lab, and writing papers, however, does.

Ah, okay, I get that. I must've skipped the part in your original post saying their advisors wanted to see B's, not A's; I took it as sort of the official department line. Still kind of odd, but understandable, I guess.

[StrangeLight]

If you are a phd student, grades don't matter as long as its a B or an A. No one will ever ask to see it or care about grades. However, grades are not given in every program I have seen. You get the grade you earn so be very proud of your A.

they care about A vs. B when you apply for fellowships, internally and externally. especially for competitive awards, where so many great research projects are pitched, who does or does not get funding can sometimes come down to things as small as "he went outside the margin limit," or "she has two typos," or "he has a few Bs on his transcript."

[rising_star]

If you are a phd student, grades don't matter as long as its a B or an A. No one will ever ask to see it or care about grades. However, grades are not given in every program I have seen. You get the grade you earn so be very proud of your A.

I've spent most of this academic year applying for fellowships to fund my dissertation research. With the exception of the DDRIG from NSF, everyone has wanted to see my transcripts. Presumably, if they are requiring that I scan or send them, they do care about my grades.

[Thales]

Thanks for the input everyone.

[anthropologygeek]

Rising star- I forgot about fellowships. Thanks for pointing this out. Grades do matter when applying to fellowships. I geuss the reason I forgot about this is I don't consider it an option since my gre is below 1200 and I know the gre score is one of the major factors they base fellowships on. Well at least the ones that would consider your grades.

[NadaJ]

And working in an academic department and being privy to TT searches, the committee looks at transcripts. I'm sure seeing a C will raise questions.

I think the grading for this one professor of mine is an anomaly. And this will only be a problem for me if I am reapplying to PhD programs again next year. Then I will most likely have to explain anything lower than an A- in a foundation course in my SOP. Maybe a B will be okay...

[Eigen]

Rising star- I forgot about fellowships. Thanks for pointing this out. Grades do matter when applying to fellowships. I geuss the reason I forgot about this is I don't consider it an option since my gre is below 1200 and I know the gre score is one of the major factors they base fellowships on. Well at least the ones that would consider your grades.

The NSF Graduate Fellowship doesn't require GREs (or even allow them to be submitted), but does require both undergraduate and graduate transcripts.

[Matilda_Tone]

Glad this thread exists! I felt the same way, Thales.

I did my MA last year, came out with a 4.0, and figured that meant I was average-mediocre...which is not what one wants to be thinking as they prepare PhD applications (as I am right now). Some of these comments give me hope that my grades will seem semi-impressive. Fingers crossed!

I think that part of my problem on this front is my lack of confidence and my shyness when it comes to academic discussions. Last year, when people from my programme would get together, they all seemed to be “talking the talk” (“I finished my paper four weeks early and had three profs read it over for me...” “Professor so-and-so is always impressed with my work...” “I’ve taken an entirely new approach to this topic and I can’t wait to submit it to this conference...” etc.) I tend to be pretty quiet when it comes to this sort of thing, and generally feel like most of what I have done is crap. So when a last-minute paper that I thought was terrible gets an 88%, I usually assume that the people who have it all figured out were getting 98%.

The more logical side of my brain tells me that most people are probably more talk than substance...but I’m always full of doubt (especially now that it is application season).

Perhaps some of you can relate?

Edited January 25, 2011 by Matilda_Tone

[wtncffts]

Glad this thread exists! I felt the same way, Thales.

I did my MA last year, came out with a 4.0, and figured that meant I was average-mediocre...which is not what one wants to be thinking as they prepare PhD applications (as I am right now). Some of these comments give me hope that my grades will seem semi-impressive. Fingers crossed!

I think that part of my problem on this front is my lack of confidence and my shyness when it comes to academic discussions. Last year, when people from my programme would get together, they all seemed to be “talking the talk” (“I finished my paper four weeks early and had three profs read it over for me...” “Professor so-and-so is always impressed with my work...” “I’ve taken an entirely new approach to this topic and I can’t wait to submit it to this conference...” etc.) I tend to be pretty quiet when it comes to this sort of thing, and generally feel like most of what I have done is crap. So when a last-minute paper that I thought was terrible gets an 88%, I usually assume that the people who have it all figured out were getting 98%.

The more logical side of my brain tells me that most people are probably more talk than substance...but I’m always full of doubt (especially now that it is application season).

Perhaps some of you can relate?

I'm honestly confused about this. Are there different GPA scales of which I'm unaware? 4.0 is the maximum, is it not? So if you and the OP have a 4.0, you can't have done any better, regardless of what other students did. Now, I can understand the feeling of relative inadequacy, but the grade itself can't be 'average-mediocre', unless everyone else is also 'average-mediocre'. I must be missing something.

[Matilda_Tone]

I don't know about the OP, but I'm in Canada and I don't think the grading system is quite the same as the US. That may be the confusion.

In Canada the grade itself (i.e. percentage) tends to matter more than the GPA. At most Canadian schools, anything above an 85% is a 4.0...but when schools look at your transcripts, there is a big difference between an 85% and a 98% (even though both are a “4”).

In my case, I felt like my grades in the 85-88 range were probably average...and it often felt like my classmates must be doing better (and if I was applying for programmes with an 86, and they were applying with 90s, I’d be out of my league).

Edited January 25, 2011 by Matilda_Tone

[Thales]

Sure, I can sympathize with your sentiment(s) Matilda_Tone, especially insofar as your nagging feeling of relative inadequacy.

Anyway, I am also from (and studying in) Canada, and my graduate institution does not award percentage grades -- rather, they award only letter grades. An A (4.0) is, theoretically anyway, the highest mark one can achieve.

I asked this question not because I feel that others are better, more proficient, or etc than myself; but instead, I was under the impression that it is very normal for most (if not all) graduate students to get As in every class. Perhaps I was mistaken.

[Matilda_Tone]

I did my undergraduate degree at UofT, and (for undergrads, at least) you get a number grade, a letter grade (A, B, etc) and a GPA on ROSI. My M.A. school only gave numbers and letters (but I still convert things in my head based on the UofT GPA scale).

In any event, point is, I thought As were normal too- but mostly because I figured that if I was getting them, everyone else must be too (and more impressive As, at that).

Edited January 25, 2011 by Matilda_Tone

[Ludwig von Dracula]

I've gone to two Canadian universities and I've never gotten a percentage number in 7 years of courses, just a letter grade.

At my undergrad (Manitoba), an A was a 4.0 and an A+ was a 4.5. I wasn't quite sure whether I should try to transfer this into a 4.0 scale for my grad applications because my undergrad GPA was actually a 4.06, which might have made me look like some kind of genius without the context...or perhaps like a bad student on some wacky 5 or 6 point scale, who knows. I was a bit surprised to find that my university had an idiosyncratic system (unlike my current one, which uses the 4.0 scale).

Anyone else from a North American school that uses a different scale?