Giving up

[mattyd05]

Hi all,

This is my second round of applications and it is not panning out well so far. 0/5 at this point, and I applied to eleven total. I applied two years ago for Fall 2009 with a B.A., didn't get in anywhere, and did my M.A. to increase my chances. I have a 4.0 grad gpa, presented papers at several conferences, have an excellent writing sample, and some very good letters of reference, etc etc... (we all think we have strong applications). B.A. SUNY Geneseo, M.A. University at Buffalo. If I get rejected everywhere a second time I think it's going to break me - I just don't think I can muster the motivation to go through this whole process AGAIN sometime in the future; nor do I necessarily want to be in my 30s when I'm coming out with my Ph.D. (I'm 24 now).

I don't know, maybe the Ph.D. and academia were just ideals? Maybe it's just not for me? But this whole process has really sapped me of my academic ambition. Sigh. Maybe it's time to move on with my life.

Rejections: UB, UDel, Princeton

Implicit Rejections: Hopkins, WUSTL

Still waiting: Rutgers, Stony Brook, UNLV, UGeorgia, UFlorida, UNC CH

Field(s): Early American Postmodernism and Public Theory&Pedagogy

[tortola23]

This is also my second round, and I'm applying to twelve schools. So far I have one official and one implicit rejection, no acceptances, and no wait-lists. At least you managed to work on an MA; apparently I can't even get into those programs.

I understand how you feel, and have no idea what I'll do with myself if I don't get in anywhere this year. I don't seem to be able to get a real job with my BA, so I don't even know why I bothered to go to college, much less apply to grad school.

This whole thing is so depressing.

[augustquail]

This is my first round of applications, but so far I have three rejections, and I applied to ten schools. Last fall I was writing my MA thesis (I did a combined ba/ma), and I decided not to apply while I was writing it, because I thought my application would suffer. So I waited until this fall to apply. If I get rejected from everywhere, I will be completely crushed, but I probably will try again. That being said, I can't afford to take more classes, and it just seems like it will be harder to get in with a longer 'inbetween' period than I have this season....I'm 25, and I feel like this is a good age to start a phd...I just don't want to waste anymore time! I haven't even heard from half my schools, but I do feel like giving up already. This *is* depressing...I don't know what I will do if I don't get accepted by the second try...there aren't exactly a million jobs in the english field. I will probably end up going in more debt getting an Ma in education and teaching romeo and juliet to 9th graders who don't care.

SIGH

[woolfie]

Guys- I'm 28 and I'm probably going to do an MA program and THEN a phd program. So I will be well into my thirties before getting my phd. If it's what you want to do, it doesn't matter how old you are. Just make sure you enjoy it and live your life the way you want to.

[TC3]

If I get rejected everywhere a second time I think it's going to break me - I just don't think I can muster the motivation to go through this whole process AGAIN sometime in the future; nor do I necessarily want to be in my 30s when I'm coming out with my Ph.D. (I'm 24 now).

I think that as more programs are clogged with hundreds of overqualified applicants, it will be more and more common for people to be in their early 30s when receiving the PhD. This in itself shouldn't be something to be ashamed of--it means that we'll be a bit more mature and clear on our goals when going onto the academic job market for the first time. As my MA thesis chair told me when she learned that I'd still be 22 when I received my MA, "we've got enough young scholars," and I kind of get what she meant. In other fields, it's typical for people to work for years "in the field" gaining integral hands-on experience before transitioning to graduate study, but because the humanities don't really have any professional component outside of the academy, we've tend in the past to be a bit incestuous in our degree-granting (the BA goes onto the MA at 22, the MA to the PhD at 24, and the PhD to a professorship at 28, where s/he will in turn produce more people to go straight through the system).

I think that the perceived maturity factor will become more of a significant consideration among admissions committees, especially as more programs, rightly or wrongly, embrace "professionalization." I'm 25 now and will be 26 when I start my doctorate this Fall, meaning that I'll probably be 31 or so when I get my PhD. I washed out of applications two years in a row and was accepted during my 3rd round (this year). It wasn't just a matter of weathering the storm, of course. This was the first year that I actually had a solid sense of what I wanted to do with a scholarly career in a particular subfield, and I believe that that came through in my statement of purpose.

Regardless, considering that the PhD is the pinnacle of educational credentials, it isn't anything to be ashamed of to be earning it in one's early to mid thirties. I knew some grad students in their 40s when I was in my MA program; those people had families, a history, etc., but they were all incredibly happy to be doing what they were doing, and they were great teachers and scholars to boot.

[stillthisappeal]

I'm currently 0 for 1 (implicitly, 0 for 3) out of ten applications. I admit: I'm starting to get a little nervous. But you should keep in mind that there is still a lot of time left in this application season. Most notifications won't go out until next month and many schools will be adjusting their waitinglist up until the second week of April.

Keep in mind that there is a good chance you will be in their thirties by the time your degree anyway. In some cases, it might be because you had to reapply to programs. In others, it might be because it took five or six years to finish your program. You can't rush a PhD.

Also, as a matter of perspective, keep in mind that most of the programs you are applying to are very competitive. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it does mean that you have to get used to rejection.

Let's hope March is a good month.

[crae]

Guys- I'm 28 and I'm probably going to do an MA program and THEN a phd program. So I will be well into my thirties before getting my phd. If it's what you want to do, it doesn't matter how old you are. Just make sure you enjoy it and live your life the way you want to.

Agreed! I just canceled a longer post about my personal experiences because I didn't want to sound lecture-y. But I'm also 28 and this is my second round of PhD apps. To me, it seems like you guys have tons of time to work it out.

Basically I'm trying to encourage you not to give up just yet. Not only are you young compared to many PhD applicants, you've also only heard from (not even) half of your schools. You may just get in this year! :-)

[truckbasket]

I went back to college to get my BA at 31 following a "successful" career. If I get accepted into a PhD program, I'll be 40 by the time I'm done. That will leave me with a solid 25 years or so of enjoyable work. That decade I spent out there in the world was absolutely invaluable, and my return to school couldn't have come at a better time -- no sooner, no later.

Consequently, I would suggest that imposing ideal time restraints on completing your education is neither practical nor beneficial.

Hang in everybody!

[tinycat]

Guys- I'm 28 and I'm probably going to do an MA program and THEN a phd program. So I will be well into my thirties before getting my phd. If it's what you want to do, it doesn't matter how old you are. Just make sure you enjoy it and live your life the way you want to.

Similar to the above, I am about to be 28 and I applied for a PhD for the fall, so I will be well into my 30s by the time I finish! I won't be a spring chicken when I'm done, but the up-side is that I feel much more focused than out of undergrad and even out of my first grad program...

but I know it's hard to feel hopeful it's more competitive than ever, but don't let the age thing make you think you can't give it a another shot. (my mother, btw, finished her BA in her thirties, phd in late thirties, and then finished a second phd in her late 50s/early 60s!)

[mattyd05]

You're all absolutely right, of course! I guess it was a poor way of saying that I feel the clock ticking, you know? I want to get moving on my life... But I guess we shall see how this round does completely pan out and then go from there. I'm not ruling out coming back to this in the future, but i think I may take some time off from academia if I receive 11 rejections to gain some perspective. Thanks for all the kind/wise words!

[TC3]

Agreed! I just canceled a longer post about my personal experiences because I didn't want to sound lecture-y. But I'm also 28 and this is my second round of PhD apps. To me, it seems like you guys have tons of time to work it out.

Basically I'm trying to encourage you not to give up just yet. Not only are you young compared to many PhD applicants, you've also only heard from (not even) half of your schools. You may just get in this year! :-)

I thought I'd also add some insight from the creative writing end of things, as I tried to get into that area during my second admissions cycle attempt. Seth Abramson's research (love it or hate it--regardless, it's an awesome amount of data) indicates that the average matriculation age of an MFA candidate is 26.5 years old, meaning that most MFA-ers will be somewhere in the neighborhood or 29 or 30 when graduating, depending on program duration (2 or 3 year--a few are 4). Some of those MFA-ers then go on to creative PhDs, which usually take at least a couple of admissions cycles to land, meaning that sometime close to their 40s they'll emerge with the doctorate and look for academic employment. For writers, this is fine; they got into "the business" to write, and that's exactly what they did every step of the way. It may behoove the rest of us to take a page from that playbook. If we're getting into the critical doctorate to do research on literature and language, that's exactly what we're doing every step of the way---the point isn't to get some credential and then "start" our career. Of course, I could be talking out of my ass. Always a possibility.

[lifealive]

My knee-jerk reaction is to not sympathize with someone who bemoans the fact that they will be, gasp, thirty by the time they finish their graduate degree.

Perhaps it is time for you to "move on" with your life. If you think that not hitting a certain goal by a certain age is the only way to succeed, then I agree that you lack the pragmatism, flexibility, and adaptability to succeed as an academic. Best of luck.

[TC3]

You're all absolutely right, of course! I guess it was a poor way of saying that I feel the clock ticking, you know? I want to get moving on my life... But I guess we shall see how this round does completely pan out and then go from there. I'm not ruling out coming back to this in the future, but i think I may take some time off from academia if I receive 11 rejections to gain some perspective. Thanks for all the kind/wise words!

Counting the 2 official rejections I've received so far this cycle, I've amassed 28 rejections over 3 application cycles. I taught at a 2-year college in between my MA and PhD. It wasn't bad for the couple of years that I did it, but I wouldn't have been able to keep on for an indefinite amount of time. It's a good way to stay "in the business," even if tangentially, as you take some time "off" from attending a program.

[Zouzax]

You're all absolutely right, of course! I guess it was a poor way of saying that I feel the clock ticking, you know? I want to get moving on my life... But I guess we shall see how this round does completely pan out and then go from there. I'm not ruling out coming back to this in the future, but i think I may take some time off from academia if I receive 11 rejections to gain some perspective. Thanks for all the kind/wise words!

I understand how you feel. I remember when I turned 24 - I was stuck in the business world at an entry-level job and hating it. It was supposed to be the start of the rest of my life and I truly knew I was in the wrong place. It took a lot of courage for me to quit my job and re-enter academia.

I also remember what it was like to be 24 - nearing the mid-20s mark - and feeling all this pressure to be doing something with yourself. So I wasn't offended by your "I'm 24 already I should just give up" comment at all. My parents were completely disappointed when I announced I was leaving my job and going back to school because they thought I was too old to be a student. I don't know if you're getting pressure from the outside, but usually that's the cause of so much mental anxiety.

Now I'm 28 and in the middle of a Master's program. It took over a year for my family to come to grips with the fact that this is what I want to do with my life (be an academic). I think they still are holding out hope that Ill "do something with myself" though. And you know, it took me a long time to come to terms with the fact that it's okay to be in academia, and not only is it ok, it's awesome. And if I'm not accepted to a Ph.D program this year I'll most likely apply for a second Master's in a different but related field, which means Ill be 31 or older when I finally enter a Ph.D program.

You just have to remember that a Ph.D is the top, the climax. Why rush into it at 24? It'll be awesome if you're accepted this year, but if not, don't think it's the end. Being in academia is an experience; it's about learning, researching, teaching, discovering. Enjoy it while you're in it, and don't rush it. It took me a while to realize this, but now that I have, I'm appreciating it that much more. Everything has its time.

Edited February 18, 2011 by Zouzax

[TC3]

I also remember what it was like to be 24 - nearing the mid-20s mark - and feeling all this pressure to be doing something with yourself. So I wasn't offended by your "I'm 24 already I should just give up" comment at all. My parents were completely disappointed when I announced I was leaving my job and going back to school because they thought I was too old to be a student. I don't know if you're getting pressure from the outside, but usually that's the cause of so much mental anxiety.

My family was also ambivalent (at best) about my decision to go to grad school, and especially my decision to get a *second* graduate degree. And I wasn't even leaving behind anything that they would have considered to be gainful employment! My future in-laws actually sat me down and expressed their concern about how I wouldn't be making an honest living (not their words, but the basic gist).

[RockDenali]

Hi all,

This is my second round of applications and it is not panning out well so far. 0/5 at this point, and I applied to eleven total. I applied two years ago for Fall 2009 with a B.A., didn't get in anywhere, and did my M.A. to increase my chances. I have a 4.0 grad gpa, presented papers at several conferences, have an excellent writing sample, and some very good letters of reference, etc etc... (we all think we have strong applications). B.A. SUNY Geneseo, M.A. University at Buffalo. If I get rejected everywhere a second time I think it's going to break me - I just don't think I can muster the motivation to go through this whole process AGAIN sometime in the future; nor do I necessarily want to be in my 30s when I'm coming out with my Ph.D. (I'm 24 now).

I don't know, maybe the Ph.D. and academia were just ideals? Maybe it's just not for me? But this whole process has really sapped me of my academic ambition. Sigh. Maybe it's time to move on with my life.

Rejections: UB, UDel, Princeton

Implicit Rejections: Hopkins, Vandy

Still waiting: Rutgers, Stony Brook, UNLV, UGeorgia, UFlorida, UNC CH

Field(s): Early American Postmodernism and Public Theory&Pedagogy

No giving up. You still have several schools to hear from. You can start sighing at the end of March. Till then, no reason to be sad. Last year, my friend received 8 rejections before he was accepted to King's College London and a UC in the eleventh hour.

[theboyfriend]

The title of this thread--"Giving Up"--is disingenuous. It's purpose is not, in fact, to discuss seriously the abandonment of one's ambitions. It is, rather, a plea for encouragement. I say this, now, three rejections deep. What's insidious and corrosive about the Grad Cafe is, it lends hope to those who ought to be hopeless. Be pragmatic. That you'll land, even with a degree from the best of programs, a TT job is, well, unlikely. That you'll be tenured is unlikelier still. If we haven't got the juice to make it the first round or the second (I for one will not do this a second time) odds are we're simply not talented enough. Pitty--self-pity especially--is ridiculous and deleterious. Go to law school. Prosper.

I disagree on what Grad Cafe does. Instead of giving people hope, it creates despair by knowing exactly when everyone hears from every school, leaving you wondering when you're going to hear, if ever, and turning functional people into nervous wrecks.

Just because something is unlikely doesn't make it worth pursuing. There is a certain amount of money you need to live on: the rest is just for your own fun. But if your job makes you happy and you like what you do, you obviously need less of the latter.

And finally, the issue isn't a lack of talent, but an overabundance of it. Eventually, those who don't really want to be in this field will move on, but those who really do will stick around waiting for their shot. Don't give up yet, you have a long road in front of you and plenty of time to get to your goals.

[oulou]

I'll add to the string of posts by older PHD applicants. I also went back to school for an MA program in literature after 8 years in a completely unrelated and fairly successful career. I am turning 32 next month. And having gotten an acceptance from the program I had been dreaming of going to, I can tell you that I am beyond happy to be starting my doctorate at this age, and looking forward to a focused 6 or so years ahead. Every person is different, of course, but I know that the past, say, 8 years or so have given me more clarity and belief in what I am doing right now than I could have ever imagined 8 years ago. One thing that has changed for sure is that I got over my fear of still being "in progress" in my 30s, or even 40s. Getting rejects in your second round surely does not feel good, but at least I hope you stop fretting about 'the clock ticking' or whatever else people say to reinforce that fear of straying from a normative vision of our lifespans.

[Tybalt]

Hi all,

This is my second round of applications and it is not panning out well so far. 0/5 at this point, and I applied to eleven total. I applied two years ago for Fall 2009 with a B.A., didn't get in anywhere, and did my M.A. to increase my chances. I have a 4.0 grad gpa, presented papers at several conferences, have an excellent writing sample, and some very good letters of reference, etc etc... (we all think we have strong applications). B.A. SUNY Geneseo, M.A. University at Buffalo. If I get rejected everywhere a second time I think it's going to break me - I just don't think I can muster the motivation to go through this whole process AGAIN sometime in the future; nor do I necessarily want to be in my 30s when I'm coming out with my Ph.D. (I'm 24 now).

I don't know, maybe the Ph.D. and academia were just ideals? Maybe it's just not for me? But this whole process has really sapped me of my academic ambition. Sigh. Maybe it's time to move on with my life.

Rejections: UB, UDel, Princeton

Implicit Rejections: Hopkins, Vandy

Still waiting: Rutgers, Stony Brook, UNLV, UGeorgia, UFlorida, UNC CH

Field(s): Early American Postmodernism and Public Theory&Pedagogy

I'm a couple hours south of you (finishing up my MA at St. Bonaventure). Three of the schools on your list (UFlorida, UNLV, and Rutgers) are on my list as well. I sincerely hope that we both wind up with acceptances to the same program, because I will make sure that you never live down the fact that you had a mini-mid-life crisis at the ripe old age of 24.

Signed,

Your 31 year old fellow applicant

[TC3]

If we haven't got the juice to make it the first round or the second (I for one will not do this a second time) odds are we're simply not talented enough.

I don't know if it's a matter of "juice" or "talent." I made it into a great (not just okay, but *great*) program, finally, in my THIRD round of applying. I'd say that it was more a matter of maturation in my case, maturation in terms of research agenda, perceived fit in a program, career goals, teaching experience, etc.

When hundreds of increasingly qualified and credentialed people are cramming departments with applications for a dozen spots at most, it's just as inaccurate to say that one didn't make the cut because one wasn't talented enough. Quite often, it's the considerations that can't possibly be predicted--avoidance of subfield redundancy, availability of particular faculty members, departmental mission and personality, etc.--that cut the pile of every applicant who deserves to be admitted to the pile of applicants whom the department has the capacity to admit.

[cquin]

I also remember what it was like to be 24 - nearing the mid-20s mark - and feeling all this pressure to be doing something with yourself. So I wasn't offended by your "I'm 24 already I should just give up" comment at all. My parents were completely disappointed when I announced I was leaving my job and going back to school because they thought I was too old to be a student. I don't know if you're getting pressure from the outside, but usually that's the cause of so much mental anxiety.

Ugh, this. I'm only 22 but I'm feeling a lot of pressure from my family to look for a "real" job. The fact that I've received so many rejections thus far is only adding fuel to the fire. They're convinced I'm making the wrong choice, and that really takes a toll on a person.

To mattyd05: I wish I had words of inspiration for you, but all I can really offer is sympathy. I'm feeling just as discouraged. At least you're not alone there!

[tortola23]

I'm 23, and while I don't feel pressure to get a real job, I feel a lot of pressure to get into a school this time, because my parents helped me out a lot financially with my applications.

My family is VERY supportive and they really believe in me . . . which only makes it harder to feel like I might disappoint them. I've always been very academically successful before I started applying to grad schools, so it's rough.

p.s.- I'm working as an administrative assistant/customer service person in a big bike shop right now.

Edited February 18, 2011 by tortola23

[crae]

The title of this thread--"Giving Up"--is disingenuous. It's purpose is not, in fact, to discuss seriously the abandonment of one's ambitions. It is, rather, a plea for encouragement. I say this, now, three rejections deep. What's insidious and corrosive about the Grad Cafe is, it lends hope to those who ought to be hopeless. Be pragmatic. That you'll land, even with a degree from the best of programs, a TT job is, well, unlikely. That you'll be tenured is unlikelier still. If we haven't got the juice to make it the first round or the second (I for one will not do this a second time) odds are we're simply not talented enough. Pitty--self-pity especially--is ridiculous and deleterious. Go to law school. Prosper.

I honestly don't think anybody needs to be hopeless. Even if someone doesn't get in the first or second rounds, time, thought, reading, and gained maturity change the game entirely in subsequent years. Going through the rejection process itself is part of academia, since (of course you're right) the job market is so terrible - even the best of the best get rejected sometimes. Still, there's no chance of getting a TT job (or any professorial job) without trying, and eventually most people do end up with jobs, although not necessarily TT. I don't know how we could avoid knowing about the problems with the academic job market, which means that if we're pursuing this track anyway, we're willing to take our chances. I, for one, have lived a "safe" life since getting my M.A., and it's not any nobler than trying for what I really want, despite the risks. And if it doesn't work out job-wise, at least I got to spend five years doing something fantastically fulfilling. That's a precious gift.

Plus, the idea that law school is the magic route to prosperity seems specious - I know people with law degrees who are having a terrible time trying to support themselves.

[crae]

I'll add to the string of posts by older PHD applicants. I also went back to school for an MA program in literature after 8 years in a completely unrelated and fairly successful career. I am turning 32 next month. And having gotten an acceptance from the program I had been dreaming of going to, I can tell you that I am beyond happy to be starting my doctorate at this age, and looking forward to a focused 6 or so years ahead. Every person is different, of course, but I know that the past, say, 8 years or so have given me more clarity and belief in what I am doing right now than I could have ever imagined 8 years ago. One thing that has changed for sure is that I got over my fear of still being "in progress" in my 30s, or even 40s. Getting rejects in your second round surely does not feel good, but at least I hope you stop fretting about 'the clock ticking' or whatever else people say to reinforce that fear of straying from a normative vision of our lifespans.

Congratulations, Oulou! That's absolutely wonderful and inspiring. :-)

[harpyemma]

If we haven't got the juice to make it the first round or the second (I for one will not do this a second time) odds are we're simply not talented enough. Pitty--self-pity especially--is ridiculous

You're right--spelling it 'pitty' is ridiculous.

If you haven't got the "juice" to apply a second time (I for one will certainly do this again if i need to), odds are you're simply not keen enough. Applying to programmes you have no real interest in is ridiculous.