Anger, anyone?

[Lisa44201]

I have every right to be angry with my profs for giving me some very bad advice. I grew up being taught that you are just as responsible for the advice that you give as those are for listening to bad advice. Moreover, it was not "solely" my decision: I was very heavily encouraged and influenced by them to pursue graduate study. I wouldn't have pursued it if they hadn't encouraged me to do so.

Um, no. Bottom line, it was your decision to send the apps out. Having said that, I too was heavily advised to apply to grad schools, and it's not looking good for me right now. I'm frustrated, absolutely, but at my advisers????- No. It's not their fault. Yeah, I too probably would not have even thought of grad school had they not mentioned it, but it's not their fault I haven't been accepted anywhere. I'm responsible for making my own decisions. I'm not sure how it is that you are not responsible for yours.

[delfi]

<br />I think many schools are competing for the same set of top students. Waiting to hear back from the top selections probably adds a considerable amount of time to the decision process for less-than-top students.  I doubt that the admissions committee is intentionally making the process as long as possible. Its hard work selecting students. I actually think its good that the whole process takes less than 4 months -- I've had internship/research applications that took longer! <img src='http://forum.thegradcafe.com/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' /><br />

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Dendrogirl - there is an implicit assumption in your reply that I am a less-than-top student!

The schools that I am waiting to hear back from either havent made a decision. period; ( I know coz I contacted them and there have been no results on the results board) or they do admissions on a rolling basis.

I too have done an internship app which took almost a year to materialize! But then that was with the UN and I had a rough expectation of their timeline coz they had made it clear upfront itself. And thats exactly what I am talking about, if you tell students upfront that its going to take "X' months, you know what to expect. In my case, my ire is particular directly at a school that said they will intimate students mid-Feb, and as yet havent made their decisions! Another school has said nothing at all about when students can expect a decisions. Again, that is wrong. Have a timeline in place, and then stick to it. Its as simple as that!

[delfi]

<br />Geez! How much $$ did you pay?   My application fees were only around $70.  That doesn't go far toward paying a group of professors to review my application and a grad assistant to handle everything. I'm glad they take their time in deciding whether or not I'm going to be admitted -- If they wrote me off in less time, I'd be upset.<br />

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Dendrogirl - the adcom people are not just paid my app fee. Its part of their job (for which they get a salary) to review apps and like me there must be 100 other students who have applied to them, thats 7,000 USD right there! Not to mention the other costs that go into doing apps.

[delfi]

<br />Honestly?  I'd rather not know whether or not I'm on the wait-list right now.  I would only be even more anxious... and annoyed at the top applicants for taking their sweet time to &quot;carefully weigh&quot; their decisions among top programs.  Better to leave me in the dark and let me &quot;weigh&quot; my own decisions so that when offers actually do come, I'm prepared.  And as for rejections? You have a pretty good idea if you are rejected if waitlists and acceptances have already been handed out.<br /><br />I like the idea of an unofficial list, really.<br />

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Agreed - unofficial waitlist serve their purpose. Agreed on what you say about rejections too. I can put two and two together. I know I am rejected at one school - they havent as yet sent their official email to me. Thats fine. I am not angry with them, coz I know they stuck to their timeline as they had said.

[delfi]

<br />What an amazing and positive way to put it, dendrogirl!!! This is different than undergrad, and I want my grad schools to really look at if I am the right fit. Sure, waiting is the WORST, but it's so much better than a quick rejection where I wonder &quot;did they even take the time to see if I am right for the program?&quot;<br />

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its ok if you wnat to look at it this way. But ( I think) if they were really spending all this time thinking about if you are the right for this Program or not - they would have picked up the phone/ or emailed to schedule an interview or something!

[delfi]

<br />It could be that they aren't weighing their options, it could be that they're on a waitlist at a different program. Of course they aren't going to give up their admits to program A if they're waiting for a more-desired slot in program B that applicant X is holding onto until they hear if they're off the waitlist at program C that applicant Y is holding onto until they hear back from program D and so on. It's a giant domino effect that will sort itself out in time. Just chill. Yeah, the waiting sucks, and yeah, I want to be taken off the waitlist that I'm on, but I understand that I'm not the only person involved here, so I'm being patient. In the grand scheme of life, 4 months is really not that much time.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

Moralresearcher, you and a couple of others have made the point that the length of time is what it is and one should deal with it. Point taken. I'd like to add two clarifying points for the reason of my anger, and I perhaps should clarified this earlier itself:

1. Some schools do not tell you what their time line is. This is wrong. What you say about the domino effect is true. But they can say that most applicants will be told about their decision by "X' week of 'X' month, but some decisions have been known to come out in late March/early April as well. Then you are aware that if you havent heard by that time, you are either rejected or put on some sort of an unoficial waitlist. Now, if schools do rolling admissions, then they should say that!

2. Once you have stated a timeline, you should stick to it.

Lastly, yes, I am angry about the length of time too. But I suppose that can be defended. I just dont understand why some schools are able to make their decisions faster (i.e by March) and others cant. Someone made a point about measuring time only from the deadline date.. I am doing that. I strongly feel this process can be made better, and not necessarily by shortening it but by being more transparent about their timeline.

[delfi]

<br />This is a very kind and helpful response, and I appreciate it. I'm not trying to &quot;blame&quot; anyone: I'm angry that they encouraged me to apply but, mostly, that my profs were <i>assuring</i> me that I would get in; I think that is my biggest peeve with the advice, that it was so unrealistic. <br /><br />And just to understand why I'm so upset: I haven't worked in three years and I passed up other opportunities because my profs were so certain that I would get in. Now I haven't and the response from them is, &quot;Oh, well.&quot; I think that deserves a bit of righteous anger.<br />

Starlajane - whatever you do, please dont spoil your relationship with your profs by communicating your anger to them! Sometimes even your well-wishers are wrong about their predictions. But they are your well-wishers, so dont be too angry with them. Maybe by assuring you, they were trying to up your confidence level.. who knows??

Important thing now is to do two things:

1. Ask yourself is this really what I want? Was I doing it only coz my profs said so? Do i really want to pursue gradate studies in this field?

2. If the answer is no, well then, thanks be to the The Lord, for this outcome. If the answer is yes, then you need to sit down (with the help of your profs) and analyse why you didnt get in. This will help you in making your app stronger for next year or whenever next you decide to apply.

The answer to the first will not be easy. So take your time to figure that out. Sorry if I am being too patronizing and you already know this.

As regards, anger - I dont think we should be telling you what to feel and what not to feel. We all have bursts of anger (as evinced by my post) and sometimes it helps us with the energy it brings in its wake (very important to channelize that energy in the right way), but the sooner it washes away the better. Our best decisions are taken in a calm frame of mind.

[warpspeed]

While I understand this is a frustrating process, I think everyone needs to step away from their mindset for a moment and realize their misplaced anger. Frankly, many of you are being very immature. Internet temper tantrums aren't becoming and the energy could be better spent. Ad Coms are people too. They have families, classes, grad students, research and conferences. It's a lot of work. The wait is long and hard on all of us, but I'm sure reading 34 "I first realized I wanted to be (profession) when I was 8 years old" sops is just as painful.

[delfi]

<br />While I understand this is a frustrating process, I think everyone needs to step away from their mindset for a moment and realize their misplaced anger. Frankly, many of you are being very immature. Internet temper tantrums aren't becoming and the energy could be better spent. Ad Coms are people too. They have families, classes, grad students, research and conferences. It's a lot of work. The wait is long and hard on all of us, but I'm sure reading 34 &quot;I first realized I wanted to be (profession) when I was 8 years old&quot; sops is just as painful.<br />

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OK, thank you for your advice. Chapter closed, people!

[anthropologygeek]

Most professors today are older and when they applied it was easier to get in. If you wanted to go not only did you get in you got in anywhere you want. Don't blame them for not realizing times have change. Be glad they see you as someone they see worthy of grad school.

[Arcadian]

Most professors today are older and when they applied it was easier to get in. If you wanted to go not only did you get in you got in anywhere you want. Don't blame them for not realizing times have change. Be glad they see you as someone they see worthy of grad school.

Yeah, I have noticed that! All my professors are like, "Oh, you're applying to top ranked PhD programs? Cool, you'll get in somewhere." Despite the fact that I am a pretty average overall applicant (statistically speaking). The difference is, when they told me this, I knew not to believe them. I wasn't sure why they were telling me this misleading reassurance - I thought it was strange - but I certainly won't be angry with them if I don't get accepted. However, I do see Jane's point. Getting reassurance convinced me to apply to top-ranked programs when it might have been better to apply to mid-level programs.

But I never realized that it was somehow easier to get accepted in previous generations. Why is that?

[joops]

Yeah, I have noticed that! All my professors are like, "Oh, you're applying to top ranked PhD programs? Cool, you'll get in somewhere." Despite the fact that I am a pretty average overall applicant (statistically speaking). The difference is, when they told me this, I knew not to believe them. I wasn't sure why they were telling me this misleading reassurance - I thought it was strange - but I certainly won't be angry with them if I don't get accepted. However, I do see Jane's point. Getting reassurance convinced me to apply to top-ranked programs when it might have been better to apply to mid-level programs.

But I never realized that it was somehow easier to get accepted in previous generations. Why is that?

My admittedly unresearched hypothesis would be that more people are simply going to college nowadays and therefore more are applying to grad school. But I'm sure other factors are at play. Maybe if I actually get into grad school this can be one of my sociological pet projects.

[TMP]

Most professors today are older and when they applied it was easier to get in. If you wanted to go not only did you get in you got in anywhere you want. Don't blame them for not realizing times have change. Be glad they see you as someone they see worthy of grad school.

THIS. THIS. THIS. My UG adviser and I had a very, very long conversation recently about graduate school- the admissions process and the life of a graduate student. While she had been learning bits and pieces about it over time when I went through the process but just sitting down with her with the luxury of time for full disclosure allowed her to really see how truly different today's graduate school is. She thanked me for enlightening her because things were done really differently back then. I assured that she's not the ONLY professor who is surprised by all of this!

That's the other thing that we need to consider before getting upset with professors. It never occurred to me either because I personally made the decision to do the work of applying.

[dendrogirl]

I have every right to be angry with my profs for giving me some very bad advice. I grew up being taught that you are just as responsible for the advice that you give as those are for listening to bad advice. Moreover, it was not "solely" my decision: I was very heavily encouraged and influenced by them to pursue graduate study. I wouldn't have pursued it if they hadn't encouraged me to do so.

Your profs may not have given you bad advice. You may have seemed (may actually be!) well qualified to be accepted to the program, but with budgets being extremely tight, many schools are limiting the students they take. Plus, it could just be bad luck, sorry to say it Most grad school advice books (at least that I've read) say to apply to about 5 schools, even if you are an excellent candidate, because luck often plays into the process.

That being said, I'd probably be angry too! But angry at my luck, not my profs who believed in me and tried to give me the encouragement I needed to pursue a graduate degree.

As for jobs, I would ask your profs to write you letters of rec for the jobs you apply to: they believed you could get into grad school for a reason Tell your employers (who I think you said want you to earn a masters) that you didn't make it this round, but you've learned a lot about the process blah blah blah and you are looking forward to next year... blah blah.. convince them that you're qualified and able, but that this year just didn't work out.

Also, don't give up on a grad degree if its what you really want. To find out if its what you really want, I recommend reading "Getting what you came for: the smart student's guide to earning a master's or Ph.D." by Robert Peters.

Hope that helps!

[MadameNon]

People are fleeing back to grad school under the false assumption that it's somehow a good way to ride out the economy. Coupled with diminished financial resources in the programs and you have the most difficult few years for grad apps there ever was. I even read an article, maybe in the NY Times, that people see the humanities as more insulated from the economic crisis than, say business, so they're going back for PhDs in English rather than MBAs or something. I have no idea if that's true.

I will say, however, that I do not think the original poster's anger is entirely unjustified. I know I had the same experience two years ago and I was definitely frustrated with the advice I'd been given and the attitude that I was somehow guaranteed to get into one of the nine PhD programs I applied to (I didn't). As a somewhat naive undergraduate in a relatively small program, I didn't know. I thought I was doing the right thing by talking to my professors and trusting their advice and I took my lead from their attitude. I was absolutely blind-sided and crushed by the sweeping rejection. In hindsight, I think if they had realistically appraised the situation, they might have advised me more conservatively but you know, I was (still am) a hard worker, a great student, extremely driven, and producing good work. I am absolutely flattered that they believed in me. But you know what else? My GRE scores were average, my undergrad institution isn't super prestigious, and I was a transfer student with spotty community college transcripts from moving so often. I sent out grad applications and a month later the economy collapsed. Whoops! I came very, very close at one good program (more from my letters of rec than anything else, I'm sure) but in the end, I had to go for an MA and try again. And this time it's working out for me, but I was significantly more conservative and this time I knew how to advise myself.

I think what the original poster and I are trying to say is that as an undergraduate, I didn't even know what I didn't know, and I expected my advisers to fill me in, not to give me answers, but to make sure I knew which questions I should be asking. So I do not think it is unreasonable to expect realistic advice from them.

[Eigen]

People are fleeing back to grad school under the false assumption that it's somehow a good way to ride out the economy. Coupled with diminished financial resources in the programs and you have the most difficult few years for grad apps there ever was. I even read an article, maybe in the NY Times, that people see the humanities as more insulated from the economic crisis than, say business, so they're going back for PhDs in English rather than MBAs or something. I have no idea if that's true.

I will say, however, that I do not think the original poster's anger is entirely unjustified. I know I had the same experience two years ago and I was definitely frustrated with the advice I'd been given and the attitude that I was somehow guaranteed to get into one of the nine PhD programs I applied to (I didn't). As a somewhat naive undergraduate in a relatively small program, I didn't know. I thought I was doing the right thing by talking to my professors and trusting their advice and I took my lead from their attitude. I was absolutely blind-sided and crushed by the sweeping rejection. In hindsight, I think if they had realistically appraised the situation, they might have advised me more conservatively but you know, I was (still am) a hard worker, a great student, extremely driven, and producing good work. I am absolutely flattered that they believed in me. But you know what else? My GRE scores were average, my undergrad institution isn't super prestigious, and I was a transfer student with spotty community college transcripts from moving so often. I sent out grad applications and a month later the economy collapsed. Whoops! I came very, very close at one good program (more from my letters of rec than anything else, I'm sure) but in the end, I had to go for an MA and try again. And this time it's working out for me, but I was significantly more conservative and this time I knew how to advise myself.

I think what the original poster and I are trying to say is that as an undergraduate, I didn't even know what I didn't know, and I expected my advisers to fill me in, not to give me answers, but to make sure I knew which questions I should be asking. So I do not think it is unreasonable to expect realistic advice from them.

It wasn't the original poster who made those points.

I think a lot of you that are focusing on the fact that "admissions is a part of their job" have it only partially right... It is a "service" position they fill in a rotating basis. None of your application fees go to paying anything for the Adcom- I think it all gets sucked up at the college/university level at most schools.

And how long you want them to take also factors in how well you want them to pay attention to your application, and how many people you want to read it.

That said, prompt notification of the first "rejections" certainly isn't the top thing on any departments mind. They're focusing on the people they are trying to attract, not the people that didn't make the first cut. And honestly, that's perfectly understandable to me.

I know people don't like it when I compare grad school applications to the job market, but it's extremely common not to ever *get* a notification that you're not in the running for a job you applied for. Most companies don't think it worth their time to notify anyone but the people they want to interview.

[jaxzwolf]

Most professors today are older and when they applied it was easier to get in. If you wanted to go not only did you get in you got in anywhere you want. Don't blame them for not realizing times have changed.

I had trouble with this, too, last year. When I was in UG and talking about grad school, my two primary advisers talked about the process with me often. I'd heard plenty of stories from both of them about what to do when, and what to expect afterward. So I had it in my head going in that it would be a breeze-- contact professors the summer beforehand, pick schools that interest me most, apply in the fall, be invited for visits/interviews in the winter, and if I'm interviewed I'm basically guaranteed an acceptance after that. Then spend a long, hard couple of weeks choosing between a bunch of offers to great schools. At that point, they definitely didn't realize that times had changed a bit since they'd applied, and I wasn't familiar enough with the process to know they were wrong.

I found out pretty quickly, after being rejected across the board my first go-round. I was confused as to why nothing they told me was working as they'd said it would. I wasn't invited for interviews, I didn't get any offers, and there was no choosing to be done, period. They were confused, too, giving me the whole, "I just don't understand" gambit, until they started research today's process more thoroughly and realized that applying to grad school now isn't the same as it was twenty or thirty (or even ten, or five) years ago.

This year I was much more prepared for the application process, and I know my chances of admission are slim, so I take every correspondence with potential advisers, interview invites, etc. seriously and gratefully. As for my professors? They're still feeding me "you're going to get in!" lines, so I take everything they say with a grain of salt.

Bottom line: you're the one who is applying, it's your responsibility to understand the process and the odds, and at the very end, although you'll likely thank your recommenders, it's your responsibility to do the work it will take to get an acceptance.

[MadameNon]

It wasn't the original poster who made those points.

I think a lot of you that are focusing on the fact that "admissions is a part of their job" have it only partially right... It is a "service" position they fill in a rotating basis. None of your application fees go to paying anything for the Adcom- I think it all gets sucked up at the college/university level at most schools.

And how long you want them to take also factors in how well you want them to pay attention to your application, and how many people you want to read it.

That said, prompt notification of the first "rejections" certainly isn't the top thing on any departments mind. They're focusing on the people they are trying to attract, not the people that didn't make the first cut. And honestly, that's perfectly understandable to me.

I know people don't like it when I compare grad school applications to the job market, but it's extremely common not to ever *get* a notification that you're not in the running for a job you applied for. Most companies don't think it worth their time to notify anyone but the people they want to interview.

It wasn't the original poster who expressed anger for what was perceived as bad advice? Because I'm pretty sure it was.

[Eigen]

It wasn't the original poster who expressed anger for what was perceived as bad advice? Because I'm pretty sure it was.

If you took the time to go back and look at Delfi's original post, you would see it wasn't. It was StarlaJane about halfway down the first page (Post #14) who was expressing anger about bad advice.

Edited March 5, 2011 by Eigen

[MadameNon]

If you took the time to go back and look at Delfi's original post, you would see it wasn't. It was StarlaJane about halfway down the first page (Post #14) who was expressing anger about bad advice.

My mistake. Apologies. Thanks for pointing it out.

I still feel like my post apropos, but to StarlaJane's (and it seems that most of this thread shifted to her points, anyway).

[The Dudester]

I had trouble with this, too, last year. When I was in UG and talking about grad school, my two primary advisers talked about the process with me often. I'd heard plenty of stories from both of them about what to do when, and what to expect afterward. So I had it in my head going in that it would be a breeze-- contact professors the summer beforehand, pick schools that interest me most, apply in the fall, be invited for visits/interviews in the winter, and if I'm interviewed I'm basically guaranteed an acceptance after that. Then spend a long, hard couple of weeks choosing between a bunch of offers to great schools. At that point, they definitely didn't realize that times had changed a bit since they'd applied, and I wasn't familiar enough with the process to know they were wrong.

I found out pretty quickly, after being rejected across the board my first go-round. I was confused as to why nothing they told me was working as they'd said it would. I wasn't invited for interviews, I didn't get any offers, and there was no choosing to be done, period. They were confused, too, giving me the whole, "I just don't understand" gambit, until they started research today's process more thoroughly and realized that applying to grad school now isn't the same as it was twenty or thirty (or even ten, or five) years ago.

This is interesting. The MA department I am coming out of is relatively young. It had one of those shifts where the older guard retired and was replaced in a wave. Consequently, many of them were hired in the last 4-8 years. They've given me spot on advice about the PhD application process, what to expect, the job market, etc. So the disappointments have been easier to handle. I can see how an older department wouldn't know how to handle that.

[wtncffts]

I know people don't like it when I compare grad school applications to the job market, but it's extremely common not to ever *get* a notification that you're not in the running for a job you applied for. Most companies don't think it worth their time to notify anyone but the people they want to interview.

Not saying it's an inappropriate comparison, but there is one big difference: you don't pay to apply for a job. If people had to pay $100 every time they applied for a job, it damn well better be the case that they notify you.

[Eigen]

Not saying it's an inappropriate comparison, but there is one big difference: you don't pay to apply for a job. If people had to pay $100 every time they applied for a job, it damn well better be the case that they notify you.

Oh, I completely agree that you should be notified... And I don't think there are many cases of a grad school *not* notifying people of rejections. Just contrasting the cases. As many others have said, it's still a bit early to be angry that you haven't heard, imo. I'd give it at least until April 1.

I think a lot of people also forget how many layers there are to the application process- the administrative layer (at the college, likely) that takes the fee- then the admins in the department that collect all the application materials- and then the adcoms who read and make decisions- and then back to the college to approve admissions- and then back to the department admins to send out letters- and then back to the college and college admins to send out official funding offers. It can take a while to get it all done, and especially done properly. I know all of our Adcom members do it mostly over their lunch breaks/in their offtime in the evening since they're too busy to do it the rest of the day.

[vodka]

at least some of y'all had bad advice that was at least encouraging. I asked a professor for a LOR, and I figured he would write me a great one, because according to him I wrote one of the better papers in his seminar class. Instead, he told me I was a terrible candidate and felt uncomfortable writing a letter for me, and tried to discourage me from applying to doctoral programs. He tried to route me into terminal MA programs to improve the "deficiencies" in my application, but after I told him I couldn't afford that route he just shrugged.

now, my application wasn't perfect, but in my view there weren't any serious problems with it. I was really hurt and annoyed by his reaction, but I moved on and got great letters from other professors I was close to. They didn't think the small issues in my application would hold me back, and they were really encouraging, so I knew I was doing the right thing by ignoring him. I was validated when I was admitted to a great program (with funding and a stipend!) a few weeks ago.

The professor who denied me is senior in the department, and highly respected by a lot of people. If I hadn't had the support of the other professors I probably would've taken his advice and not applied this cycle at all. On the plus side, it's kind of a blessing he refused LOR outright, instead of accepting my request and writing me a bad one....

[flotsam]

My uncle is a professor at a well-known college. When he was applying for PhD programs, he was considered to be a topnotch candidate. He was offered admission plus all the grants and stipends to get him through 5 years comfortably in some of the most prestigious colleges in the country. A million years ago. As a professor now, he recognizes that the competition has changed many of the rules for acceptance and there is a good possibility even he would have difficulty getting into his preferred grad schools in this academic/economic climate. His advice to his students that seek to go on to grad school:

1. If you have talent and the inclination, start getting your references and potential LOR's lined up asap. You can never start too early in reaching out to make those connections.

2. If your prof's are encouraging you to go on to grad school, they must have a good reason. While their advice is not a guarantee for admission, do NOT limit yourself to just a couple of choices. Shop around and give yourself a good range of grad schools to apply to, ones that you would be happy to go to.

3. If you don't make it into grad school the first year you apply, look at your academic resume and spend the next year volunteering in labs, helping profs with research, taking extra classes, and try to get a job in some area related to your field. If it's a dream to go on to grad school, try again.

It's okay to feel angry, hurt, betrayed, disgusted, anxious...but use that energy to get where you want to be.

Best of luck to all of you. You've worked hard to get this far...

The End!

Edited March 6, 2011 by flotsam