Are my advisor's actions NORMAL??

[MoleMocha]

I'm at a loss here. My advisor is a relatively new, up-and-coming star in the department. She is truly brilliant, but she is also very erratic and sometimes completely irrational. She has blown up at me twice in my two years there so far. The first time she had a valid complaint, which I acknowledged, but I felt like she could have handled it better. The second time I felt was completely irrational, she basically called me a liar when I was telling the truth and wrote me a pretty nasty email.

In light of all of that, I feel like I am walking on eggshells and always trying to please her. Her reviews of my work this semester have been pretty positive. However, she has a definite pattern - she will review my work and tell me it is good and suggest minor changes. I start feeling confident in myself thinking that I have pleased her. Then I send back a second edit and she sends it back just RIPPED apart. This always comes as a shock, since she had me thinking the previous edit was pretty good. She will even rewrite things that she corrected the first time.

She just did this to me with a presentation I am to give on Monday. She told me two weeks ago that my presentation was great. I sent her a "final" version on Friday, and she sent it back Friday night with an email saying that it needs a lot of work before Monday and she was "disappointed" that it hadn't progressed more. Wait - didn't you just tell me that it was good?

Every time she pulls these things, it just KILLS my confidence. I was feeling good about my presentation on Monday, and now I'm dreading it and have so much stress and anxiety I'm about to puke.

The only thing that makes me feel a little better is that she does this to her other students too, which makes me think it's her problem, not mine. I want to listen to valid criticism, but I am starting to feel like I am being micro-managed. It also makes me feel like I'm not good enough, like maybe she's waiting for me to get it "perfect," then has to step in at the last minute because I'm an abject failure.

What should I do? I don't know if I'm going to make it through grad school like this.

[unitname]

I had a similar problem. No one should be subject to such treatment. I am being serious. Contact someone higher up and explain the situation.

[unitname]

This person will come back to haunt you in the future if you don't do something about it now. These are the types of people who don't like to see their students succeed. It is so strange. I can totally relate, this brings back so many horrifying memories of undergrad.

In the meantime, I will say this: do your best to stand up for yourself. If she tells you its good, then rips it apart, make sure you say "I am confused because you previously said it was good.". Make this person meet their match. If you don't stand up for yourself they will continue to abuse you. I wish I could go back and do so many things differently! Its hard because you feel like they are in control of something precious to you, and you don't want to rock the boat. TRUST when I say, you have power in this situation. DO something!

And furthermore, contact the Dean and COMPLAIN! If you can, get other students to do it with you. You need to be heard or she will be in charge for many years to come. i.e.: Mine was in charge for 20 years. because NO ONE EVER SAID ANYTHING!!! Yea, do something.

I have so many thoughts on this! Don't let this lady make you feel like you're not good enough! I feel like we are talking about the same person, eery! She only nit-picks to make you feel less than you are, its a power and control thing. My entire undergrad cohorts in the department individually had the same exact problem with our adviser, and we ALL never said anything until graduation, where we all realized she had been doing this to everyone. The only reason they continue is because no one has challenged them or scared them. Wow, I have so much to say. I am getting so angry! haha!

Edited February 18, 2012 by mjj58

[ktel]

You will burn a lot of bridges if you go over her head and complain to the dean. Her behavior is a bit inappropriate but it would be extremely unprofessional to go over her head without dealing with her first.

You obviously have some sort of evidence that she OK's the first draft and then tears apart the second draft. Go to her with this and tell her that you would appreciate a lot more time to fix things if she sees something wrong, rather than saying it's fine and then changing her mind. Bring this up with her every time this happens, and if it doesn't stop, have one last discussion with her and then go over her head if necessary. You need to work it out with her as much as possible though

[fuzzylogician]

Does "relatively new, up and coming" mean not tenured yet? If so, she should have a vested interest in setting the record straight, and her career could get hurt if it's not and you complain to the dean. As ktel says, you need to play things right in order to not burn any bridges. You want to improve your situation but if you cause damage to a successful academic's career by not following the necessary steps to correct whatever is wrong, people will remember that. Start by having a conversation with her about her advising style. Tell her it hurts your confidence when she tears down a second draft after saying good things about the first. You might find out that she thinks she is doing everything right and helping you to improve your work, not hurting you in any way. If the situation continues, seek help first within your department: approach the DGS or the department head. Only if that doesn't work should you take this matter outside your department.

[StrangeLight]

a couple things.

i agree on NOT going over her head to the dean. you will make NO friends among the faculty in your department if you do that. other professors won't want to work with you and your current advisor won't work with you anymore either if you run to the dean before trying to sort this out internally.

her behaviour is not without some fault, but there are a few things to consider: how substantially do you change your project between the first "good" draft and the second "bad" one? sometimes the work you do to fix something good can actually generate more problems. she also may be noticing problems on a second read-through that she didn't see on the first look, which is normal. and correcting her own additions is also normal, because as writers we are supposed to self-edit and not every suggestion she makes will ultimately be a good one (and hopefully we will all recognize that in our own writing).

story time! when i was working on my MA, i showed my advisor a full outline that she loved. i then executed the outline to her specifications and on a quick read through, she said it was all good, no worries, she'd give me a full edit in a few days. then, two weeks later she emailed me letting me know she'd re-read my paper carefully 3 times because there were such huge problems and i had to do a full re-write. total do-over. on an outline she had enthusiastically endorsed. and you know what? she was right. the original draft WAS a mess. but neither of us could see that from the outline version or even from a cursory reading of the full paper.

my guess, however, is that isn't exactly what's happening here. i have seen professors sabotage their own students. they hold them back for years at a time. they completely derail talented students. some stuff is deemed brilliant, then immediately ripped apart. this is not a constructive working relationship in the long term for you, particularly if it attacks your confidence without ever rebuilding it.

i suggest speaking to the director of graduate studies about this problem. BE SPECIFIC. it's the DGS's job to try and sort these things out, so don't go in there and make things seem better than they are. be blunt. the DGS knows this professor and (since this happens to other students) probably knows about this particular issue. he/she can help you navigate your way out of it.

i also feel like some students (especially the best ones) need to be broken in a little. we arrive in grad school having never failed. but in order to grow as thinkers and scholars, we need to really push ourselves, which means (for some of us) that we need to be told our best work still isn't good and then we need to dig deep, move past it, and produce something even better. not every student would benefit from this sort of process, but in retrospect i feel like it's made me MUCH better at what i do. it's possible that this sort of logic is informing your advisor's actions. that doesn't make it healthy or normal, but it means it might not be malicious either. in any case, it's clearly not doing you any good (whatever her intentions) so i suggest speaking to your DGS about how to either build a better working relationship with your advisor or to switch to someone else. good luck.

[MoleMocha]

Thanks everyone SO MUCH for the advice! I really appreciate it. I have no intention at this time of going over my advisor's head or complaining to anyone else (other than her other students, ha!) about her behavior. I do still very much want to work with her, and I certainly don't wish to ruin her career! She is tenured, but is not yet a full Prof so I think she does have a vested interest in making sure our work is absolutely perfect. However that is frustrating for me, because I feel like my own voice is lost somewhere in the process.

I wanted to present this issue to you guys because I have a tendency (especially when my self-esteem is down) to think that whatever my superiors do is "normal" and the way it should be happening, and I'm just not good enough. I'm glad to hear that I'm not crazy in thinking that this is not a desirable way to handle students.

i also feel like some students (especially the best ones) need to be broken in a little. we arrive in grad school having never failed. but in order to grow as thinkers and scholars, we need to really push ourselves, which means (for some of us) that we need to be told our best work still isn't good and then we need to dig deep, move past it, and produce something even better. not every student would benefit from this sort of process, but in retrospect i feel like it's made me MUCH better at what i do. it's possible that this sort of logic is informing your advisor's actions. that doesn't make it healthy or normal, but it means it might not be malicious either. in any case, it's clearly not doing you any good (whatever her intentions) so i suggest speaking to your DGS about how to either build a better working relationship with your advisor or to switch to someone else. good luck.

I TOTALLY agree with this - I have definitely gotten better in grad school, once I realized that the work that passed before wasn't going to be good enough now.

I know I have to take some licks to get to where I'm going. I just wish she would do the tough edits earlier, instead of panicking us at the last minute. She told me my presentation was "good" a week ago. If she had really edited it then, I would have had an entire week to work on making it better, instead of panicking about it all weekend.

[StrangeLight]

that last part is the sort of stuff you need to communicate with her. she may not even realize what she is doing when giving you good feedback in round one and making you panic with negative feedback in round two.

conversely (just for a bit of perspective) i know a prof that always give the harshest critiques up front so students can catch and fix their mistakes early. while this probably saves them time in the end, it also has made some of his advisees feel as though NOTHING they do is right, and that they only complete "adequate" work (it's actually very strong work, but they don't see it) after he tells them what needs to be fixed.

my guess is your advisor thinks her style is working for you, so let her know it isn't and maybe you two will develop a more helpful feedback system.

[Eigen]

One other thing (and Strangelight touched on this) is that she may be reading to a different level of detail on a "first draft" that she says is good, and a subsequent draft that she expects to be more polished. It's something that ideally she'd be communicating, but it might explain some of the behavior.

[unitname]

I don't think that talking to the Dean would be going over anyone's head. In fact, I think it would help you. You could call for a meeting with her involved. I'm not suggesting tattling at all. Well, good luck!

[Eigen]

Going to the Dean skips like 3 intermediate steps.

If you felt it needed to be eacalated, you'd go to the director of graduate studies for your program, then a department chair, then the office of graduate studies, then an assistant dean (likely the one in charge of graduate programs) and then maybe the Dean.

There is almost no situation in which it would be proper to bring something like this straight to the Dean, and doing so would make you look clueless and like you were over reacting, even if it was a serious and major problem.

[rising_star]

Agreed about talking to her about the problem. And, if you can't resolve it, get a new advisor. You're not going to make it through your program if your advisor constantly destroys your confidence.

[Eigen]

Agreed about talking to her about the problem. And, if you can't resolve it, get a new advisor. You're not going to make it through your program if your advisor constantly destroys your confidence.

I'll second this. But since you said you really do want to work with them, you might also consider how you can look at her actions in a way that doesn't hurt your confidence so much, seeing it as an issue of hers more than yours.

[StrangeLight]

the thought of going to the dean because your professor is too harsh in their criticism of your drafts is ridiculous. i know the OP won't do this, but to everyone else... DON'T EVER DO THIS. holy jeebus.

[ktel]

I don't think that talking to the Dean would be going over anyone's head. In fact, I think it would help you. You could call for a meeting with her involved. I'm not suggesting tattling at all. Well, good luck!

Tattling is EXACTLY what you're suggesting, regardless of whether she's at the meeting or not.

[unitname]

ktel,

Maybe I am not making myself clear. Obviously this person needs to speak explicitly to someone about her problems, whether its the Adviser herself, other students, etc. In my PERSONAL experience none of this worked and I ended up getting screwed after I graduated. The person made my life a living hell and I was afraid to even apply to graduate school. I finally spoke to a different Professor, the new Chair of my dept, and she suggested that I write a letter to the Dean describing my experiences. I have yet to do so, but one main difference between myself and MoleMocha is that I don't work with the lady anymore, so I see the concern with going to the Dean in that particular situation. I was suggesting something that was suggested to ME by a department head. I'm sure there are more ideas to go around. I wouldn't call it tattling. I look at it as standing up for oneself. If this poster's situation was nearly as severe as mine, I would definitely speak to someone who is able to change the situation. Remember, this is academia and it is a professional environment. If someone is acting unprofessionally they need to be addressed.

If it is not a severe situation, then deal with it, and quit complaining.

PS

I am speaking to a personal matter that is very similar to the situation described, so my gut instincts are based on what I experienced. It wasn't just a person who criticized writing. It was someone who made me feel like a pathetic excuse for a student, stalked me, criticized my work and ideas, and told me not to apply to graduate school.

Edited February 19, 2012 by mjj58

[ktel]

Indeed you did not make yourself clear. What you are trying to do is impose your personal circumstances on the OP, when in fact you have no idea whether your situations are similar or not. Sure, there are probably elements in common, but to assume that the situations are identical is a bit of a stretch. You saw the commonalities, got really emotional, and then tried to give extreme advice without explaining where it was coming from. That's the main issue.

[unitname]

My advice was my advice based on my experience from the get-go, and my post clearly stated that. We can argue all day and night. The OP is obviously not going to the Dean with their problems. I don't feel I have to disclaim every one of my clauses with "this is purely my advice from my own experience, I hope I'm making that clear!". Only a knucklehead wouldn't weigh their options. I simply was offering one.

To offer a conclusion: No, MoleMocha, I don't think that your adviser's actions are normal.

Edited February 19, 2012 by mjj58

[Eigen]

Indeed you did not make yourself clear. What you are trying to do is impose your personal circumstances on the OP, when in fact you have no idea whether your situations are similar or not. Sure, there are probably elements in common, but to assume that the situations are identical is a bit of a stretch. You saw the commonalities, got really emotional, and then tried to give extreme advice without explaining where it was coming from. That's the main issue.

Very, very good post. Sadly, my finger hit the down rather than up vote... Someone mind countering me?

Bottom line, mjj, you gave shockingly bad advice to the OP based on dissimilar personal experiences with few, if any caveats. Your advice would have made the situation worse, and we all want to make sure no one in the future reads this and tries it.

[MoleMocha]

Hey guys! I truly appreciate everyone's advice. I think mjj is starting to feel bad, and I just want to point out - it is completely natural for people to interpret situations from their own experiences. If a friend told you about trouble in their relationship, you would probably have completely different advice for them if you were going through a divorce than if you were in a happy relationship. Let's lighten up a bit - if someone has made it to graduate school, let's hope to God they have the mental capacity to decide on their own whether going to the Dean is a good solution in their particular situation. I'm sure that if mjj was directed to the Dean, their situation was exponentially worse than mine!

That said - I've been thinking a lot about this situation. We emailed back and forth all weekend, and I think my presentation is to a good place. However, I think my advisor is really concerned with US making HER look good. I think she wants us to be her, to write like her and speak like her. I don't think that's really fair. I think she should be nurturing our talents, not bulldozing over them to make sure we don't "screw up." I don't mind being pushed to improve, but it's like she's so afraid of us making her look bad, it makes us incredibly nervous. She will visibly get angry at us when we aren't doing well. I'm downright afraid to look at her when I'm giving presentations!

I can bring up her style of editing drafts, but I'm not really sure how to bring up the fact that she makes us so nervous and kills our confidence. I have been talking to her other students and they feel the same way.

Well, thanks again everyone! I'm very grateful for all of the replies. It helps me feel a little more sane :-) Now wish me luck on my presentation tomorrow!!!

[Andsowego]

MoleMocha - Good luck on your prezzie! I'm looking forward to hearing how it goes.

And just to add my two cents... I echo what others have said. Start by having a well thought out conversation with the Suspect about your concerns with her feedback style. Any good prof will take the time to really listen and be proactive in how they work with you in the future. Focus on facts in the conversation, not feelings. This is extremely important in my opinion. Facts can't usually be denied. Feelings can be completely disregarded. Start with an objective discussion, and see what happens. If it continues to be a problem in the long term, and you feel that you've exhausted your constructive approach with the Suspect, then (and only then) would I recommend going over the Suspect's head and having a conversation with whomever is next up the food chain in your department. Also, as much as it emotionally helps to vent with other grad students, tread lightly. This stuff can come back to bite your a** hard if you say too much to the wrong people.

[unitname]

Thanks MoleMocha =) I do think my situation must have been that much worse.

Good luck

[TakeruK]

Good luck!!

Another thing to add to a lot of things others have already said: There are sometimes confidential peer support groups for students in these situations. Usually they are run by the Graduate School or, more likely, the Graduate Student Society/Association/whatever you have. They could be a good source for venting frustrations as well as getting tips on how to handle things, and sometimes even to get someone on your side if you end up having a confrontation.

[NeuroGal]

I see this situation a little differently based on my own experience (I have publications and have given numerous presentations). When writing publications, I WANT my mentor to shred it apart. It doesn't matter if I agree with it or not, it is necessary to teach me. I believe you are looking for a pat on the head when the point of her mentoring is to make your work better. This will prepare you far better than simply giving you positive reinforcement and saying that it's perfect. The reality is that drafts are almost never perfect and you will have to take a stand for what you believe it. On my last presentation, my mentor at the time gave me advice and he kept wanting to insert things or change things. I finally told him that his idea was very helpful but I respectfully disagreed.

Furthermore, she is preparing you for reviewers which can be ridiculously harsh on your papers. Understanding your needs versus what her role is as a mentor would be helpful for you to not internalize the criticsm. If you need positive reinforcement and encouragement, you should ask her for it. Ask her things like, "What are the stregnths of this paper/presentation?" Be upfront and tell her that understanding the stregnths as well as the weaknesses is valuable for you to improve and maintain morale. If your morale is dropping because of her harshness, use that as an opportunity to assert yourself and tell her. I've had to do this before. I worded it something like, "I appreciate all of your effort as it is helping me create a quality paper. However, some of the comments seem harsh or overly critical to me which is affecting my confidence. It would be helpful if you could strike a balance between the positives and negatives."

She's a new mentor so she is relatively inexperienced. She is probably completely unaware of how she is coming across. You could significantly help her and help yourself by providing her constructive criticsm.

[Sigaba]

I think readers of this thread need to pay very careful attention to the differing levels of experience in actual graduate programs when assessing the value of the advice offered.

Those of you who have not yet gotten your feet wet as graduate students might profit from considering the possibility that the rules of the game are much different than what you''ve experienced so far. One should also consider the possibility that until you've gotten a sense of these rules, the tactics that appear to work for undergraduates will have the opposite impact for graduate students even though the situations appear the same or "that much worse."