Slate Article

[bgk]

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/culturebox/2012/04/grad_school_admissions_grad_cafe_exposes_gen_y_s_job_search_angst_.html

Thoughts?

[CarlieE]

Uhm.... I thought this sentence in the article was pretty "dumb": "It [grad school] makes worries about grown-up responsibilities like money and promotions and rent melt away".

Also, the writer didn't focus on the good assurances lots of people, including myself, have gotten from gradcafe. This site (and all other fora) are about catharsis. The article smacked of smugness to me.

Huh. Oh well.

Edited April 20, 2012 by anthroDork

[TypeA]

Man, this article misses the mark on so many levels. I've never gotten vibes from this forum that people are trying to avoid the "workaday world"... quite the contrary, we seem to love discussing our various motivations (almost ad nauseam). Also, focusing so heavily on the results survey is inane.

[Behavioral]

Man, this article misses the mark on so many levels. I've never gotten vibes from this forum that people are trying to avoid the "workaday world"... quite the contrary, we seem to love discussing our various motivations (almost ad nauseam). Also, focusing so heavily on the results survey is inane.

I don't know about you, but I'm definitely avoiding the workaday world. I had my taste of management consulting and hated it--bring on the academia!

[ktel]

I will say there was an element of not wanting to find a job when I was applying to grad school. More of it was I wanted a certain type of job, and thought that this would be the way to get it.

[TypeA]

I don't know about you, but I'm definitely avoiding the workaday world. I had my taste of management consulting and hated it--bring on the academia!

Ha, fair enough, although I imagine your motivations also include a desire to do research and/or teach--not exclusively real-world avoidance (which is what this article seemed to insinuate, at least to me). I suppose I'm speaking from the perspective of having haunted the Government Affairs/Public Health forums, with far fewer people interested in academic careers long-term.

[TropicalCharlie]

The article only talks about grad cafe from perspectives of people who did not find the forum helpful and omits the point of view from those who have found it useful. You take what you want from the forum and ignore the rest. It doesn't take anything more than common sense to figure out which threads are bs and unhelpful.

[mandarin.orange]

"The escape I dreamed of is only an illusion. Airy academia will not save me from the grind of being an adult. Rather than magic citadels where you can weather the recession and mute its related stresses, Grad School is now part of a larger calculation—one in which love of learning defers to crummy real-world concerns, just like in the rest of post-college life."

What does her definition of "crummy real-world concerns" entail, exactly? My examples of that would include plenty of things my cohort and I still cope with - classmates who are parents of small children, friends struggling with extreme medical conditions, the uniquely academic issue of long-distance relationships (4 in my cohort). And my windshield got cracked last week. Is academia supposed to insulate you from all that?

If Grad Cafe is responsible for dispelling her naive illusions about academia, I say that is a win!

[Behavioral]

Ha, fair enough, although I imagine your motivations also include a desire to do research and/or teach--not exclusively real-world avoidance (which is what this article seemed to insinuate, at least to me). I suppose I'm speaking from the perspective of having haunted the Government Affairs/Public Health forums, with far fewer people interested in academic careers long-term.

Of course. I had the intentions of eventually applying to PhD programs at some point or another (I was involved in a bevvy of research as an undergrad, did two honors theses, and took some doctoral seminars), but wanted to make some money post-grad first--maybe 3 years or so. It was only after 5 or so months that I realized I hated my job and wanted back in a school ASAP. My letter writers weren't the happiest since they asked me earlier that year if they should start preparing their references for me, but I told them they had 2+ years before they should start drafting--they ended up each having maybe 3 weeks before the first deadline came up!

Anyway, I love research. I also simultaneously hate my non-research job options (double majored in joint math/econ and psychology--there really isn't too much outside of business, analytics, and programming that I can do that doesn't involve research). It's a win-win with me going back to school in a discipline with high starting academic salaries.

[mirandaw]

I'm definitely not applying to grad school as a way to avoid the workplace. After being unemployed or severely underemployed for almost 2 years, my partner told me it was definitely time to take the next step in my career development, rather than waiting like we had originally planned. As someone experiencing this outside the confines of academia (been out of school for a couple of years, first generation post secondary as it is, no other friends currently applying) forums like grad cafe were very helpful in feeling like I had community support.

[Xanthan]

"It [grad school] makes worries about grown-up responsibilities like money and promotions and rent melt away"

Whew! I am so relieved! I mean, I have so few responsibilities as a grad student now. Just this week, I've had a final, a poster session, a paper presentation, a meeting with my program director, multiple administrative issues, 10 hours of class, lab work, training on a million dollar scientific instrument, and preparing for a meeting with my future advisor hashing out what I'm going to be working on for the next several years. Gee, it really is nice to have no responsibilities!

PS: Grad students don't worry about rent? I suspect my landlord would be shocked to hear that.

[Ennue]

If Grad Cafe is responsible for dispelling her naive illusions about academia, I say that is a win!

You said that better than I ever could.

[pinkrobot]

"The escape I dreamed of is only an illusion. Airy academia will not save me from the grind of being an adult. Rather than magic citadels where you can weather the recession and mute its related stresses, Grad School is now part of a larger calculation—one in which love of learning defers to crummy real-world concerns, just like in the rest of post-college life."

What does her definition of "crummy real-world concerns" entail, exactly? My examples of that would include plenty of things my cohort and I still cope with - classmates who are parents of small children, friends struggling with extreme medical conditions, the uniquely academic issue of long-distance relationships (4 in my cohort). And my windshield got cracked last week. Is academia supposed to insulate you from all that?

If Grad Cafe is responsible for dispelling her naive illusions about academia, I say that is a win!

Chime. I said basically this same thing on our thread about this article over in the Lit forum.

(Ed. because on my first try I did something weird with the quote function)

Edited April 21, 2012 by pinkrobot

[mandarin.orange]

Actually, when I started my M.S., I was fascinated and obsessed with accounts of long-distance backpacking (think Appalachian Trail, Pacific Crest Trail, etc.) I viewed this undertaking as my eventual saving and redemption from the grind of publish-or-perish academia. Perhaps that's more in line with the type of low-rent, no-job, insulating lifestyle this author is looking for.

[Loimographia]

Man, this article misses the mark on so many levels. I've never gotten vibes from this forum that people are trying to avoid the "workaday world"... quite the contrary, we seem to love discussing our various motivations (almost ad nauseam). Also, focusing so heavily on the results survey is inane.

That's kind of the point of the article, no? That the author held this naive concept of what not just grad school, but also what grad school applicants think of grad school: he thought grad applicants were just running away from their worries, and discovered, through this site, that that's not the case at all. Grad students aren't just "ivory tower aspirants" but people enmeshed in stresses equal to the "real world." I think it's also thus making the point that many people believe that academia is an escape from the "real world" but that this view is just as naive as thinking that applying to grad school is easier than finding a job. The neuroses here have revealed that applying to academia is just as intense as finding a job (and I think many here may argue that it's even more difficult), and that academia is a "real job" too. So, as mandarin.orange says, it's a win!

For those saying that the article doesn't mention all the support people have gotten from gradcafe, that's because the article isn't actually a review of the website. It's exclusively about how many posts expose the certain reality that many are ignorant to: that applying to grad school is hard. So the posts of support are irrelevant to the real thesis of the article =/

Last I looked at the comments section of the article, I think most of the other readers kind of missed the point of the article as well. Half of the comments are actually pretty much: Don't go into debt for it! (Though most don't seem to understand that PhD students actually get paid...) Don't go if you can't get a job afterwards! Don't go if it's not your passion, you'll hate yourself in 10 years! I think it's a little funny, really, that they're somewhat criticizing those who use this site... when it's the exact same things we're all yelling at one another here, too.

[MaxiJaz]

I agree with most of Loimographia's points. Bear in mind it's an article on Slate..and I'm sure other users who have spent time on the site will know, a lot of the articles come with provoking headings, but really only substantiate a provocative article with few, generalized points based on the author's opinion. Ultimately, the author came in with a fixed opinion of the grad search and many grad students, found a talking point - the results page, and did her job. The neurotic argument is a bit harsh. I mean, this is 2012, the really isn't any excuse to be in the dark over any job or position, and I'm sure every job seeker with a basic understanding of the internet has used it at some point for advice related to interview tips, positions, information about a city etc.

With that said, her article doesn't bother me. It's the opinion of someone from the outside, who had nothing to gain from it. Ultimately she misses a lot of points, like how the website helps a lot of international students, and people moving into new cities, apart from just the neurotic grad/expectant grad.

[wine in coffee cups]

As the obsessive chronicle of yeses and noes reveals, the process of finding a masters or doctorate program carries with it a sense of desperation—one actually reminiscent of the job search.

God forbid people approach the process permitting entry into their chosen career in a professional, informed way.

Those who stick with academia will continue applying for things for the rest of their careers: postdocs, tenure track positions, grants. May as well get good at it now and may as well know what to expect in the future.

[nessa]

professor of importance?? someone has apparently not lurked long enough...

[antecedent]

professor of importance?? someone has apparently not lurked long enough...

That's exactly what I thought! I was like "dude, I correctly defined that in the Linguistics forum less than a month ago. CLEARLY someone hasn't done her due diligence."

[ANDS!]

I'm not sure why people are fanning their foreheads in shock at the notion that some people on this site are, gasp, attending graduate school partly because it postpones "adulthood". There are certainly people who are very serious about attending graduate school, but there also is a good chance that a lot of the decision to do so is motivated by an uncertain future.

[CarlieE]

I'm not sure why people are fanning their foreheads in shock at the notion that some people on this site are, gasp, attending graduate school partly because it postpones "adulthood". There are certainly people who are very serious about attending graduate school, but there also is a good chance that a lot of the decision to do so is motivated by an uncertain future.

Learning how to deal with "uncertain future" is dealing with adulthood. It's facing up to the fluidity of life. Grad school doesn't postpone "adulthood" at all - it is simply an alternate route into that stage in life. Being mature enough to realize that what you want out of life might involve having a low-income lifestyle and years of dedicated study IS an "adult" decision. And even if people enter grad school NOT knowing this, they quickly learn and then, isn't confronting THAT kind of disappointment equally an indication of maturity and "adulthood"? I think so.

IMO I think the reason I'm offended about this article is that it promotes the idea that "adulthood" is defined within specific parameters and isn't an accurate portrayal of reality. "Adulthood" is defined in multiple ways and not everyone takes the same routes in life, so "adulthood" can and IS dealt with in just as many ways. Whoever said that "adulthood" was defined only within specific parameters ie. a high-paying job, a mortgage, marriage and kids etc?

it's not WHAT you do that necessarily makes one an "adult" but how you do it. IE. one could be a world-traveler and backpacker all one's life without a fixed income or residence but have incredible maturity having dealt with uncertain situations, physical danger etc or one could hole up in a office cubicle, never leave one's home town, but own a house, SUV, spouse and 4 kids (follow all the "rules" of adulthood) but then behave incredibly immaturely...by say flipping out over losing one's job and going postal. Again, IMO it's how it's done, not always what is done.

[triplebogey]

Again, IMO it's how it's done, not always what is done.

THIS. Great thought. Anyone who thinks grad school is a postponement of adulthood, as sincere as their intention may be, has no idea what actually goes on there. How about the financial struggles many of us have? Learning how to budget responsibly on what we're allotted - or borrow - is a mighty task. How about the other type of budgeting we have to do - budgeting time to get massive amounts of different projects done? Or the interpersonal skills that are a must for dealing with some of the...how shall we say...more eccentric folks in our fields, both student colleagues and faculty? Sure, we often have a freer hand to choose our path between the beginning of a project and the end, but the tasks are no less numerous or difficult.

Re: your last comment about following the "rules" to adulthood and still behaving immaturely - so glad to see someone else say this. I have several friends from high school - folks I care about dearly and miss greatly now that I've moved away - but still live the undergrad lifestyle of zero responsibility outside of work and wouldn't lift a finger to achieve something outside of the 40 hr/week job (not that 40 hours a week is a bad thing in itself - I'm jealous, of course). I think the giveaway for me was when one friend waited for their father to come pick their car up and take it to the dealership for a non-operating windshield fluid jet rather than do it themselves - couldn't be bothered to sit in a waiting room and talk to a mechanic

[triplebogey]

it is simply an alternate route into that stage in life.

On another note, I sort of wish we (meaning the grad school / faculty / administrator folks) would quit using the words "alternate" or "alternative." I'd rather get away from any sort of norm, like you mentioned above. I don't like hearing about departments offering guidance for "alternative" careers for PhDs - makes it sound like folks who don't take the TT research job are somehow not quite up to par with the rest. Why can't we lump all career choices in together and view the PhD as a means to whatever end we choose, rather than a set stream that some people might choose to "deviate" from?

[Behavioral]

You're imbuing a negative connotation to the word when the word (alternate, alternative) is the best word to describe these other careers.

It's not that getting a TT job is supposed to be best, but it seems to be the most common route people expect to take when going into a PhD (cross-discipline differences aside with just looking at the academe as a whole).

[triplebogey]

You're imbuing a negative connotation to the word when the word (alternate, alternative) is the best word to describe these other careers.

It's not that getting a TT job is supposed to be best, but it seems to be the most common route people expect to take when going into a PhD (cross-discipline differences aside with just looking at the academe as a whole).

Tone is hard to convey on the Internet and I certainly don't want to be part of a nasty argument like I've seen on here before, so I'll say outright I'm not trying to be snarky or a smartass - I intend no offense.

But yes, I do attach a negative meaning to those words because in my experience (personal, limited, my own) they're treated as such. What little career guidance I've been given thus far has entirely assumed a TT career; I've never been asked what I intend to do with my PhD after graduation. I suppose what I'm getting it is that I'd like to see the PhD experience treated as just what it is - an educational stepping stone to something else, whatever that may be. Perhaps instead of conversations that go "where would you like to teach after you're done here?", we could start having discussions like "what do you want to do with your training?" I entirely concede your point that a TT job is where the vast majority of folks head after getting this degree, and I'm speaking from my own experience, but I know if I were to openly say I had no intention of applying for TT positions after graduation my relationship with faculty would change substantially. Not that I have that sort of set plan at this point,but I at least want to have options for myself when the time comes.

Edited April 25, 2012 by triplebogey