Advice on Finding a Girlfriend in Graduate School

[Cookie Monster]

First of all, I apologize if my post is out of place. I suppose that this is not meant as a relationships forum, but I wanted to receive advice from my fellow graduate students. To introduce myself, I am a 22-year old engineering master's student, graduating this summer. Sad to relate, I have never kissed a girl, and have never been on a date, let alone have a girlfriend. Part of it is bad timing (somehow I manage to ask girls out who already have boyfriends), but really the biggest obstacle is myself. I am introverted, and have never been great at talking with people I just met; thus I don't often meet girls, and when I do, I never really capture their interest. I'm not the best-looking guy (I'd say I'm of average appearance), but I'd like to think that I'm a nice person and an interesting guy once you get to know me. The problem is, with girls, I never really get past that initial step of breaking the ice.

I will be entering a Ph.D. program in the fall, so I was wondering, what would be good places to meet girls? (Bear in mind that I don't drink, so bars are not ideal.) I'm not interested in hooking up or anything like that. I'd like to find a girl whom I can be in a serious relationship with. Also, if I meet a girl whom I think is nice, is it alright to ask her out soon (especially if I don't think I'll see her again otherwise), or should I only ask a girl out after I've known her for a while? I've only ever asked girls out many weeks after I've met them, even though I had wanted to do so much sooner. I guess I've always been unsure of myself when asking a girl out. I would appreciate advice from anyone on how to find a girlfriend as a graduate student, but advice from girls would be especially welcome. Sorry for the long post, and many thanks for all your suggestions.

[go3187]

I'd find it a little creepy if a guy I just met asked me out. I'd think he either asked me out mostly based on my looks, or he's quite desperate to date; none of which I'd like in a partner. Before going out with someone, I'd want to know that person a bit, and to know that we're potentially compatible. So, for me, it takes a few weeks of talking to someone before I even consider going out with him.

To meet more new people, I would suggest online dating. Sites like Craiglist are full of creeps, imo, but OkCupid is one I've seen mentioned here several times.

[Ennue]

Maybe this advice doesn't appeal to you, but I'd say: for now, don't focus on finding someone to spend the rest of your life with. Just look for a fun night. Get drunk and kiss someone at a party. Once you get that initial 'Oh my god I have no experience at all' out of the way other things (like asking someone you genuinely like out) may get easier!

[Grind12]

Get some SWAG! First of all be confident, even if you're not, fake it (btw confident but not arrogant or a jack***). Second, maybe forget about finding a serious relationship right now, you should try to focus on finding female friends so you know how to act around women. Once you've found some female friends, actually pay attention to them and what they tell you about their relationships. After you're comfortable being around women, then try to talk to some. Now you say your not the best looking guy but EVERYONE has something about them that attracts the opposite sex, find what your something is. If that doesn't do the trick, how about a new haircut? Finally, if you want to meet new people, you have to go to new places, you can't do the same exact thing and go the exact same places everyday and expect to see different people. You will have to venture out. Who knows maybe one of your female friends could end up being your next gf, or one of the women you happen to meet. But remember think about the type of woman you want be with, where would she be? In a coffee shop? The Library? At a bar? And that's how you'll know where to go.

As far as asking a girl out, you should first take the time to get to know, but you don't have to take month before asking she'll probably think you're not into her. When you ask her out for the first time, ask her to a place that is very public, maybe a lunch date on a Saturday or something? This way it's in the middle of the day and you can actually talk to each other (just think about ppl on a first date who go to the movies, you cant really talk and it's too dark to be with someone you just met). Hope this helps some, good luck!

[imisscoffee]

Hi. I want to say that for me, physical body type/face/weight has NOTHING to do with anything. It's about confidence, but even if you are low on that, there is an easy way to fake it: style. In all honesty, fashion IS important. It's part of your first impression. I am aware that it can seem insincere to dress a certain way that doesn't come naturally to you. But people do it all the time, and for the purpose of attracting certain others (namely, the people who would also dress in that style). I have guy friends who I am just not attracted to when they are wearing '90s pants and an old sweater. But put them in their one pair of skinny jeans and ruffle their hair, and DAMN! It's sad but true. I want to be friends with those I find mentally attractive, and lovers/partners ONLY with those I find mentally AND visually attractive. Give yourself that edge. You won't drive anyone away by trying, I'm sure.

And as for fashion advice: I'm horrible with fashion but try really hard to dress in the style of the type of people I want to attract. Do some internet research and imitate, imitate, imitate.

Get in there, mysterious quiet guy in the cool sunglasses reading about engineering in the cafe. Find a sweet non-drinking girl from the biology department to have long conversations with over ginger ale and cherries, and to court over a period of months! But give her that spark on first sight. First impressions are important.

One more thing, and they say this in creative writing classes: show, don't tell. Show that you are an interesting guy by taking up a hobby/joining a club/becoming an expert in something. Don't just try to chat someone up, let her run into you while you are deeply involved in that chess game, and kicking your opponent's ass.

Good luck.

[imisscoffee]

PS - I also agree with Grind above.

PPS - There IS someone for everyone. Just because you are a late bloomer (I am too) doesn't mean that you're not going to find someone to walk that life path with. And grad school is a great place to find intelligent, like-minded individuals.

PPPS - I vote for asking the person out sooner rather than later, or "just friends" status will already be established. Also, OkCupid has a wide range of folks - go for it!

[Dal PhDer]

Hi there,

I have several suggestions to build on from others' post.

First, try not to get into any situation with the idea that this might be the one. When you meet a girl, if you click or are interested, just say "hey, would you like to grab a coffee sometime?". You don't want to appear overly aggressive, but girls like to see a guy that takes charge and makes the first move.

Second, your first year of your PhD will be a busy one- so while being with someone and having a partner might be essential to you, do realize that your degree is like your new girlfriend!

Third, join...join join join join! Meet new people through social events! Put yourself out there! You can't expect to meet people if you don't take changes to be involved in situations with strangers (that sounded creepy and totally against everything my mother taught me!)....I would suggest being involve in departmental outings, building relationships with your lab mates, and joining clubs! I can't stress to you how important it is...if you meet a new friend, you will then meet more people through them! The best way to meet a new person to date is through friends of friends! Try joining a co-ed recreational sports league! Or joining a group of something that interests you...but you have to put yourself out there and meet new people. And approach it in a way that your not out there to meet a new love interest, your just out there to meet new people and new friends...once you get to know them, maybe there's something more! But honestly, the best relationships start as friendships!

Lastly, to get over the hump and to just 'practice' dating and meeting girls in a romantic way, go to an online dating site like eharmony! Lots of people have success with this, and it's a great way to put yourself out there without having to risk a whole lot! You can start getting comfortable with meeting girls, talking to them, and get a handle of dating! --- Honestly, this doesn't just go for you! I was out of the dating scene for 5 years, and that's how I tried to make myself more comfortable with meeting people...if you do it a few times, it isn't as intimidating!

Good luck! Have confidence in yourself, and know that when the time is right, the right person will find you!

[imisscoffee]

I also agree with the JOINING!

[Loc Nguyen]

Be confident = That's all you need.

[Gneiss1]

I say ask a person sooner than later, otherwise how are you going to get to know them? Perhaps I should elaborate on this...I mean asking them to hang out sooner than later not meeting a chick and asking her to be your girlfriend even though you barely know her. To meet people you would be interested in, go places that interest you or join groups of things that interest you. For example, I love hiking and I tend to enjoy it even moreso with other people. So I met other local hikers online and arranged meet ups for hikes and got to meet a lot of people that way. Quite a few of the people within our group ended up dating beyond that and I probably would have done the same had I not already been in a relationship.

I second the online dating thing. As someone who has very little time and tends to also be a bit more introverted online dating really appealed to me. It has its pros and cons though, the pros you can evaluate a broad range of people to (hopefully) weed to all the jerks and people of no interest. It also is conversation based and takes the pressure off comunication so if you are a pretty cool person with decent interests and goals you can communicate those without the awkwardness of starting a conversation face to face with someone. The cons are that there will inevitably be a lot of duds on there and the first meeting is always awkward (though it would likely be that way in real life as well). I tended to play the friend card first to establish a friendship with the other person to eliminate some awkwardness and then take it from there. It worked well I suppose because I am still with the person I ended up with over a year later:) There are the pay sites like match.com and eharmony.com which I suppose offer more serious prospects but if you don't want to pay okcupid.com and plentyoffish.com should work just fine.

Be confident. Fake it till you make it. Seriously. You don't have to be confident to appear confident and nobody likes to be around someone who dwells on their insecurities. After all, if you can't like you why should they like you? Everyone is insecure, but don't play the weak hand when dating.

Also being a late bloomer is not a bad thing. For me personally that is much more of a pro than a con. Someone who is "inexperienced" is also someone with a certain sense of innocence to them that hasn't been corrupted by a bunch of failed relationships. Every serious relationship that one goes through that fails inevitably changes a person a little bit, usually for the worse. Experience may be a good thing in the job world, but it tends to be the opposite in the relationship world (at least imo).

Finally here is some advice from my personal perspective on things that definitely boost the attractiveness of a guy to me as a potential date:

- Goals: clearly you have some since you are going to grad school. Women like to know the guys they are dating has a promising future.

- Hygiene and appearance: A guy that takes good care of himself says he can take good care of other things (i.e. me). Keep up on your haircuts, shaving, wrinkle-free clothes, etc. If I am on a date with a guy that can't take the time to shave his face and put on some clothes without wrinkles or holes in them then it tells me he doesn't care that much about the date.

- Buy cologne (and wear it) : It's worth the investment. A guy that smells nice is instantly more attractive to me. Plus it signals a bit more that you are on the market in some cases. I would recommend Giorgio Armani's Acqua di Gio. It's expensive but smells amazing.

- Pick someone with shared interests: If you have nothing in common with the other person, it's going to be really hard to make a connection and you will have very little to talk about.

- On the date, be a gentleman and be fun: I don't care what anyone says, chivalry is not dead. If you are taking a girl out on a date, make it memorable. Take her out to dinner at some mutually agreeable place, preferably somewhere nice but not the most expensive place in town. If you are meeting online it may be more comfortable for her to drive herself so ask what she prefers, if she does want to be picked up make sure your car is clean. This will give you a chance to talk and get to know eachother. Hold the door and pick up the check. For the second half of the date, do something fun maybe something that appeals to a mutual interest. Some ideas would be maybe go karts, rock climbing, hiking, comedy club, local concert, salsa dancing, get creative. If you have her laughing then that is a good sign. Just make sure she knows ahead of time so she wears the appropriate clothing (i.e. rock climbing in heels just doesn't work, trust me I've tried;) ) End the night on a good note, she will let you know where she is standing with things. Some girls like to kiss on the first date and some don't. If you get in that awkward spot where you don't know if you should or not, but you felt the date went really well and you want to, then ask her. Seriously. It will be much more respectable if you ask "is it alright if I kiss you goodnight?" as opposed to just going for it if isn't obvious that is what she wants. Finally, if all went well call or text her in the next day or two and set up the next get together. This will be more relaxed now that you have broken the ice and you can let things progress from there.

Good luck!

[ktel]

I would disagree with the above poster that experience negatively taints another person. It took me a while of trying out different types of people to find out what I really wanted in a partner. Some relationships didn't end well, but any bitterness tends to quickly subside.

To be perfectly honest, and sorry to the OP, but yes I would be concerned to know that someone was in their 20s and had never kissed anyone or been on a date. But, if I had already developed a friendship with that person I think I would be less concerned because I would know their personality. So my suggestion to the OP is to not divulge this information until you have a friendship or more serious relationship with the girl that you would like to date.

I have never tried online dating, but I have always been very active in online communities (such as this one) and found it a great way to communicate with people, particularly when I was younger and more introverted. Perhaps this would be an excellent way for the OP to gain the experience that could help him foray into the offline dating world.

[Dal PhDer]

I have to disagree with Gneiss about experience being a bad thing.

I think there are various kinds of 'experience' in the relationship area...we could be talking about relationship experience, dating experience, sexual experience...regardless, experience allows an individual to grow and further develop an understanding of what they are looking for in a partner. Yes, some people carry baggage from these experiences, but a lot of people look at them as good points in their lives that taught them a lot.

For the OP, I am under the philosophy not to hide who I am, where I've been, and what I've done- for me, I am at a point in my life where I want a partner to take me for who I am...I am willing to wait until I find someone who accepts me, rather than compromise some things- neither is right or wrong, just personal preference.

My biggest piece of advice is to take it slow and don't rush it. It can take people awhile to develop feelings or see someone as datable. You may want to rush in, jump feet first, and confess everything to someone so they can instantly connect with you...but it's not always the right situation. Seek out friends, and if you connect and have interests on a friend level, then you at least know you're probably compatible for more!

Also, dating is like fishing..it really is...you are going to have to cast your line out a few times before you get a nibble, and you might have to get a few nibbles before you get a catch! Be open to new people, new experiences, and new situations- be yourself, love yourself, and you'll find yourself meeting someone who is right for you!

[Cookie Monster]

Wow, great advice and encouragement from all of you! I had never really considered online dating sites before, simply because I wasn't sure how reliable or informative an online profile could be. However, most of you have suggested it as a possible route for me, and based on some of the positive experiences reported by people like Dal PhDer, it sounds like it's worth a try for me. At worst, I won't meet anyone I'm really into, but I will at least get a bit more comfortable with socializing and perhaps entering the dating world.

I'm glad to hear that looks are not the be-all and end-all. I definitely need to appear more confident though; the line by Gneiss1, "if you can't like you why should they like you?" sounds so true. And imisscoffee, I guess it's true what they say then, that clothes make the man. I have zero fashion sense; a T-shirt and track pants are my usual attire. However, if I meet someone I'm interested in, I'll certainly try to take your advice of expanding my wardrobe to make a better impression. It's something I've never done before, but it surely cannot hurt. Grind12, I particularly like your suggestions about how to meet girls, and how to ask someone out if I'm interested in her. I guess it's a question of going out and doing it. Can't sit in my apartment or lab all day and expect to meet people.

I'll try to follow the advice you've all given, and hopefully I can meet someone special someday. Thanks guys!

[mandarin.orange]

I had a sense of deja vu reading the OP of this thread...some digging with the "search" function revealed why, with

Not only are there 5 more pages of advice on exactly this topic, but there must be some consolation in the fact that you're not alone, right?

[Cookie Monster]

@mandarin.orange: Haha, yeah, misery does love company! Thanks for digging up that thread, I'm sure I could use the advice.

[CageFree]

You sound a lot like my "soon to be" hubby (3 more weeks!)...he was a late bloomer too. When I met him he'd definitely gone out on dates and what not, but I was his second girlfriend EVER and we're well into our 30's. Meanwhile, when I met him, I was finalizing a divorce after years of marriage, had been engaged once before that, and was essentially a serial monogamist with serious baggage (and the accompanying heartbreak). We couldn't be more opposite in terms of experience.

He says that the reason he didn't do any of that earlier was that he had no game. He was the stereotypical "nice guy," and girls would put him on the friend zone. He had to learn to channel his "inner a-hole," which doesn't mean he really is one... but that he doesn't allow people to walk all over him anymore.

What he did was: get counseling in order to develop more self-confidence, surround himself with guys who had more game than him and go out to clubs and what not, join social groups, and grow a backbone.

Re: experience, I found his lack of relationship experience to be a huge plus. First off, no experience = no relationship baggage. He doesn't have stuff to throw at me, he doesn't talk about what he did with previous gf's, has no kids or ex-wife (and in our 30's that's huge). Second, it made it easier to establish trust... he didn't get to pick up certain bad habits (like my ex-H's habit of hiding all kinds of stuff from me, and cheating)... I felt like he had no agenda and wasn't in it to play games.

We've been together for over two years, engaged for about 10 months, and frankly, he caught up pretty quickly. He had to learn some things (and still is learning), but he is a wonderful partner to me and I don't think I would be able to go to grad school without his support.

[ghanada]

ok let me preface my post by the fact that I am similar to the OP. I am a short, nerdy asian engineer and didn't start dating until college. However, I have had some great relationships since then, all at least 1.5-2 years long and no one night stands or anything.

Some people might think this is terrible advice but I think it is worth reading the book "The Game". Now don't read that book as a manual or "how to" guide. Read it as an interesting and entertaining story, but pick up on the social constructs that are described. There is some good advice about self-confidence and alpha male mentality that a lot of guys never take the time to think about. There are definitely some ridiculous tactics and stories in there, but underneath it all the sociology of it makes sense. It has really helped me and the way I go into new environments and meet new people. I was always the typical "nice guy" and didn't get why nice guys finish last. But after reading the book I understand it and have a better idea of what women are attracted to. Just don't be a creeper. And don't let creepy guys read it, they will become even more creepy.

[cunninlynguist]

Do you. Be yourself.

That's it. I could've done without reading some of the more judgmental replies in this thread. You're clearly a motivated, educated, good citizen. You don't need to force yourself to do things or attend social events that you normally wouldn't -- that's a quick path to find someone incompatible or to eliminate your sense of individualism.

Ideally, your PhD program will foster a healthy social environment where you meet similar people. That should branch out into a larger community (of the university, the surrounding town, etc.). Through that, you may come across a girl who strikes your interest and it'll be a natural connection. Although this is where I'll dispense some quick advice: manners, maturity, and cleanliness. Every man should strive to convey those qualities; they're implicit ways to show confidence without magically becoming an extrovert.

BTW, it seems there are studies popping up everywhere stating that people are focusing more on education and careers, and as a result, are getting married and having children later in life.

Edited June 6, 2012 by cunninlynguist

[Dal PhDer]

Do you. Be yourself.

That's it. I could've done without reading some of the more judgmental replies in this thread. You're clearly a motivated, educated, good citizen. You don't need to force yourself to do things or attend social events that you normally wouldn't -- that's a quick path to find someone incompatible or to eliminate your sense of individualism.

Ideally, your PhD program will foster a healthy social environment where you meet similar people. That should branch out into a larger community (of the university, the surrounding town, etc.). Through that, you may come across a girl who strikes your interest and it'll be a natural connection. Although this is where I'll dispense some quick advice: manners, maturity, and cleanliness. Every man should strive to convey those qualities; they're implicit ways to show confidence without magically becoming an extrovert.

BTW, it seems there are studies popping up everywhere stating that people are focusing more on education and careers, and as a result, are getting married and having children later in life.

Suggesting the OP engage in activities that he might not normally do is not judgemental, it's suggesting an opportunity for him to meet people he might not otherwise meet. And to suggest that your PhD program will likely introduce you to a like minded mate is suggesting taking a narrow path...Depending on your degree, you will be faced with labs of all the same gender, married lab mates...I would say that my experience, grad school would be the least likely place I would find a partner.

The OP wants advice on how to find a girlfriend, and has asked for good places to meet girls...broadening your circle of friends and experiencing a wide range of activities (outside of grad school) is great advice. If you only stick to grad school and your lab, your are limiting your chances of meeting someone who might be the perfect match for you.

Also, dating within your program is often frowned upon... [ check out advice in this thread ]

Clearly the OP wanted suggestions outside of what his typically does right now...suggesting him to broaden his social circles and experiences if good advice and not judgemental.

[jeffster]

...surround himself with guys who had more game than him and go out to clubs and what not, join social groups...

This can be great advice! I was never particularly shy nor extroverted; I never had problems meeting women nor did I go through women like crazy, the way some friends did. However, I had a good friend at university who was extremely introverted and had never had a girlfriend, or even anything close. He ended up with a random roommate who was a great guy, but really quite a playboy. Within one semester of hanging out with him, my nerdy friend was looking quite a bit more respectable, and by the time we all graduated he had had several good relationships. Obviously finding a friend who is more extroverted and has an easy time with the fairer sex is easier said than done, but it's something to keep in mind.

Also, you don't actually need to do special things to meet women - they make up more than half the population! Put the idea of "meeting a girlfriend" out of your mind and just think about meeting people. Even meeting other guys (as mentioned above) expands your social circles and leads to meeting more girls in the long run. Rather than forcing an opportunity to ask someone on a date, this way you'll find someone with whom chemistry makes it a natural progression.

And lastly, think about your appearance. If you pay no attention at all to your own looks and style, then that usually comes across to the people you meet. There are lots of easy ways to address this - ditch t-shirts for shirts with a collar, old jeans for new jeans, stop slouching, don't shuffle when you walk, etc. Whatever you wear doesn't have to be fancy or expensive, just make sure it's clean and wrinkle-free. Like it or not, our appearance is the first chance most of us have to make an impression, and it should at least not be off-putting.

[Dal PhDer]

To add onto jeffster's point about appearance...***what I am about to say is going to sound fluffy and horribly girlie***....putting in a bit of extra work on your appearance (e.g., looking clean cut, wearing a spiffy outfit that you like, smelling nice) will also make YOU feel different and results in you acting different and more confident. There is a reason why when girls are down in the dumps they go shopping for a nice outfit, go get their nails/hair done, or get dressed up- it makes you feel good to look in the mirror and say "daaaayum, I got it!!" [i know that statement is a generalization on all girls! apologies!]

If you spend an extra 20 minutes in the morning putting yourself together, you will feel more confident and your behaviours/attitude will change...and after about a week of putting 20minutes in, you'll find you'll only need 10 minutes, and soon it'll just be a part of your daily routine!

[jeffster]

To add onto jeffster's point about appearance...***what I am about to say is going to sound fluffy and horribly girlie***....putting in a bit of extra work on your appearance (e.g., looking clean cut, wearing a spiffy outfit that you like, smelling nice) will also make YOU feel different and results in you acting different and more confident. There is a reason why when girls are down in the dumps they go shopping for a nice outfit, go get their nails/hair done, or get dressed up- it makes you feel good to look in the mirror and say "daaaayum, I got it!!" [i know that statement is a generalization on all girls! apologies!]

If you spend an extra 20 minutes in the morning putting yourself together, you will feel more confident and your behaviours/attitude will change...and after about a week of putting 20minutes in, you'll find you'll only need 10 minutes, and soon it'll just be a part of your daily routine!

Yes, this! Actually I think it's MORE about the change in attitude that comes with dressing nice and cleaning up, than it is about the actual dressing up or cleaning up itself. To turn it around, if I see a woman in something very attractive, but she is clearly very uncomfortable in it (for example, constantly tugging at a skirt that is too short), then it ruins the whole effect. Whereas if the same woman had just scaled it back a bit and worn something she was comfortable in, then her attitude would more than make up the difference. It's not about the clothes - no one wants to date clothes. It's about the overall impression those clothes contribute to. This is why posture is so important as well.

[ktel]

I will second jeffster's point about just meeting people. I have never met someone I wanted to date when I was actively looking for someone to date. I think people can sense a bit of the desperation when you're that focused. Instead what I would try to focus on was just going out and having a good time and meeting people. Even though I'm in a committed relationship I still do the same thing when I go out.

And in addition to appearance, there are many other traits that are very attractive to the opposite sex. For example, my boyfriend is an awesome cook. The first time he cooked me dinner I was incredibly impressed. I know when I look for a mate I look for more than just appearance, things like having a good job (or being in school) and being generally responsible are also high on my wish list.

[psychgurl]

Wow, great advice and encouragement from all of you! I had never really considered online dating sites before, simply because I wasn't sure how reliable or informative an online profile could be. However, most of you have suggested it as a possible route for me, and based on some of the positive experiences reported by people like Dal PhDer, it sounds like it's worth a try for me. At worst, I won't meet anyone I'm really into, but I will at least get a bit more comfortable with socializing and perhaps entering the dating world.

I would consider myself pretty dating-savvy, but I visited an online dating site (OkCupid) after I felt like I was just in a dating rut. The nice thing about OkCupid is that you have to answer questions about yourself in order to see how other users answered those questions. Some of the questions are really personal, like religion, sexual preferences, drug use, etc. The wonderful thing is that those are exactly the questions that are usually deal-breakers, and OkCupid gets those out of the way immediately! You can also specify what's mandatory in a partner (e.g., I don't want to date a smoker, and that is mandatory), and then it will filter out all those people. There are literally hundreds of questions to answer. And it matches you on various dimensions, presented as "percentage match" I believe.

I ran into a couple creeps on the site, but I also met my current boyfriend of almost two years on there! I think if you go into it thinking it's just for fun (not for a serious relationship), you will have a great time. Also, doing the "date talk" online is good practice for you. Good luck!!

[CageFree]

I will second jeffster's point about just meeting people. I have never met someone I wanted to date when I was actively looking for someone to date. I think people can sense a bit of the desperation when you're that focused. Instead what I would try to focus on was just going out and having a good time and meeting people. Even though I'm in a committed relationship I still do the same thing when I go out.

That goes for girls and guys. I have friends in their late 20's who are starting to feel the "bio clock" and as a result are "over-eager" when it comes to dating. If they get a guy's interest say, on Match.com, they will call the guy a few times before their date, start making plans, etc.. and I can't think of anything more off-putting to a guy than a woman that's already planning baby names before you've gone on a second date.

BTW, if bars and clubs are not your thing, check out Meetup.com. It's not online dating or anything like that (not that there's anything wrong with that either)... you just find groups of people with similar interests and meet up to do stuff together. I met my guy at a board game night cause I'm a board game and pub quiz nut.