F***k this process

[RubyBright]

OP, is it usual in psychology to go directly from undergrad to a doctorate?  I was under the impression that in general, in most disciplines, people do a master's first.  So, is it possible that you tried to make a very rare, big jump, and that's why you were rejected?  If so, does that help to put it in perspective?

 

Yes, it is quite normal. There are still free-standing master's programs, but may of them are terminal. If you want to do research, you head for a PhD. It's becoming increasingly common for schools who are cutting budgets to phase out their master's program and only have a combined master's/PhD program where you are awarded your master's either en route to the PhD, or receive both together at the end.

[Lancelot_Yu]

So flipping right! See I am not alone! I am a little irritated that people say "Well at least you tried." Ummm that never helps. People have no understanding that this a grueling and painful experience. What's worse is that the grad students that I work with only applied to *ONE* program....me? 15. 

 

I think I have come to accept that I will not get in this season, nor will I try again next year. Either you get in or you don't. I honestly don't have the financial and emotional means to do it again. I have minimal support around me. Maybe from the grad students :pat on the back: "there's always next year" or from my mom "At least you tried, some people never try for a PhD"....sorry mother that does not help....sorry grad students I am not a whiz like you.

PS applicant here and I am totally agree with you guys....I just know someone with no publication, low GRE score (although mine is not competative either), fewer research experience and lower GPA, got the admission from my dream school, and I still hear nothing. Not to mention I have 3-year legal work experience in a specific field which perfectly meets the professor's interests that I am applying for.To be honest, I am totally mad.

[lifesgood]

Rejected from two PhD programs post interview.

You had two interviews.  That seems to indicate that you must have a strong application.  Perhaps it's just a question of finding the right programs that will value your strengths.   As dark as it appears and as bad as you feel right now, when you've calmed down a bit and can evaluate the situation more objectively, you may decide to look for other programs and try again next year.  For your own sake try not to compare yourself to others, within or outside of your family.   You matter and are important to people just the way you are!   Good luck with this insanity.

[GodelEscher]

At this point after two PhD interviews (rejected) and 5 Masters interviews (pending) I kind of feel I am playing the lottery...although I am frustrated with this process I have come to like the idea of attending a Masters program, doing a thesis and working. Maybe a PhD is not in my cards right now, not because I am not competitive (4 posters, 2 talks; international and local conferences, pending publication) rather maybe this is the world telling me I need to work a little, and research a lot. Maybe apply to more diverse programs like health/beha. med. or even MD/PHD programs. Maybe I applied to the wrong programs for me. I am confident I am a very strong candidate but maybe my nursing/surgical background will stand out in a more medical oriented field??? 

 

Maybe?
 

[DarlingNikki]

At this point after two PhD interviews (rejected) and 5 Masters interviews (pending) I kind of feel I am playing the lottery...although I am frustrated with this process I have come to like the idea of attending a Masters program, doing a thesis and working. Maybe a PhD is not in my cards right now, not because I am not competitive (4 posters, 2 talks; international and local conferences, pending publication) rather maybe this is the world telling me I need to work a little, and research a lot. Maybe apply to more diverse programs like health/beha. med. or even MD/PHD programs. Maybe I applied to the wrong programs for me. I am confident I am a very strong candidate but maybe my nursing/surgical background will stand out in a more medical oriented field???

Maybe?

Now you're thinking outside the box. This may very well be you slamming the door, rather than it being closed on you! I've been thinking about similar options. You must spin every situation, however humbling, into your favor.

[WhyPhD]

Don't mix your vodka, just take a double shot for each rejection you got. And don't read your dad's CV. 

 

You'll be good.

[rustledjimmies]

LOL so judgmental 

 

but funny at the same time. 

 

sir, I respect that you were angry but i would hope that you can at least understand where I was coming from. 

 

You blatantly disrespected other PhD programs which you felt were inferior, and you made it clear that you conisder a PhD worthwhile simply so that you can claim the title "doctor". Further, this is almost not worthwhile in your mind because you will be making ~60,000 annually, and what a joke that is. 

 

Frankly, I do not think you would say these things (even in a rant) if you did not feel this way deep down in your heart. 

 

I am being judgemental, but I think that you care too much about your father's career. Multiple times you mention your successful, fulfilling career before studying psychology and deciding to pursue a PhD (which you then bashed). Furthermore, you mention your father multiple times as being a reason why you "should have a PhD". These are the reasons I said I do not feel you have the conviction. I do not find it funny.

 

I feel that in times of anger, our true feelings can emerge.

perhaps I am incorrect in your case. I hope that you live a fulfilling life with whatever you choose. 

 

p.s. don't let your father define you!

[GodelEscher]

sir, I respect that you were angry but i would hope that you can at least understand where I was coming from. 

 

You blatantly disrespected other PhD programs which you felt were inferior, and you made it clear that you conisder a PhD worthwhile simply so that you can claim the title "doctor". Further, this is almost not worthwhile in your mind because you will be making ~60,000 annually, and what a joke that is. 

 

Frankly, I do not think you would say these things (even in a rant) if you did not feel this way deep down in your heart. 

 

I am being judgemental, but I think that you care too much about your father's career. Multiple times you mention your successful, fulfilling career before studying psychology and deciding to pursue a PhD (which you then bashed). Furthermore, you mention your father multiple times as being a reason why you "should have a PhD". These are the reasons I said I do not feel you have the conviction. I do not find it funny.

 

I feel that in times of anger, our true feelings can emerge.

perhaps I am incorrect in your case. I hope that you live a fulfilling life with whatever you choose. 

 

p.s. don't let your father define you!

Valid points taken. You're family should never define...At a moment of weakness it is always easier to point fingers even though all the responsibility is mine. Obviously I went there. Trust me I can not rely on other people's successes or failures, nor can I expect that to make me life easier. It never will, nor will it "pave" a destiny for me. Although my perspective is bleak, at least I am realistic about my failures.

 

I did not make it to the cut and I vented. There is no excuse for what I said or who I am. Does it matter that I will be disappointing? Did I get that call that said, "I don't see why you did not get accepted there- I think you should have never applied. I got in to Stanford and you can't get into that school?"

 

With a combination of frustration, forward and cold comments in my life, it's hard to take 4 rejections (plus nasty comments) and still be "perky." About this process. If people lack empathy in this regard. So be it. 

 

Either way I don't care for his career - but he does a great job of tearing down my chosen careers. That's life. And that's the truth of it all. You can't focus on other people being happy, I have to focus on making my life content.

 

And I am happy with how I have accepted this, I am fine with getting a job and going into a masters program. 

[GodelEscher]

Don't mix your vodka, just take a double shot for each rejection you got. And don't read your dad's CV. 

 

You'll be good.

Ya that would have been easier....

[margarets]

At this point after two PhD interviews (rejected) and 5 Masters interviews (pending) I kind of feel I am playing the lottery...although I am frustrated with this process I have come to like the idea of attending a Masters program, doing a thesis and working. Maybe a PhD is not in my cards right now, not because I am not competitive (4 posters, 2 talks; international and local conferences, pending publication) rather maybe this is the world telling me I need to work a little, and research a lot. Maybe apply to more diverse programs like health/beha. med. or even MD/PHD programs. Maybe I applied to the wrong programs for me. I am confident I am a very strong candidate but maybe my nursing/surgical background will stand out in a more medical oriented field??? 

 

Maybe?

 

Hang on, you have all this psychology background, plus a nursing/surgical background, plus a dancer/choreographer background...huh?

 

How old are you?  How have you had time to fit in the education for all these careers plus, presumably, doing the careers for a while?  Even if you were 50, that is a lot to squeeze in.

 

And maybe that is part of the issue - all the chopping and changing.  An adcomm might not think you were committed to pursuing psychology as a career.  It's my understanding that adcomms want candidates who will stick it out and finish. 

Edited February 21, 2013 by margarets

[GodelEscher]

Hang on, you have all this psychology background, plus a nursing/surgical background, plus a dancer/choreographer background...huh?

 

How old are you?  How have you had time to fit in the education for all these careers plus, presumably, doing the careers for a while?  Even if you were 50, that is a lot to squeeze in.

 

And maybe that is part of the issue - all the chopping and changing.  An adcomm might not think you were committed to pursuing psychology as a career.  It's my understanding that adcomms want candidates who will stick it out and finish. 

 

I am a non-traditional student. Professional choreographer retired d/t injury. Then went into healthcare - now expanding in academia. Some people go to school while they finish college, I had careers while I finished. I was working in anesthesia while I finished my undergrad...first psychiatric nursing was an option then I wanted to do more research. 

 

Prof. dancer/choreographers are in a competitive world so it is not surprising that I could not rely on it after a back injury on stage. While trying to rehab for back injury I went into nursing school. It does not seem too unusual to me considering I was seriously injured and it ended my career at 19.

 

Mind you I got early start (grad HS when I was 16 & grad. assoc. at 18 or so). If that is something that looks "choppy" then I am limited to what I can change (in the past). But I do have to take into consideration of what it appears on paper....I am kinda in my 30's now and have always had 2-3 jobs at one time all my life. Maybe being a workaholic looks unfocused? I guess I could see that. Working 40 hrs in surgery plus 15 hrs a week in research does seem a little much...or maybe I chose the wrong programs and need to use my healthcare background to an advantage.

Edited February 21, 2013 by ApexKnowledge

[tiarabun]

I think you are entitled to feeling angry for a while. I felt "betrayed" by the system after receiving my first rejection last week. It's perfectly understandable.

If you are as good as you've described, man, you are freaking awesome already, PhD or not! People who score a 4.0 GPA with extensive research exp can't be that incompetent!

Throw yourself a pity party for a day or two. Cry yourself out if you have to, then do what you have to do next. You are still awesome!

[nibblingsushi]

or maybe I should go to medical school...

 

I hope you don't think medical school has an easier application process than PhD programs. It is, if anything, significantly harder. 

 

Maybe you were just a bad "fit" for the programs that you applied to and interviewed at. However, feeling "betrayed" by the system is just childish. Everyone has to play the same game. 

Edited February 22, 2013 by nibblingsushi

[zabius]

I understand that this process can be really frustrating at times! I was rejected from a program last year that I felt was the absolute perfect fit for me. I had a great GPA, loads of relevant research experience, and two strong recommendations. It turned out that the third recommendation was weak, and that's what killed my chances. There are just far too many qualified applicants out there, and one tiny imperfection in your own application can spell doom just because there are so many other brilliant people to choose from. It sucks, I know.

 

That said, in your original post, you came off as sounding a little bit too entitled (basically, "I know I'm smart and my dad is a well-known scholar, so obviously the school should want me… why do I even need to bother with this process?"). I don't mean this to be negative or critical… it's just the first impression that I got when I read your post (and the other one in a different sub forum). You probably didn't intend for that to happen, and maybe you don't even consciously feel that way. But if this attitude does come across in interviews, it could really work against you. I know from my experience in dealing with visiting students at my previous schools that the biggest complaint about interviewees that faculty/current students have is "this applicant was too full of himself"/"this applicant assumed he was already in and was acting cocky." In many cases, those interviewees are not accepted into the program, as that's a personality trait that most people don't like.

 

I'm not saying that this is what you did at your interviews. I understand that this process can be really frustrating and that you were probably just letting off some steam (which, let's face it, we all want to do and should do from time to time). You were likely much more courteous and composed at the interviews. But, just in case, it's something to be mindful of. You sound like you're a very qualified applicant who is definitely smart enough for a PhD program! But if the person interviewing you senses that you feel entitled to the admissions slot before you are formally admitted, then that alone can slash your chances… especially since there are probably many other people who have applied that have similar qualifications but who may be more modest.

Edited February 22, 2013 by zabius

[MSW13]

Interesting.  When I read a few of ApexKnowledge's posts I got the feeling that he(I'm assuming 'he', please correct me if I'm wrong) is experiencing intense pressure to live up to the unspoken expectations placed upon him (by himself or others) simply because his father is so accomplished. Gaining admission isn't just about being rewarded for your hard effort, it is also about maintaining a certain image.  If you get in, you wouldn't think twice about it.  However, if you get rejected, you can have strong feelings of shame, embarrassment, and an overwhelming feeling of disappointment--both for yourself and for those around you. For instance, he might feel like he has embarrassed not only himself but also his dad with the rejections.  How can you show your face amongst those who got in when everyone in the room knows that you are way more qualified (at least on paper)?

You can say that it shouldn't matter what daddy has accomplished academically or what your references think about your rejection but the truth is, we all have people in our lives that we dont want to disappoint or people who we are trying to 'prove' something to.  If you dont have the faintest clue as to why you would be rejected while others with significantly less accomplishment are admitted, it is easy to get bitter. Somewhat irrational questions like 'is it my age? my academic history? do you just not like me? start to surface.   Add a bottle of vodka and the irrational thoughts just flow and flow.

No matter who you are, it will take time to clear your head, shake off the hurt, and find a way to make your dreams happen regardless.

 

 

  

 

That said, in your original post, you came off as sounding a little bit too entitled (basically, "I know I'm smart and my dad is a well-known scholar, so obviously the school should want me… why do I even need to bother with this process?").

[callista]

Actually, she mentions being a "single mom with no support"...

[MSW13]

Thank you, I missed that!

Actually, she mentions being a "single mom with no support"...

[GodelEscher]

I hope you don't think medical school has an easier application process than PhD programs. It is, if anything, significantly harder. 

 

Maybe you were just a bad "fit" for the programs that you applied to and interviewed at. However, feeling "betrayed" by the system is just childish. Everyone has to play the same game. 

So right, I admit to the childishness. But I am over it. I do believe I may have chosen programs where I did not fit. Criticism to take into account

[GodelEscher]

I understand that this process can be really frustrating at times! I was rejected from a program last year that I felt was the absolute perfect fit for me. I had a great GPA, loads of relevant research experience, and two strong recommendations. It turned out that the third recommendation was weak, and that's what killed my chances. There are just far too many qualified applicants out there, and one tiny imperfection in your own application can spell doom just because there are so many other brilliant people to choose from. It sucks, I know.

 

That said, in your original post, you came off as sounding a little bit too entitled (basically, "I know I'm smart and my dad is a well-known scholar, so obviously the school should want me… why do I even need to bother with this process?"). I don't mean this to be negative or critical… it's just the first impression that I got when I read your post (and the other one in a different sub forum). You probably didn't intend for that to happen, and maybe you don't even consciously feel that way. But if this attitude does come across in interviews, it could really work against you. I know from my experience in dealing with visiting students at my previous schools that the biggest complaint about interviewees that faculty/current students have is "this applicant was too full of himself"/"this applicant assumed he was already in and was acting cocky." In many cases, those interviewees are not accepted into the program, as that's a personality trait that most people don't like.

 

I'm not saying that this is what you did at your interviews. I understand that this process can be really frustrating and that you were probably just letting off some steam (which, let's face it, we all want to do and should do from time to time). You were likely much more courteous and composed at the interviews. But, just in case, it's something to be mindful of. You sound like you're a very qualified applicant who is definitely smart enough for a PhD program! But if the person interviewing you senses that you feel entitled to the admissions slot before you are formally admitted, then that alone can slash your chances… especially since there are probably many other people who have applied that have similar qualifications but who may be more modest.

No I totally agree. My initial post seemed a little arrogant and angry. But I believe it came across worse than anticipated. Trust me I am not as crude- I would have not made it this far. I do not think I came across this way in interviews since I got feedback that my research background was too dominant for a practice oriented program. We all have our weak moments, mine apparently is a little silly. I am obviously not entitled, since I have had no contact with my "prestigious" father in over 15 yrs. So I have no received any benefit from his successes nor will I ever. Either way this place is not the place to let off steam ( how many times do I have to agree with everyone?)....

 

We live, we struggle and fall down...but we must get up and live another day. Thanx for the feedback either way. Even though people have replied very harshly, I can understand. their judgement. Either way life goes on.   

[GodelEscher]

Interesting.  When I read a few of ApexKnowledge's posts I got the feeling that he(I'm assuming 'he', please correct me if I'm wrong) is experiencing intense pressure to live up to the unspoken expectations placed upon him (by himself or others) simply because his father is so accomplished. Gaining admission isn't just about being rewarded for your hard effort, it is also about maintaining a certain image.  If you get in, you wouldn't think twice about it.  However, if you get rejected, you can have strong feelings of shame, embarrassment, and an overwhelming feeling of disappointment--both for yourself and for those around you. For instance, he might feel like he has embarrassed not only himself but also his dad with the rejections.  How can you show your face amongst those who got in when everyone in the room knows that you are way more qualified (at least on paper)?

You can say that it shouldn't matter what daddy has accomplished academically or what your references think about your rejection but the truth is, we all have people in our lives that we dont want to disappoint or people who we are trying to 'prove' something to.  If you dont have the faintest clue as to why you would be rejected while others with significantly less accomplishment are admitted, it is easy to get bitter. Somewhat irrational questions like 'is it my age? my academic history? do you just not like me? start to surface.   Add a bottle of vodka and the irrational thoughts just flow and flow.

No matter who you are, it will take time to clear your head, shake off the hurt, and find a way to make your dreams happen regardless.

Ah, a very composed reply. Many people are unaware of unseen forces that persuade children of successful parents to gravitate towards a certain route. Regardless of his successes I will never be as established, published, well regarded,or  "famous" but I have dealt with that and in times of weakness it re-surfaces. Granted I feel I have succeeded in my own life and I do think that this frustration of not "getting in"  is very common. Unfortunately because my family looks at this process as necessary to becoming "significant" in the academic world, the stressors are different for me to be accepted (different, not worse) than others- so I can admit to being rather "bratty" in my original post. My life is continuously compared to my father, so I believe it is rather humbling than I can be angry, be spiteful in one moment and literally let it go...  so I let go. life is too short to dwell, too bad I can't erase this post because it obviously is irritating people who are not compassionate of the stress of failure in a highly prestigious family. Let's all have some dignity and let it go....  

[GodelEscher]

Thank you, I missed that!

 

How does being single and a parent come into play? Thoughts ?

[MSW13]

Obviously I dont know you so everything I'm writing is just based on my impressions of some of your posts.  I may be way off base on a lot of stuff but again, it is just my impressions...

Being a single parent plays a huge role, especially on an emotional level.  Obviously, doing well (whatever your definition is of doing 'well') would show your kid(s) just what you are made of.  That is, you want to be a good role model just as your father has been for you....and you set your standards high. 

Also, assuming that you did not part with your ex on the best of terms (and probably when you could have used his support the most), getting in would have been a great way to vent some of that anger and say to him, "See, I did it without you, so f*ck you".  Being a single mother there is so much more you have to 'prove'.  You have to prove that you are better off without your ex. You have to prove that you can excel without a partner to cheer you on. You basically have to demonstrate how strong you are.  When you didn't get in to what should have been a no-brainer, it shattered all of this.

I am guessing that you had a lot of pride riding on getting in.  Not being able to 'stick it' to your ex coupled with the fact that your family only considers a certain level of academic acheivement to actually signal success, not getting in was demoralizing and humiliating.     

 

The bottomline is that single mothers (regardless of socio-economic status) have a lot to prove. They have to show 'the world' through their successes that they are not failures or 'defective' for not being in a relationship.  There is a lot of stigma attached to the 'single mother' status. I can totally see why you were so very upset at getting those rejections. 

 

Also, although you may have some regrets, it is great that you actually wrote that post.  Sure, it rubbed a lot of people the wrong way but really, it was raw honest emotion. Perhaps you projected some of the feelings that others have but just aren't comfortable to admit it on such a public platform.  Anyone who says that they dont create a hierarchy of applicants in their head and place themselves at or near the top is just not being truthful. I haven't met a single person who was rejected and didn't at some point say, "I cant believe so-and-so got in!"  In the moment of anger, we all are capable of belittling others to make ourselves feel better.  But, once the anger subsides, you put things back in perspective and hope people dont hold your angry rant against you later on

 

How does being single and a parent come into play? Thoughts ?

[Soleil ت]

As a graduate from NMSU, I take offense.

[GodelEscher]

As a graduate from NMSU, I take offense.

No intent on offending others. As a few posts have stated before- this was an unnecessary (or honest) rant. Some can can be understand of struggles, some can not. Either way: it was one irrational rant that reveal personal feelings of inadequacy that are not linked to any other person....Hey, at least I am honest. 

[GodelEscher]

Obviously I dont know you so everything I'm writing is just based on my impressions of some of your posts.  I may be way off base on a lot of stuff but again, it is just my impressions...

Being a single parent plays a huge role, especially on an emotional level.  Obviously, doing well (whatever your definition is of doing 'well') would show your kid(s) just what you are made of.  That is, you want to be a good role model just as your father has been for you....and you set your standards high. 

Also, assuming that you did not part with your ex on the best of terms (and probably when you could have used his support the most), getting in would have been a great way to vent some of that anger and say to him, "See, I did it without you, so f*ck you".  Being a single mother there is so much more you have to 'prove'.  You have to prove that you are better off without your ex. You have to prove that you can excel without a partner to cheer you on. You basically have to demonstrate how strong you are.  When you didn't get in to what should have been a no-brainer, it shattered all of this.

I am guessing that you had a lot of pride riding on getting in.  Not being able to 'stick it' to your ex coupled with the fact that your family only considers a certain level of academic acheivement to actually signal success, not getting in was demoralizing and humiliating.     

 

The bottomline is that single mothers (regardless of socio-economic status) have a lot to prove. They have to show 'the world' through their successes that they are not failures or 'defective' for not being in a relationship.  There is a lot of stigma attached to the 'single mother' status. I can totally see why you were so very upset at getting those rejections. 

 

Also, although you may have some regrets, it is great that you actually wrote that post.  Sure, it rubbed a lot of people the wrong way but really, it was raw honest emotion. Perhaps you projected some of the feelings that others have but just aren't comfortable to admit it on such a public platform.  Anyone who says that they dont create a hierarchy of applicants in their head and place themselves at or near the top is just not being truthful. I haven't met a single person who was rejected and didn't at some point say, "I cant believe so-and-so got in!"  In the moment of anger, we all are capable of belittling others to make ourselves feel better.  But, once the anger subsides, you put things back in perspective and hope people dont hold your angry rant against you later on

I think you have an interesting perspective on what being a single mom "is." Although a portion is a little inadequate I think it is an interesting and valid point. I believe the idea of "single mother" is very different that how you state of "proving" it to others. I think that is very true however in my situation I left the x in a very positive way and have a nurturing relationship as friends. I do not believe I had to prove it to him or defeat the identity of single mom, rather prove it to myself. I think this is true for many people who are simply "hard on themselves." 

 

I do value your post and it does bring to mind some interesting interpersonal conflicts some single moms do face more than myself. I kind of believe that being a single mom is taking into consideration of the financial burden of applying again vs. proving myself. If I was childless I would most likely feel the exact same frustration.