Horb Posted February 6, 2014 Posted February 6, 2014 I'd actually be interested how this actually works in the US. We don't really use LOR here in Germany and when I asked professors for my study abroad in the US 3 years ago, some of them said, write it yourself and I'll sign it. Do professors also do that in the US? It might sound like that gives me an edge, but to be honest, I didn't know what to write in there. It just felt weird. NO! It is totally against the rules here. Professors write them and submit them without our reading them. We have to waive our right to view them or programs will generally view it negatively. It is probably because they think if we see them it will affect the honesty of the letter/recommender.
Megeen Posted February 6, 2014 Posted February 6, 2014 NO! It is totally against the rules here. Professors write them and submit them without our reading them. We have to waive our right to view them or programs will generally view it negatively. It is probably because they think if we see them it will affect the honesty of the letter/recommender. Wait a sec, it reflects negatively on you if you don't waive your right to see them?
Horb Posted February 6, 2014 Posted February 6, 2014 Wait a sec, it reflects negatively on you if you don't waive your right to see them? Generally. Not always. But generally. I've always been told that anyways. You usually send a rec request and the request will let the professor know if you waived it or not. I think it is an honesty thing. But I'm sure it is different for you, since as you said, that isn't normal in Germany.
Kamisha Posted February 6, 2014 Posted February 6, 2014 When people say "good LOR" on the form, what do they mean? I thought we weren't allowed to look at our LOR, unless they mean written by well-known faculty, but even then, how would they know? Or do they assume? Just curious. I've always wanted to know what my profs wrote about me but I'll never know. *frowns* I think all of the discussion of “Good LoR’s” comes from the increasingly ambiguity over the issue of whether or not students should look at their recommendations ahead of time. It used to be that you would never, ever, EVER look at a recommendation that a professor wrote for you. However, the expectation to wave your rights to a letter is almost purely a United States expectation and, even then, it’s changing. More and more universities want everything, including LoR’s, uploaded to your application. I waived all of my rights, but faculty members still sent me the letter to view after they’d submitted it to my applications. While the norm is changing, a think a “good LoR” is still waiving your rights to view your later. I think it also means that the recommendation is recent and representative.
Megeen Posted February 6, 2014 Posted February 6, 2014 Wait a sec, it reflects negatively on you if you don't waive your right to see them? That means I'm screwed! I thought if you don't waive your right you can take a look at them if you get accepted. That'd mean that the LOR was good anyway, right? What's the logic behind that?
Kamisha Posted February 6, 2014 Posted February 6, 2014 Wait a sec, it reflects negatively on you if you don't waive your right to see them? Yeah, I’ve been told that this is a big red flag here in the United States.
toasterazzi Posted February 6, 2014 Posted February 6, 2014 I'd actually be interested how this actually works in the US. We don't really use LOR here in Germany and when I asked professors for my study abroad in the US 3 years ago, some of them said, write it yourself and I'll sign it. Do professors also do that in the US? It might sound like that gives me an edge, but to be honest, I didn't know what to write in there. It just felt weird. Actually, I have heard of some profs doing in this here in the US, but I don't think it's the norm. Wait a sec, it reflects negatively on you if you don't waive your right to see them? Apparently. One of my letter writers told me early on in the application process to just waive the right if given the opportunity to do so. He didn't go into detail about why, and I didn't ask. He just said it was the better choice to make.
Kamisha Posted February 6, 2014 Posted February 6, 2014 (edited) That means I'm screwed! I thought if you don't waive your right you can take a look at them if you get accepted. That'd mean that the LOR was good anyway, right? What's the logic behind that? The logic has to do with ethics. Admissions committees assume your recommendation writers will be more “honest” in their evaluation of you if they know you aren’t going to see the letter. If you don’t waive your rights to view the letter, adcomms speculate that the recommender will be persuaded to “fluff up” their opinions of you, or that your concerned about the ability to get a good letter, which illustrates to them that you aren’t a strong candidate. Basically, if you don’t waive your rights, the recommendation is deemed less credible and you are deemed a weaker applicant. Again, though, this is changing. Also, this is the United States. Edited February 6, 2014 by Kamisha
iExcelAtMicrosoftPuns Posted February 6, 2014 Posted February 6, 2014 Actually, I have heard of some profs doing in this here in the US, but I don't think it's the norm. Apparently. One of my letter writers told me early on in the application process to just waive the right if given the opportunity to do so. He didn't go into detail about why, and I didn't ask. He just said it was the better choice to make. Waive the right - it allows the writer to be more honest and to speak openly without worrying about saying something that you may be offended by. Yes- I had Profs tell me, "write your own letter - I'll review it, jazz it up, and send it out." It was a terrible process.
Megeen Posted February 6, 2014 Posted February 6, 2014 Generally. Not always. But generally. I've always been told that anyways. You usually send a rec request and the request will let the professor know if you waived it or not. I think it is an honesty thing. But I'm sure it is different for you, since as you said, that isn't normal in Germany. Well, yeah, but the add comm is probably not gonna know that it's not common in Germany, so they'd consider it to be bad etiquette...
Horb Posted February 6, 2014 Posted February 6, 2014 Well, yeah, but the add comm is probably not gonna know that it's not common in Germany, so they'd consider it to be bad etiquette... Depends how familiar they are with international applicants. I'd hate to have to write my own letter. Trying to differentiate my writing style and trying to write different things per recommender would freak me out. I mean, what if they realize they all sound similar? Are they supposed to? I heard people had to do this for affiliation letters for fellowships and I was so happy I did not have to.
Megeen Posted February 6, 2014 Posted February 6, 2014 Depends how familiar they are with international applicants. I'd hate to have to write my own letter. Trying to differentiate my writing style and trying to write different things per recommender would freak me out. I mean, what if they realize they all sound similar? Are they supposed to? I heard people had to do this for affiliation letters for fellowships and I was so happy I did not have to. Well, I guess that's just one more thing to worry about now that I can't change a thing anymore anyway... I think they're not gonna care that it's different in Germany. Maybe they're not even familiar with the system here, especially considering the time I spent explaining my degree and course of studies to the grad coordinator at Penn State... I didn't write my own letter this time, but last time I really hated it. Didn't know what to write and so on, but it was better than the professors telling me they'd love to do it but don't have time.
CommPhD20 Posted February 6, 2014 Posted February 6, 2014 I think people are saying they have good LoR based on assumptions. My recommenders were in large part in dialogue with me about what insights they could share that would benefit me and things like that. One professor talked at length with me about the faculty at each school and how I felt like I fit with them so that she could talk about that in each letter. I feel safe that my LoR are good for this reason and would probably say that in the results. jazzyd 1
Horb Posted February 6, 2014 Posted February 6, 2014 (edited) What was difficult about your degree? I mean, I know German ones are a bit different, but it didn't seem to different to me when I was there. Edited February 6, 2014 by Horb
shortstack51 Posted February 6, 2014 Posted February 6, 2014 Not to change topic, but slow day on the results board... I have to deliver something into Manhattan for work and they sent me on the campus shuttle. I'm sitting in some of the worst traffic I've seen in my 2 years here. I need stimulus!
Horb Posted February 6, 2014 Posted February 6, 2014 Well after yesterday's bloodbath I'm kind of happy for a reprieve.
Megeen Posted February 6, 2014 Posted February 6, 2014 What was difficult about your degree? I mean, I know German ones are a bit different, but it didn't seem to different to me when I was there. It's called "Staatsexamen" and it's a graduate degree (MA level) without a separate undergrad although you have to take undergrad level classes first and then grad level. For a lot of subjects, they've started to switch to BA and MA recently, but when I began, that wasn't an option yet.
cbttcher Posted February 6, 2014 Posted February 6, 2014 It's called "Staatsexamen" and it's a graduate degree (MA level) without a separate undergrad although you have to take undergrad level classes first and then grad level. For a lot of subjects, they've started to switch to BA and MA recently, but when I began, that wasn't an option yet. It's weird that they don't know because a lot of universities list the Staatsexamen as an admission requirement (or an MA) for German students. :| Did you notice that in the UNC application, when they ask for your country of residence, they offer the GDR as an option?
Horb Posted February 6, 2014 Posted February 6, 2014 So you would get an MA without getting a BA? But you'd take some undergrad courses? That is a bit different.
Megeen Posted February 6, 2014 Posted February 6, 2014 It's weird that they don't know because a lot of universities list the Staatsexamen as an admission requirement (or an MA) for German students. :| Did you notice that in the UNC application, when they ask for your country of residence, they offer the GDR as an option? Yep, I did and I didn't get any complaints except for grad admins at Penn State with whom I wrote emails back and forth over the course of a week (granted sometimes, they didn't reply for a day or two). It worked out in the end apparently, but it was very annoying because they weren't very clear what they wanted to know. cbttcher 1
cbttcher Posted February 6, 2014 Posted February 6, 2014 So you would get an MA without getting a BA? But you'd take some undergrad courses? That is a bit different. It's more like a combined program of BA and MA. As far as I know from friends, you have examination halfway through your studies which is about equal to my German BA degree and then you immediately go on with your studies.
Megeen Posted February 6, 2014 Posted February 6, 2014 So you would get an MA without getting a BA? But you'd take some undergrad courses? That is a bit different. The whole structure is really different if you get down to it. I've been pursuing a teaching degree since I started studying after high school. You had to decide at the very beginning if you want to do that or if you want a regular degree (then called Diplom). And you only need (get) credit for your subjects, English, Social Studies (my proposed second subject because you need 2) and a little education studies. No additional clusters or classes in other subjects... But let's leave it at that, I've tried to explain the system to American friends before and it's really weird to compare the two
Horb Posted February 6, 2014 Posted February 6, 2014 Yeah they seem completely different and without a good model of comparison. It sounds interesting though
Megeen Posted February 6, 2014 Posted February 6, 2014 It's more like a combined program of BA and MA. As far as I know from friends, you have examination halfway through your studies which is about equal to my German BA degree and then you immediately go on with your studies. Yes, but even once you have the intermediate exam and if you decided to leave school then, you don't have an actual degree because being half-way through your studies doesn't qualify you for anything.
Megeen Posted February 6, 2014 Posted February 6, 2014 (edited) Yeah they seem completely different and without a good model of comparison. It sounds interesting though Interesting is one word for it Every state also has slightly different rules and regulations. To study English for example, I had to pass a Latin exam here in Northrhine Westfalia and most other states don't require that at all. But seriously, don't worry about it. The system is gonna be gone soon anyway... Edited February 6, 2014 by Megeen
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